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Thread: 3-4 next year?

  1. #1
    39thebeast's Avatar
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    3-4 next year?

    According to Bernie on his radio show and reconfirmed on the STLToday site, he said that if Linehan and Haslett are back next year, there will be a 3-4 defense installation and it has been talked about that later this year we might even see at least some formations of it. Linehan is supposedly trying to get "Creative" on defense and fool offenses that way when your talent isn't the best in the league.

    I don't think this is a half bad idea even though i doubt (or want) linehan will be back.

    RDE- Adam Carriker/ James Hall
    LDE- Claude Wrotten/ Glover
    NT- Clifton Ryan
    WLB- Leonard Little
    SMLB- Chillar/ Draft
    WMLB- Spoon/ Pisa
    SLB- Vernon Gholston
    CB- Tye Hill
    CB- Fakihr Brown
    SS- Corey Chavous
    FS- OJ Otogwe

    I don't think this would be a bad idea. You might say the LB are to small, but if you look at the weight of other 3-4 MLB's with the exception of Adalius Thomas who is 270 all the other MLB are in the same weight range as Spoon and chillar. If you look at the 3-4 olbs they are also in the same weight range as little and Gholston (who we would obviously draft). The question is how good would they be standing up and in pass coverage.


  2. #2
    RedArcher7 Guest

    Re: 3-4 next year?

    That's a lot of money you have not doing a whole lot.

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    Lightbulb Re: 3-4 next year?

    Hmm.... interesting. I didn't know a whole lot about Vernon Gholston but knew he was Big Ten D-Linemen of the year (obviously meaning he was great). Here is some more info on him:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=10412 View Post
    Name: Vernon Gholston
    College: Ohio State Number: 50
    Height: 6-4 Weight: 258
    Position: DE Pos2: OLB
    Class/Draft Year: rJr/2009
    40 Time: 4.67 40 Low: 4.56 40 High: 4.76
    Projected Round: 1 Stock: Rated number 1 out of 119 DE's
    2 / 1551 TOTAL
    ^It seems from what I've read here he won't go pro until the year after next (graduation year).

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=10412 View Post
    11/20/07 - Big Ten Defensive Lineman of the Year: Gholston led the Big Ten with 10.0 sacks during conference play to become the fifth Buckeye to nab Defensive Lineman of the Year laurels and the first since Smith was honored in 2003. In all games, the junior defensive end ranked second in the conference and sixth nationally with 13.0 sacks to equal the school single-season record set by Mike Vrabel in 1995, when he won the first of two straight Big Ten Defensive Lineman of the Year awards. Gholston was part of a pass-rushing unit which tied for second in the Big Ten and fourth nationally with 42 sacks on the season. OSU currently tops the country in all games by allowing only 10.7 points, 225.2 yards of total offense and 148.2 yards of passing offense per game while ranking third nationally by giving up only 77.1 rushing yards per outing. - Big Ten Sports
    I don't think the Rams can count on him for next year, but I also agree as stated above that a 3-4 with or without Linny would be something to experiment with. But I also wish our LBs were a bit bigger.
    Last edited by prof22693; -11-23-2007 at 07:37 PM. Reason: several things to change

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    Re: 3-4 next year?

    Quote Originally Posted by 39thebeast View Post
    RDE- Adam Carriker/ James Hall
    LDE- Claude Wrotten/ Glover
    NT- Clifton Ryan
    WLB- Leonard Little
    SMLB- Chillar/ Draft
    WMLB- Spoon/ Pisa
    SLB- Vernon Gholston
    CB- Tye Hill
    CB- Fakihr Brown
    SS- Corey Chavous
    FS- OJ Otogwe

    Vernon Gholston? Just how low do you expect us to be drafting?

    Or, conversely, Just how much do you expect his to to rise?

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    Re: 3-4 next year?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bar-bq View Post
    Vernon Gholston? Just how low do you expect us to be drafting?

    Or, conversely, Just how much do you expect his to to rise?
    He's rated the top DE, but I don't think he will go pro this year (at least thats what nfldraftscout.com says)

    and anyway, how do any of us know we will end up with him 2 years from now? i highly doubt it.

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    Re: 3-4 next year?

    Quote Originally Posted by 39thebeast View Post
    RDE- Adam Carriker/ James Hall
    LDE- Claude Wrotten/ Glover
    NT- Clifton Ryan
    WLB- Leonard Little
    SMLB- Chillar/ Draft
    WMLB- Spoon/ Pisa
    SLB- Vernon Gholston
    CB- Tye Hill
    CB- Fakihr Brown
    SS- Corey Chavous
    FS- OJ Otogwe
    Well, first, Wroten and Glover aren't exactly defensive ends in any means, as I wouldn't want to trust them in coverage or to cover the edge.

    Second, you can't have Pisa as a backup, he's the second best linebacker we have.

    Last, Chavous isn't starting quality anymore.

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    Re: 3-4 next year?

    Oops, I meant to put my own opinion!

    Carriker and Chris Long at the ends, Ryan at NT.
    Little, Pisa as OLB's, Chillar, Draft, and Spoon in the middle.
    Hill, Brown, and Otogwe stay put, we get a new strong safety from somewhere.

    Backups can generally stay where they are.

  8. #8
    AltiTude Ram Guest

    Re: 3-4 next year?

    I like the way it shapes up myself.

    I'm not sure that it could be imployed this year but it has potential if the right players are drafted for next year.

    I like Chis Long and think he and Carriker along with Ryan could be a force in a 3 man front. I also think the other D-lineman we have currently would help in a 3-4 system.

    The problem is the Linebackers. I'm not sure Little can do much in pass coverage but he can be a force as a OLB rushing the passer and his age is a issue too. Spoon is very versible and could serve as an inside backer or a outside backer. It's going to be hard to fit Pisa into that system and even then we will have the problem of finding more help to fill the void.

    It all comes down to the draft/free agency. If we can find a good inside Linebacker and a good OLB then this could work IMO. It will take time and practice before it produces.

    I guess you just don't know until you try....Maybe the players we have now would fit better into that system. Most were drafted as square pegs and have been forced into round holes already....

    Why not break out the Hammer and make them fit!

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    Re: 3-4 next year?

    Personally, I think the idea (and seemingly non stop discussion) of a 3-4 defensive scheme is wildly overrated

  10. #10
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    Re: 3-4 next year?

    From Jim Thomas earlier this week:

    JC: Hi Jim,

    Bernie wrote last week that the Rams may use a 3-4 defensive alignment next season, provided Haslett returns. What's the thinking behind this move?

    Thanks.

    Jim Thomas: Haslett has a lot more experience over his coaching career running the 4-3 than the 3-4. With the 3-4 _ if you have the proper personnel, which the Rams really don't at this time _ you can do a lot schematically, and with movement, to keep opponents off-balance.
    Joe: The only time SF got a pass rush was when we were in obvious passing downs. So the OL play wasn't as bad as it seemed IMO. I saw that we played Carriker at DE quit a bit and he seemed to do well. If we go to a 3-4, like Bernie mentioned, with Carriker, Ryan, Wroten/Adeyanju on the line, what would our LB crew look like? Would Little be game for the move to OLB and would Pisa be able to rush the passer? If not, what are his cap salaries for the remainder of his contract?

    Jim Thomas: I haven't looked at the tape yet. I hope to tonight. But the o-line play apparently was bad enough that a change will take place this week on the right side. At this stage in his career, it would be tough to expect Little to make a smooth transition to OLB. Particularly when it came to coverage responsibilities. Also, DE James Hall would be somewhat lost in the 3-4. He's probably not big enough to man the outside end position. The Rams would need at least a couple of more LBs to play the 3-4 on a full-time basis. And under that system, I would assume you'd move Witherspoon outside. Who then are the inside backers? Pisa? Chillar (he's unrestricted after this season)? There's a lot. As to your last question, Pisa is playing well and will not be cut.
    Doesn't sound like Thomas is buying into Bernie's story. I'm not either, as I agree we simply do not have the personnel at this time. Look at the teams that run good 3-4 defenses in this league - New England, San Diego, Pittsburgh. Does anyone really think our defense has similar personnel to those units?

    They all have elite talent and size at the nose tackle position (Vince Wilfork, Jamal Williams, Casey Hampton). We do not; Clifton Ryan is progressing as a nose tackle in the 4-3, but I think you're asking a lot for him to be that big dominant anchor in the middle of a 3-4. You could move Carriker outside to DE in this alignment, but at the other DE position, we're not looking at ideal parts with Wroten or Glover, who I believe was underwhelming in Dallas when they tried to make him a 3-4 DE.

    Also, look at the personnel at OLB, one of the most important positions in the 3-4. Do the Rams have a Shawn Merriman or a Shaun Philips? Do they have a Rosevelt Colvin or Mike Vrabel? How about a Joey Porter, James Harrison, or Clark Hagans? We're talking about big 250+ pound guys with excellent height, guys who can take on and beat blocks and defend the run. Guys who can rush the edge and get to the passer. Where is our player like that? Maybe you can plug Witherspoon into that role due to his versatility, but he surely does not have the size you see from the personnel in good 3-4 defenses. And as Thomas said, you can't expect Little to make an effective transition to a standing role this late in his career.

    Then you look at the inside. Many fans have been calling for two years for the Rams to get a true thumping middle linebacker, meaning they don't think we have one now. So if we don't have one now, how are we going to play the 3-4 where we'd need two? Asking someone like Brandon Chillar to shift inside and be one of the two ILB could work as he has the size you look for in that position, and doing so would likely play to his strengths by not asking him to run all around the field. But again, we're not looking at ideal solutions here. What we're looking at is trying to justify the scheme with what we have, and that's never a good way to build an effective unit. We would need at least two more ILB candidates - one definite starter and one potential starter to challenge Chillar at this new position.

    Finally, what does a shift to the 3-4 say about the personnel that haven't been mentioned? Where does James Hall play in a 3-4 alignment? Again, probably too old to effectively make a shift to a full time pass-rushing OLB and is not powerful enough at the point of attack to hold up as a 3-4 DE. He'd be a situational player at best. What about Pisa Tinoisamoa? He's once again emerging as one of our best linebackers right now, but he'd be virtually lost in the 3-4. He does not have the size you want or need to play well as an OLB or ILB in this defensive scheme. He is not good enough at fighting through blocks and traffic to play in the front seven of a 3-4. So what do you do there? What happens to Chris Draft, who again is undersized and would likely not hold up as a front seven player in this scheme because of it?

    IMO, it will take a large shift in personnel - which means not only finding the right guys to fit the scheme but also jettisoning the guys we have that don't - to run an effective 3-4 base scheme here in St. Louis. If Haslett wants to do it off and on by standing up one of his defense ends or something like that, okay. But to make it the base defensive scheme is going to require a lot of tough decisions on a unit that, thus far, has been playing pretty solid football. Why try to change that so drastically?
    Last edited by Nick; -11-24-2007 at 01:36 PM.
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    Re: 3-4 next year?

    The 3-4 Defens gives you many options for coverage schemes, and blitzs

    However, unless you have a dominate front 3 (able to put pressure on the Qb, and contain the run) its not worth trying because its your Tackles and Noseguard that sets up everything. I don't see the Rams as having the talant at those positions to run the 3-4,

  12. #12
    PossumBoy9 Guest

    Re: 3-4 next year?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bar-bq View Post
    Vernon Gholston? Just how low do you expect us to be drafting?

    Or, conversely, Just how much do you expect his to to rise?
    Gholston is Top 10....RIGHT NOW.

    He'll be leaving Columbus as a junior.

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    Re: 3-4 next year?

    Quote Originally Posted by PossumBoy9 View Post
    Gholston is Top 10....RIGHT NOW.

    He'll be leaving Columbus as a junior.
    You really reckon?

    I have him top 20 for sure, but I think right now top 10 is a bit of a stretch. Besides that, I can't see us moving outside of the top five or six this year, meaning that even pick #10 would be a huge improvement on what we've seen so far.

    Scott Wright has this to say, listing Gholston at #27 in his mock draft to the Jaguars; " Vernon Gholston is a physical marvel but he's not just a workout warrior because he has the production to go along with that impressive physique. If he came out early Gholston would likely fit into the first round and he could easily come off the board much earlier than this."

    He's listed as the Number 3 Junior DE behind Calais Campbell and Florida's Derrick Harvey.

    I have him number 3 overall DE behind Campbell and Long.
    Last edited by Bar-bq; -11-24-2007 at 09:01 PM.

  14. #14
    PossumBoy9 Guest

    Re: 3-4 next year?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bar-bq View Post
    You really reckon?

    I have him top 20 for sure, but I think right now top 10 is a bit of a stretch. Besides that, I can't see us moving outside of the top five or six this year, meaning that even pick #10 would be a huge improvement on what we've seen so far.
    This draft isn't very strong at the top. It's certainly not a stretch for a player like Gholston to conceivably end up in the Top 10.

    Scott Wright has this to say, listing Gholston at #27 in his mock draft to the Jaguars; " Vernon Gholston is a physical marvel but he's not just a workout warrior because he has the production to go along with that impressive physique. If he came out early Gholston would likely fit into the first round and he could easily come off the board much earlier than this."

    He's listed as the Number 3 Junior DE behind Calais Campbell and Florida's Derrick Harvey.

    I have him number 3 overall DE behind Campbell and Long.
    Scott Wright is slow sometimes in figuring who will rise and who will fall.

    At this time last year, he had Quentin Moses as a Top 10 pick.

    Calais Campbell scares me.

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    TekeRam's Avatar
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    Re: 3-4 next year?

    Nick brings up a most excellent point and one that I do actually agree with, however I played the game for the sake of the thread. After years(forever) building up 4-3 personnel, in general, you can't jumble them up into a 3-4. Also, with most of our current personnel, we'd have to play a one-gap 3-4 as opposed to a two-gap, meaning that the linemen are only responsible for one gap each and are more like 4-3 linemen in that they are trying to sack the QB just as much as they are trying to tie up blockers. In a two gap system, they're there to tie up blockers and the backers should get the tackles. Both systems work, but if we had better personnel, we could do more two gapping and be a better defense.

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