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Thread: 2 Yard Line

  1. #46
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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Gordon paraphrased some of Bradford's post-game comments about the play in his game-day chat, and his quote was that Sam "didn't know what went wrong, but he realizes he can't pitch the ball into the fray blindly." So it's probably safe to say the play didn't call for a blind shovel pass or for Sam to throw the ball before he sees what is going on. Sam just threw it to where he thought Mike would be rather than realizing the play had broken down and adjusting. Rookie mistake, IMO.
    Fair enough. It looked to me like it might be the kind of play where the quarterback might not actually get enough time to see that the guy was in position before he threw it. On the NFL.com replay, the ball hasn't been snapped yet at :03 in, and by :05 the ball is going the other way. The play barely took longer than a normal toss to the runningback. But maybe it was just a rookie mistake.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    2) The Rams’ play was also designed to spread the D out, hence its use of three wide receivers. In fact, I believe the Rams’ formation is very similar to the one the Eagles used in the video I posted. And if you watch the replay, the DL actually does penetrate past the first level - perhaps even a bit too much. When Bradford actually makes the pitch, all four DL seem to be behind the line of scrimmage. The problem occurs when Mike gets hung up between Brown and Goldberg, who are still engaged with defenders that basically blew by them.
    All the more reason to run in that situation. Of course, seeing how badly the line got blown up there, we probably wouldn't have gotten much if we tried running it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    3) Mike is not a 300 pound tight end. He’s listed at 264. Also, the Chargers have run this play successfully with Antonio Gates, so using a tight end is not unheard of or inherently the wrong choice. Mike has shown himself to be a weapon in the passing game, and on his touchdown catch, he actually did a great job of weaving through short yardage traffic to cross the field and get separation

    If there was no excuse for the play call, then I doubt you'd see other teams using it in the same situation. As for whether or not it should have gone to Hoomanawanui, you could make the case that he's as effective a receiving target as any non-WR on this team, particularly in this game where he already had a touchdown grab.
    I'd take that a step further. If you are going to throw in that situation, I don't know anyone on the team (wide receivers included) that would be a better target than the 6'4", 264 lb. tight end with soft hands.


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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Quote Originally Posted by jkramsfan View Post
    thats fine Nick, you can put all the stats and pictures and whatever else you want up there but I think there are other plays that might have been better choices at that point and field position plus the fact that it worked in practice means nothing and because it worked for the Eagles really has nothing to do with it either.
    Alright, if no amount of information to the contrary is going to convince you otherwise, then there's not much left to say here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    All the more reason to run in that situation. Of course, seeing how badly the line got blown up there, we probably wouldn't have gotten much if we tried running it.
    Especially when you consider how poorly they blocked an earlier 3rd & Short attempt.
    Last edited by Nick; -11-22-2010 at 10:16 PM.

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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    I'll just say that it looks like a boneheaded play because it was executed poorly, but if it worked everyone would be hailing Shurmur as a genius.

    I think it might have been Bobby Cox who said the line between being a genius and being an idiot is if the play was successful. Seems obvious enough, but his point really was that just because a creative play didn't work doesn't mean it was stupid to try it. Generally, I am in agreement.

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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    I see shumur screwing this up. If steven Jackson didn't make the first down, which he did against the ***** no one was complaining about him then. We wouldve kicked a field goal. 3 points an a chance at another touchdown barring a st.louis rams stop.

    People say that fans blame shurmur. UM YEA. I blame shurmur because the Rams defense was on the field for 36 minutes apposed to our offensive 23 minutes of the game. I heard one of the announcers say it. The Rams offense can not stay on the field, therefor the defense doing well in the first half, but because of so much minutes played, any person with common sense can see that after that much time on the field, your going to get tired. Our third down efficiency is 1 for 10. at 10 percent efficiency on third down, due to the predictability of shurmur. And its not our offensive line either, we can probably also credit bradford's mobility. But we didn't get sacked at all.

    Rams offense has only an average of 18 points per game. WHY CAN WE NOT SCORE MORE THAN THAT? Even when we played against Carolina?

    And why did we not stay on the field as long as Atlanta. "12" running plays compared to 31 carries of turner. Our pro-bowl back only got 11 touches, compared to last weeks 20. Steven jackson has a season average of 4.5 ypc, and no fumbles. HAND IT OFF PLEASE! Why would you stray away from the running game? Considering atlanta's defense is mediocre against the run. Our average gain per rushing play was 5.6 ypc RUN THE BALL! Shurmur's play calling is completely frustrating to me. You Shurmur supporters can't see it but he is a doomsday device of an already pretty talented offense. I have watched every game this season and i see some promising talent on the rams, but poor decisions by coaches.

    stop supporting him.
    Last edited by hawaiianpunch; -11-23-2010 at 03:56 AM.

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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiianpunch View Post
    Rams offense has only an average of 18 points per game. WHY CAN WE NOT SCORE MORE THAN THAT? Even when we played against Carolina?
    Actually Carolina has one of the better defenses in the league, in particular their pass defense which is 7th in the league in fewest yards allowed. Their run defense isn't as solid, but they aren't inept at D either. Their main problems revolve around a putrid offense.

    I'm not defending or bashing Shurmur, just pointing out that playing Carolina is not a cure-all for offensive woes.

  6. #51
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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiianpunch View Post
    I see shumur screwing this up. If steven Jackson didn't make the first down, which he did against the ***** no one was complaining about him then. We wouldve kicked a field goal. 3 points an a chance at another touchdown barring a st.louis rams stop.
    I'm not sure what you're referring to here - the Rams ran the ball with Steven Jackson twice on third down against San Francisco last week, and didn't convert either of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiianpunch View Post
    People say that fans blame shurmur. UM YEA. I blame shurmur because the Rams defense was on the field for 36 minutes apposed to our offensive 23 minutes of the game. I heard one of the announcers say it. The Rams offense can not stay on the field, therefor the defense doing well in the first half, but because of so much minutes played, any person with common sense can see that after that much time on the field, your going to get tired. Our third down efficiency is 1 for 10. at 10 percent efficiency on third down, due to the predictability of shurmur. And its not our offensive line either, we can probably also credit bradford's mobility. But we didn't get sacked at all.
    I don't think anyone is saying Shurmur doesn't share some responsibility in our offense's struggles. Go back and read some of my posts over the season, and you'll find I've been pretty critical of him at times.

    However, the players aren't blameless in this, it doesn't just all fall on Shurmur. It's not the offensive coordinator's fault, for instance, that after the Falcons took the lead, Jacob Bell gets caught holding and what should have been 3rd & 9 becomes 2nd & 20.

    Go back to the San Francisco game. Three drives stalled not because of playcalling but because, on two of them, Brandon Gibson failed to turn upfield to make easy conversions on receptions, and on another one, Bradford threw behind Gibson and the pass was incomplete.

    It's not all the playcalling; the players have to execute when there are plays there to be made, and that's the point many of us are making here. The play was there to be made had it been blocked properly. If Hoomanawanui releases cleanly, he catches the ball at the 1 or 2 yard line, and the only guy standing in his way is safety William Moore. I'll take that match-up any day.

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiianpunch View Post
    And why did we not stay on the field as long as Atlanta. "12" running plays compared to 31 carries of turner. Our pro-bowl back only got 11 touches, compared to last weeks 20. Steven jackson has a season average of 4.5 ypc, and no fumbles. HAND IT OFF PLEASE! Why would you stray away from the running game? Considering atlanta's defense is mediocre against the run. Our average gain per rushing play was 5.6 ypc RUN THE BALL! Shurmur's play calling is completely frustrating to me. You Shurmur supporters can't see it but he is a doomsday device of an already pretty talented offense. I have watched every game this season and i see some promising talent on the rams, but poor decisions by coaches.

    stop supporting him.
    Jackson's season average per carry is actually 4.0 yards, a half a yard shorter on average than your number. If it holds at that number, it will be the lowest of his career.

    The Rams actually had a 5.9 yards-per-carry average in this game, but it's notable that the average factors in a 17-yard scramble by Bradford on a called pass play. Jackson averaged 4.9 yards-per-carry on eleven touches, but 43 of Jackson's 54 yards came on four carries. On the other seven carries, he gained only nine yards. This is not a running game that is consistently gaining positive yards, in part because the offensive line is not consistently opening up running lanes for Steven Jackson.

    As for running the ball more, Spagnuolo said after the game that more run plays were called but were changed (I'm assuming at the line) based on what the defense was showing.

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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post

    As for running the ball more, Spagnuolo said after the game that more run plays were called but were changed (I'm assuming at the line) based on what the defense was showing.
    To me it is impressive that they allow Bradford to change plays at the line already. They've been doing it for a while, and it is not very usual for a rookie to be given that much freedom. I would venture that some people will claim he must not be very good at it since we weren't gaining first downs, but there is no guarantee Jackson would have done anything but hit the line and get nothing more.

    Bradford won't always make the right call on those, he is still learning, but hopefully continuing to get better. And I think it is hard to argue he isn't getting better.

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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Who's to say pounding Jackson would have worked? Steven Jackson's touchdown percentage when running inside the ten yard line is pretty poor, 18th in the NFC alone...
    I agree with Nick. Our O-line isn't exactly plowing out big holes when the defense isn't stacked up and compressed by the endline. While the shovel pass didn't work, I too applaud the effort to try something different.
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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Sjax had 10 fewer touches against the Falcons (14 vs 24 avg).

    Sjax said "I like to be in the flow of the game and touch the ball on each and every drive," Jackson said. "When they keep you on the sideline for so long, it makes it hard to get into a rhythm."

    Trying something new is commendable; the NFL is driven by innovation. But sometimes, coaches over think things and end up tricking themselves when they should just pound the rock. Its boring and dull, but what is going to define this team in end?

    I am not arguing against opening up the playbook, but when teams pull riskier plays in the red zone, they risk getting burned. Additionally, we must have some other options for moving the ball on the ground beside 'running Sjax up the middle', so not all arguments against throwing the ball around in the red-zone are automatically arguments for 'running Sjax up the middle'.

    Sjax is a playmaker, I vote that we put the ball into his hands.
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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Quote Originally Posted by BM_Face View Post
    Trying something new is commendable; the NFL is driven by innovation. But sometimes, coaches over think things and end up tricking themselves when they should just pound the rock. Its boring and dull, but what is going to define this team in end?
    I'm still confused as to why the team should have pounded the rock in this situation.

    The Rams have one of the league's worst conversion percentages when running on third and short. They are third in the league in negative plays when running up the middle. Steven Jackson converts only 10% of his runs inside the ten yard line for touchdowns.

    Pulling from Bernie's Monday article, on 3rd down and needing 1 or 2 yards, the Rams have rushed 11 times for 17 yards, a 1.5 yard per carry average that ranks 28th among the 32 teams. Steven Jackson has 12 yards on 8 carries in short-yardage runs on 3rd down this season.

    Simply put, these aren't good numbers. So despite all of these stats, why would the Rams have pounded the rock in this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by BM_Face View Post
    I am not arguing against opening up the playbook, but when teams pull riskier plays in the red zone, they risk getting burned.
    I'm pretty sure that, because the shovel pass play failed as bad as it did, there's now some kind of perception that it's a really risky play. That appears to be pretty inaccurate.

    Quoting Spagnuolo after the game on not seeing shovel passes intercepted very often: “No, it’s usually a touchdown or incompletion or stop, and then you kick the field goal. It’s a pretty safe play in my opinion. We would have never thought that, but…” When NFLN was going over the highlight for this play on their Sunday night show, Steve Mariucci said immediately after the interception that it was a safe play in that situation.

    But when it's executed as poorly as it was - when Goldberg (and Brown as well, when you watch the replay) allow immediate inside penetration, when Hoomanawanui gets shielded from running his route, and when the rookie quarterback throws blindly to a spot rather than recognizing the play has broken down - then yes, it becomes a risky play. Not because the play itself is inherently risky, but because bad things can happen on any play when the execution breaks down so fundamentally.

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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Shurmur is a bit of a hypocrite with his ultra conservative playcalling all year. Then in this biggest game of the year, on a goal line series he calls the Shovel Pass.

    I don't know if we used this play at all this season. Shurmur needs to give SJax the ball on 2nd down. Bradford should be rolling out in the red zone if he is passing the ball.

    Our team as a whole looks great and but if you had to pick one point that has lagged behind, it would be offensive playcalling.

    Bradford needs to be smarter with that play, but then again I still don't think we should have called it.

    We lost game 4 games that we could have won based on 1 play going our way late.

    This is a great sign for next year, but we can pack it up because we can beat anyone without scoring the ball.
    Last edited by richtree; -11-23-2010 at 12:51 PM. Reason: font color

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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    A ridiculous play. I would put every single game for the rest of the season on the line for Jackson's chances of getting 2 yds on 2 plays. Against anyone.

    I heard Clayton on 101.1 ESPN this morning speaking on the subject. Something he said made me so angry i wanted to scream at my radio. I'm paraphrasing here. "Do you want him to be creative or do you want our OC to just do what is expected in that situation". If what is expected is for the Rams to rely on their only perennial pro bowler to get 2 yds, then yes. OF COURSE. Anything else is a joke.

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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Quote Originally Posted by richtree View Post
    Shurmur is a bit of a hypocrite with his ultra conservative playcalling all year. Then in this biggest game of the year, on a goal line series he calls the Shovel Pass.
    You've lost me as to how this makes him a hypocrite.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinHasAnAxe View Post
    I would put every single game for the rest of the season on the line for Jackson's chances of getting 2 yds on 2 plays. Against anyone.
    That's a strange thing to say, given how poor the Rams have been converting short yardage situations with the run (see earlier numbers).

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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    You've lost me as to how this makes him a hypocrite.



    That's a strange thing to say, given how poor the Rams have been converting short yardage situations with the run (see earlier numbers).
    As I am in complete agreement with Nick on this subject, and he is handling the argument so admirably, I submit the following as a response to any further retorts that Nick might have to the opposition, "Ditto".

    Thank you. That is all.
    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!!

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    Re: 2 Yard Line

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    That's a strange thing to say, given how poor the Rams have been converting short yardage situations with the run (see earlier numbers).
    I disagree. To be honest i dont see how anyone could come to the conclusion that Jackson is not our best option in that situation despite the numbers.

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