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Thread: 2 Yard Line

  1. #31
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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    I have no problem with the call. Jackson wasn't getting much done, or else his blocking wasn't getting much done. It was just a poor decision by Sam to let it go. Rookies will be rookies.

    I'd do it again.


  2. #32
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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I outlined what I saw in my post - four DL in standard formation (as in not bunched/pinched inside), three linebackers playing a few yards off the ball, and a safety aligned b/t the slot receiver and the RT. The guy in the back behind the LBs is a ref. Again, I wouldn't call this "bunched up."

    Rams rank second to last in the league on first down % when rushing on third and short; only Carolina is worse. Jackson has one of the worst touchdown percentages in the NFC (let alone the league) when running inside the ten. Pounding Jackson was far from a guarantee, either.

    This is a play they've practiced all week and has reportedly looked good. It's a play that the previous team of both the head coach and OC used quite successfully with their offense. It didn't work out this time, but it certainly can work well in this situation. Again, just look at the video.
    LOL. the ref!!! you must think I'm an idiot. There are 4 linebackers standing on the blue line under the word Rams protecting the run and 4 down linemen. Yes, the deep guy under the goal is the REF standing on the M in the word RAMS but all 8 are infront of him. There is also a ref standing out of bounds behind them all.

    ok, we are poor on 3rd and short and Jackson may be the worst running back ever, but I would still hand him the ball and try for TD or do play action and toss it in the flat. worst situation is that Jackson fumbles and the Falcons get it on the one or we toss it out of bounds. There is always 4th down and a field goal.

    The video you showed us was of a pitch forward to Westbrook. The play we did today was a pitch forward to Falcon player. I fail to see where there is a simularity, but then again I'm an idiot that can't tell the difference between a ref and a football player.
    Last edited by lordwhttgr; -11-22-2010 at 01:46 AM.

  3. #33
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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Quote Originally Posted by lordwhttgr View Post
    LOL. the ref!!! you must think I'm an idiot. There are 4 linebackers standing on the blue line under the word Rams protecting the run and 4 down linemen. Yes, the deep guy under the goal is the REF standing on the M in the word RAMS but all 8 are infront of him. There is also a ref standing out of bounds behind them all.
    No, I don't think you're an idiot. I'm simply trying to be as explicit as possible, since there seems to be some confusion as to what the Falcons were doing/lining up. Having gone back and watched the replay a few more times, it seems we're both mistaken - there are only two linebackers but five DBs on the field. I've now gone back and labeled each of the 11 Falcons players to better identify them. There are four DL (circled in green), two linebackers (circled in blue), and five DBs (circled in red):



    The upper-most player on the blue line under the word RAMS is William Moore, the safety who actually makes the INT. The player at the end of the blue line under the word RAMS is #28 Thomas DeCloud, another safety. The two guys between them are linebackers, and the three players opposite our receivers are cornerbacks. So the Rams were essentially facing a nickel alignment, and with the DL spread in a pretty standard set-up rather than pinched or slid inside, I'm still failing to see how this constitutes a "bunched up" formation that would have been impossible to execute a shovel pass against.


    Quote Originally Posted by lordwhttgr View Post
    ok, we are poor on 3rd and short and Jackson may be the worst running back ever, but I would still hand him the ball and try for TD or do play action and toss it in the flat. worst situation is that Jackson fumbles and the Falcons get it on the one or we toss it out of bounds. There is always 4th down and a field goal.
    There is not always fourth down and a field goal; as you said, Jackson could fumble on his run. There's a risk for something bad happening on any play; a Jackson run on third and short isn't a guarantee, as we saw earlier in the game.

    It's easy to say what we should have done when a play goes horribly wrong, but if this play is executed properly - if Goldberg isn't blown up, if Hoomanawanui doesn't get blocked on his route, and if Bradford doesn't throw a blind pass to no one - then there's a good chance it works. As the video shows, you actually can call this play in this situation and be successful.

    But you've got to execute it, and the Rams failed in nearly every way in terms of executing it. That's on the players, not the coaches.


    Quote Originally Posted by lordwhttgr View Post
    The video you showed us was of a pitch forward to Westbrook. The play we did today was a pitch forward to Falcon player. I fail to see where there is a simularity, but then again I'm an idiot that can't tell the difference between a ref and a football player.
    Not sure what to say to this, since it appears you're being facetious.

  4. #34
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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    oK, I surender. I guess I hate the whole play because I fail to see who Bradford was supposed to pass it too. Westbrook came out of the backfield and crossed the quarterback on his way to the hole and I saw no one do that in this play. Busted play? Some one forgot their role? I dont know. The actions of the Falcons indicated to me they were going to jam the line and stop the run. Hence bunched up. Look at the helmets of the Falcons in the picture, they are all watching Jackson in motion. Play action would have worked, but who knows as we can't go back and try. I don't like the play they called as it is more of a fake pass to send the coverage down field away from the real play, which would be a draw up the middle. On the two yard line, there is noplace for the coverage to go. Yes it worked in the video with Westbrook. Everything they tried was working on us in that game.

    It is like AV said, give Bradford some options and let him make some plays. I trust in him to do the right thing. And if that is throwing some picks trying to make plays well we can be no worse off than where we were with Warner and he turned out ok.

    And I still have faith in Jackson to run over a player on his way to the Endzone.

    Rewatched the play 10 times. The ball was supposed to go to Illinois Mike which ran into his own player as the falcons had great penetration to Sam Bradford. Sam Bradford makes the tackle after pitching to the falcons player. Also Jackson was not in motion at the start of the play.
    Last edited by lordwhttgr; -11-22-2010 at 05:14 AM.

  5. #35
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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Who's to say pounding Jackson would have worked? Steven Jackson's touchdown percentage when running inside the ten yard line is pretty poor, 18th in the NFC alone.
    At that point, we're in 4 down territory. It's true that SJ has not been the best back in short yardage situations, but when a team is in the position of needing two yards over the next two plays, that's not the time to take chances. It was a fluke result, but calling a play where the quarterback is going to toss it before he sees what is going on carries an unnecessary level of risk in that situation.

    It is fair to raise the whole coaching vs. execution issue, though. Yes, I question Shurmur's call there, but when your right guard gets shoved so hard he knocks the intended receiver off his feet, clearly it's not just the play-calling that's the problem.

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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    I have been quiet for most of the year other than on game day in the chat room. I was going to post on this subject and saw that it ha been pretty well covered showing the transgression of Shurmur using it in Philly and the play on Sunday.
    Here is the major difference , as shown on video, when Shurmur designed the shuttle "0" pass play in philly, it was designed to 1) spread the D out 2) draw interior linemen past the 1st level allowing the " reciever" of the pass a lane underneath while the off linemen get to the second level of defense to block lbs and safeties. That works well ( as any thing does) with the right personell and the right execution. The MAJOR problem I had with the play was not the play itself but the personell grouping.
    Ill Mike is by no means a Brian Westbrook. The closet person on the squad that compares by size and speed to Westbrook is Darby. When drawing up this play in practice, none of the coaches thought that a 300lb te would have trouble getting through the congestion of the 1st level on the goalline??? There is not much deception (which is 50% of why this play was succesful in Philly) with a 300 6'2 te attempting to slide through ( if possible) the o line letting the d line release on the 1st level, and we saw what happens with that mindset. The OC has to be accountable for personnel if nothing else. Execution is on the players and of course they didnt do well. But in this case Shurmur failed miserably. We are already dealing with the shortcomings at wr and te and to not fully utilize available and proper personnel cost us a Huge opportunity.
    Note to Shurmur- On "short and goal" , spend mental energy properly designing way to get your best off players the best opprtunity to get what we need. In this case you didnt and we the fans saw the outcome of this on Sunday

  7. #37
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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    To be honest, I do not think that running it with Jackson would have done anything, frankly.


    On the shovel pass play, our o-line looked tired and they all got pushed back, especially Goldberg. What makes you think that if we ran it instead, that our o-line wouldn't get pushed back still?


    I don't think it was the best call for that situation, and would have preferred a play-action roll-out that has worked so much this season, or just continue with Bradford in the shotgun and have Amendola run a short slant. However, this wasn't a bad call, it was just poorly executed.

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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    It doesn't matter what anybody thinks about the shovel pass play call, Bradford should not have thrown the pass, period ...

    Rookie mistake, he'll learn from it ....

  9. #39
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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    With the defensive line-up the Falcons had on the field...4 down lineman, 2 LBs and 5 DBs I would have have like to see Bradford change the play to a run up the middle by Jackson.

    GO RAMS!

  10. #40
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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Theres no excuse for calling a shuffle pass to the back up TE on third and goal from the 2 yd line.
    I dont care if it works or not. Pound with SJAx, Run play action roll out (which the usually do and I like) or go shotgun and hit DA on that 2 yd route inside/outside slant.

    No excuse to go shuffle pass to the back up TE from the 2 yd line. None.

    Not saying we would have won the game as odds are we would not have, but to see us taken out of the game like that was sickening

  11. #41
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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Quote Originally Posted by lordwhttgr View Post
    Yes it worked in the video with Westbrook. Everything they tried was working on us in that game.
    It wasn't just us. They successfully used it later that year. It was an effective part of their goal-to-go playbook. Teams like the Chargers and Colts have used it successfully in the same situation as well.

    It’s natural after a poor play to go back and say what they should have done, but there’s no guarantee that play-action or a Jackson run up the gut works either. It’s the old “grass is always greener” philosophy – the play that wasn’t called and thus wasn’t ineffective is better than the one that was called and was ineffective.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    At that point, we're in 4 down territory. It's true that SJ has not been the best back in short yardage situations, but when a team is in the position of needing two yards over the next two plays, that's not the time to take chances. It was a fluke result, but calling a play where the quarterback is going to toss it before he sees what is going on carries an unnecessary level of risk in that situation.

    It is fair to raise the whole coaching vs. execution issue, though. Yes, I question Shurmur's call there, but when your right guard gets shoved so hard he knocks the intended receiver off his feet, clearly it's not just the play-calling that's the problem.
    Gordon paraphrased some of Bradford's post-game comments about the play in his game-day chat, and his quote was that Sam "didn't know what went wrong, but he realizes he can't pitch the ball into the fray blindly." So it's probably safe to say the play didn't call for a blind shovel pass or for Sam to throw the ball before he sees what is going on. Sam just threw it to where he thought Mike would be rather than realizing the play had broken down and adjusting. Rookie mistake, IMO.


    Quote Originally Posted by ram1906 View Post
    I have been quiet for most of the year other than on game day in the chat room. I was going to post on this subject and saw that it ha been pretty well covered showing the transgression of Shurmur using it in Philly and the play on Sunday.
    Here is the major difference , as shown on video, when Shurmur designed the shuttle "0" pass play in philly, it was designed to 1) spread the D out 2) draw interior linemen past the 1st level allowing the " reciever" of the pass a lane underneath while the off linemen get to the second level of defense to block lbs and safeties. That works well ( as any thing does) with the right personell and the right execution. The MAJOR problem I had with the play was not the play itself but the personell grouping.
    Ill Mike is by no means a Brian Westbrook. The closet person on the squad that compares by size and speed to Westbrook is Darby. When drawing up this play in practice, none of the coaches thought that a 300lb te would have trouble getting through the congestion of the 1st level on the goalline??? There is not much deception (which is 50% of why this play was succesful in Philly) with a 300 6'2 te attempting to slide through ( if possible) the o line letting the d line release on the 1st level, and we saw what happens with that mindset. The OC has to be accountable for personnel if nothing else. Execution is on the players and of course they didnt do well. But in this case Shurmur failed miserably. We are already dealing with the shortcomings at wr and te and to not fully utilize available and proper personnel cost us a Huge opportunity.
    Note to Shurmur- On "short and goal" , spend mental energy properly designing way to get your best off players the best opprtunity to get what we need. In this case you didnt and we the fans saw the outcome of this on Sunday
    A couple of things…

    1) I doubt Shurmur, as the QB coach in Philadelphia, was responsible for designing the play for the Eagles. Could be wrong, I guess, but I don’t think that’s very likely.

    2) The Rams’ play was also designed to spread the D out, hence its use of three wide receivers. In fact, I believe the Rams’ formation is very similar to the one the Eagles used in the video I posted. And if you watch the replay, the DL actually does penetrate past the first level - perhaps even a bit too much. When Bradford actually makes the pitch, all four DL seem to be behind the line of scrimmage. The problem occurs when Mike gets hung up between Brown and Goldberg, who are still engaged with defenders that basically blew by them.

    3) Mike is not a 300 pound tight end. He’s listed at 264. Also, the Chargers have run this play successfully with Antonio Gates, so using a tight end is not unheard of or inherently the wrong choice. Mike has shown himself to be a weapon in the passing game, and on his touchdown catch, he actually did a great job of weaving through short yardage traffic to cross the field and get separation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alec22 View Post
    No excuse to go shuffle pass to the back up TE from the 2 yd line. None.
    If there was no excuse for the play call, then I doubt you'd see other teams using it in the same situation. As for whether or not it should have gone to Hoomanawanui, you could make the case that he's as effective a receiving target as any non-WR on this team, particularly in this game where he already had a touchdown grab.
    Last edited by Nick; -11-22-2010 at 01:09 PM.

  12. #42
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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    It wasn't just us. They successfully used it later that year. It was an effective part of their goal-to-go playbook. Teams like the Chargers and Colts have used it successfully in the same situation as well.

    It’s natural after a poor play to go back and say what they should have done, but there’s no guarantee that play-action or a Jackson run up the gut works either. It’s the old “grass is always greener” philosophy – the play that wasn’t called and thus wasn’t ineffective is better than the one that was called and was ineffective.

    Gordon paraphrased some of Bradford's post-game comments about the play in his game-day chat, and his quote was that Sam "didn't know what went wrong, but he realizes he can't pitch the ball into the fray blindly." So it's probably safe to say the play didn't call for a blind shovel pass or for Sam to throw the ball before he sees what is going on. Sam just threw it to where he thought Mike would be rather than realizing the play had broken down and adjusting. Rookie mistake, IMO.




    A couple of things…

    1) I doubt Shurmur, as the QB coach in Philadelphia, was responsible for designing the play for the Eagles. Could be wrong, I guess, but I don’t think that’s very likely.

    2) The Rams’ play was also designed to spread the D out, hence its use of three wide receivers. In fact, I believe the Rams’ formation is very similar to the one the Eagles used in the video I posted. And if you watch the replay, the DL actually does penetrate past the first level - perhaps even a bit too much. When Bradford actually makes the pitch, all four DL seem to be behind the line of scrimmage. The problem occurs when Mike gets hung up between Brown and Goldberg, who are still engaged with defenders that basically blew by them.

    3) Mike is not a 300 pound tight end. He’s listed at 264. Also, the Chargers have run this play successfully with Antonio Gates, so using a tight end is not unheard of or inherently the wrong choice. Mike has shown himself to be a weapon in the passing game, and on his touchdown catch, he actually did a great job of weaving through short yardage traffic to cross the field and get separation.




    If there was no excuse for the play call, then I doubt you'd see other teams using it in the same situation. As for whether or not it should have gone to Hoomanawanui, you could make the case that he's as effective a receiving target as any non-WR on this team, particularly in this game where he already had a touchdown grab.
    There is nothing to be said to those that want to blame this on Shurmur. He'll be wrong no matter what.

    If they had ran Jackson unsuccessfully there, they would be complaining about the like of creativity ...

    A shovel pass is one of the safest plays in the game. Bradford shouldn't have thrown it, period.

  13. #43
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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Most of Shurmur's stuff is pretty predictable, so I'd rather he think outside the box more like a goal-line shovel pass. That might have been the most creative play he thought of this year had it worked. I'd rather be critical of the 3rd and short where Jackson didn't get it done. Honestly, it's felt like Bradford has been our whole offense this year, which isn't good considering our O-Line and SJax have been relatively healthy this year.

  14. #44
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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    There was a ton of space for Uh-Oh to catch the pass and fall forward for a TD if he didn't get stuck behind Goldberg. I actually think they were getting pushed back to make more space for the shovel pass, but did a bad job of it. Bradford should have just thrown it away or tucked it down, and he knows he make a mistake by chucking it blindly at the goal line. I didn't mind the play itself, but there should of been a backup option like a fade to Gibson if the shovel pass was taken away.

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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    So you run the ball from the two yard line, even though Jackson doesn't look good to you lately and you believe he's hesitant when running. Not sure I follow you there.




    Some would disagree...

    YouTube - NFL 2008 - Week 1 - Rams 3 Eagles 38

    Start at the 0:40 minute mark. Westbrook actually had another short-yardage shovel pass touchdown later that season against the Cardinals. It's been an effective offensive component for the Eagles, where both Spags and Shurmur have roots.




    Here's a screen shot...



    The Falcons have the standard four DL, both ends are lined up either over or outside the tackles, and the three LBs are playing three yards off the LOS. The safety is cheating up but he's covering the space between the line and the slot receiver. I guess I just don't see where this alignment represents a bunched up defense.

    As for your comment about it being a poorly designed play, Hoomanwanui said post-game that it had been working great in practice all week.
    thats fine Nick, you can put all the stats and pictures and whatever else you want up there but I think there are other plays that might have been better choices at that point and field position plus the fact that it worked in practice means nothing and because it worked for the Eagles really has nothing to do with it either.

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