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  1. #16
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    Re: Am I the only torn person here?

    Quote Originally Posted by rammiser View Post
    I respectfully disagree, a draft pick almost never comes in and contributes in year 1.
    Really? Why do you say that? If you look at the top 15 picks from last season, only Vernon Davis and Brodrick Bunkley aren't making big contributions to their teams. Everyone else?

    Mario Williams, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, AJ Hawk, Michael Huff, Ernie Sims, and Haloti Ngata have all started every game this season for their respective teams.

    Reggie Bush has been a significant contributor on the Saints offense and special teams.

    Vince Young has started eight games for Tennessee and just led the Titans to a 24 point comeback against the Giants.

    Donte Whitner and Kamerion Wimbley have started for their respective teams since Week 2. Matt Leinart is the current leader of the Cardinals offense, and Jay Cutler is taking over a potential playoff team next weekend. Tye Hill has played a significant role in our nickel packages and is now starting for us.

    Heck, even if you narrow the window to only our own first round picks, there are plenty of them who made immediate contributions. Alex Barron won the starting RT job in Week 4 of his rookie season and has held it ever since. Steven Jackson had 134 carries for 673 yards with three starts as a rookie. Robert Thomas started 10 games for us as a rookie in 2002. Adam Archuleta started 12 games for us in 2001, coming into the season as the opening day starter.

    Therefore, I see no evidence to support the idea that rookies, specifically rookies selected at the top half of the first round where we'll likely be picking, almost never contribute in year one.


    Quote Originally Posted by rammiser View Post
    I'm not saying the draft doesnt help I'm just saying if you want immediate results you go strong in free agency and get good quality PROVEN players.
    I think this is a dangerous and misleading strategy. Yes, signing free agent players means you have a good idea about what you're getting and whether or not that player can perform in the NFL. But there are numerous examples of teams signing a guy in free agency and him not delivering like he was expected to.

    How'd Peerless Price work out for the Falcons? I bet the Raiders thought they were making huge strides by trading for Randy Moss. The Redskins thought Adam Archuleta was so proven that they gave him the biggest contract ever signed by a safety. Sometimes even when you acquire whom you think are talented veteran players, it doesn't work out.

    The bottom line is if you want to improve your team for the hear and now as well as the future, you have to look both in free agency and the draft. To completely write off rookie prospects as immediate contributors and potential solutions to problems is a position that I believe ignores a large amount of evidence to the contrary.

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  2. #17
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    Re: Am I the only torn person here?

    i would like to get a top rookie, someone who is a top ten pick

    it would just be nice to get a real beast on defense, a Julius Peppers style player, someone who is a top pick and goes on to be one of the best in the league.

  3. #18
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    Re: Am I the only torn person here?

    In no way would I ever root for losing to go up higher on the draft boards. WIth thte situation we arw in now we could make the playoffs. If the Colts can win with a crappy run defense, we too can find a way to win. We have just as much talent, if not more, on offense than the Colts, and if our O line can play well there is no reason we can't at least out score teams to win.

    Anything is possible in this league of parity. I have not yet given up hope and am cheering for the possibly playoff bound Rams. :l

  4. #19
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    Re: Am I the only torn person here?

    I could go through a whole analysis of how higher draft choices don't guarantee anything...

    I could talk about the importance of having a team that puts forth its best effort every week...

    But I won't.

    I'll just say this.

    I will never hope for a Rams loss.

  5. #20
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    Re: Am I the only torn person here?

    The Rams had major injuries and had the death (Georgia did it) of the owner in 1979 to win the division and go to the Super Bowl. Anything is possible, but losing games just to get a better draft position makes no sense. In 1962 the Rams drafted Roman Gabriel and Merlin Olson in the first round and finished the season 1-12-1; so a high draft pick will not make much of a difference.

    It's time to see what this team is made of; let's take care of the Turds this week and take it from there.
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  6. #21
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    Re: Am I the only torn person here?

    Although the draftboard looks pretty good right now, I will always root for the Rams in every game that they play. These are hard times for us Rams fans, our D is transparent and Seattle does not seem to have a SB hangover, but the Rams are dangerous as always and can beat a team on any given sunday...Rams are still in playoff race and can become a contender with some heart

  7. #22
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    Re: Am I the only torn person here?

    Mario Williams, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, AJ Hawk, Michael Huff, Ernie Sims, and Haloti Ngata have all started every game this season for their respective teams.
    Are any of these players,teams going to be in the playoff?

  8. #23
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    Re: Am I the only torn person here?

    Never do i want the Rams to lose. Let me repeat NEVER. I will let the chips fall where they may & if that gives us a higher draft pick so be it. A quality front office will find the talent needed to improve its team through free agency & the draft no matter where they land on the draft board. All we can hope for is to keep fighting for wins & then let the front office & the coaches do there job in the off season.

  9. #24
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    Re: Am I the only torn person here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    Are any of these players,teams going to be in the playoff?
    Of the rookies he mentioned three are on first or second place teams (Bush, Ferguson and Ngata) and most every one will be BETTER and further solidify each position next season as a result of having a year of NFL experience.
    "You people point your 'f'in' finger and say theres the bad guy....what that make you....good?" Tony Montana

  10. #25
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    Re: Am I the only torn person here?

    Quote Originally Posted by rammiser View Post
    The draft wont fix our problems anyway, we will have more success signing free agents in the offseason rather than drafting higher. So I always root for the Rams to win. The draft is a crap shoot, you can get proven veterans in the free agent market.
    great point,exactly how i feel about it.

  11. #26
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    Re: Am I the only torn person here?

    what CB would you have signed in FA instead of drafting Hill?

    Charles Woodson? no thanks

  12. #27
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    Re: Am I the only torn person here?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGameMN View Post
    This is a debate that has been around forever and will stay around. One thing that really fuels the argument is what happened with the San Antonio Spurs. David Robinson got hurt and missed the whole year, the Spurs were terrible and got the #1 pick, and they drafted Tim Duncan. They have won 3 championships since then. That makes for a pretty convincing argument.
    Basketball only has five players in action at any one time. Moreover, a great athlete is available on both offense and defense. Football is an entirely different sport and a team cannot be completely turned around by one great player. From 1998-99, the Rams made the move because of maturing young stars (Pace and Holt), the addition of Marshall Faulk and and Martz' offensive system that maximized Warner's skills.

  13. #28
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    Re: Am I the only torn person here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Really? Why do you say that? If you look at the top 15 picks from last season, only Vernon Davis and Brodrick Bunkley aren't making big contributions to their teams. Everyone else?

    Mario Williams, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, AJ Hawk, Michael Huff, Ernie Sims, and Haloti Ngata have all started every game this season for their respective teams.

    Reggie Bush has been a significant contributor on the Saints offense and special teams.

    Vince Young has started eight games for Tennessee and just led the Titans to a 24 point comeback against the Giants.

    Donte Whitner and Kamerion Wimbley have started for their respective teams since Week 2. Matt Leinart is the current leader of the Cardinals offense, and Jay Cutler is taking over a potential playoff team next weekend. Tye Hill has played a significant role in our nickel packages and is now starting for us.

    Heck, even if you narrow the window to only our own first round picks, there are plenty of them who made immediate contributions. Alex Barron won the starting RT job in Week 4 of his rookie season and has held it ever since. Steven Jackson had 134 carries for 673 yards with three starts as a rookie. Robert Thomas started 10 games for us as a rookie in 2002. Adam Archuleta started 12 games for us in 2001, coming into the season as the opening day starter.

    Therefore, I see no evidence to support the idea that rookies, specifically rookies selected at the top half of the first round where we'll likely be picking, almost never contribute in year one.
    Blair Thomas ring a Bell? How about Robert Gallery,Damione Lewis,Ryan Leaf, I could give you 3 guys for every 1 you give me that was a complete flop. The point is the draft is a crapshoot. We as an organization havnt been very lucky in the top 15 finding gems have we? Unless you think Lawrence Phillips and Damione Lewis were good picks. Now Orlando Pace that was a good pick but it was also the #1 pick in the draft. We are on the edge and only need a couple more players to become a good team again. I'm not ready to go 3-13 so we can pick top 5. I never said rookies dont contribute at all I'm just saying you can fill your needs through free agency and find someone that is having a better season that is a veteran.

    Mario Williams-4.5 sacks and 23 tackles. the better veteran comparison is- Aaron Kampmon of Green Bay he could have been had and had 10 sacks and 40 tackles.

    A.J. Hawk-62 takles 3.5 sacks
    The comparison is-Our own Will Witherspoon-74 tackles and 2 sacks

    Michael Huff-48 tackles 0 int's,0sacks and 0 passes defensed
    Corey Chavous-52 tackles 1 sack,1 Int and 5 passes defensed

    Haloti Ngata-9 tackles and 1 int
    Larry Triplett-13 tackles 2.5 sacks

    I know these are just stats but I cant watch every game but like I said there are good enough free agents out there to solidify this team. Losing to get the 7th draft pick might get us a solid player but then again we would be the 7th worst team in the league. I'd rather pick 24th and get some good free agents and do our studies like we did with Steven Jackson and build our team for next year not 3 years down the road.




    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I think this is a dangerous and misleading strategy. Yes, signing free agent players means you have a good idea about what you're getting and whether or not that player can perform in the NFL. But there are numerous examples of teams signing a guy in free agency and him not delivering like he was expected to.

    How'd Peerless Price work out for the Falcons? I bet the Raiders thought they were making huge strides by trading for Randy Moss. The Redskins thought Adam Archuleta was so proven that they gave him the biggest contract ever signed by a safety. Sometimes even when you acquire whom you think are talented veteran players, it doesn't work out.

    The bottom line is if you want to improve your team for the hear and now as well as the future, you have to look both in free agency and the draft. To completely write off rookie prospects as immediate contributors and potential solutions to problems is a position that I believe ignores a large amount of evidence to the contrary.

    As for naming bad free agent aquisitions, yeah if your just going to throw money at players you will get burned. We knew Archuletta couldnt cover thats why we let him go, and it wasnt a secret either. So for the Skins to throw that much money then that is their fault. The Bills knew Price was a #2 not a #1 wr. As long as there was a superstar next to him he's good. Alvin Harper of the Cowboys was the same way. You cant just name bad aquisitions though. For teams who do their homework i.e New England they are rewarded by choosing their FA's carefully. I mean wasnt Jerome Bettis a nice FA pick up for the Steelers. How about Henry Ellard for the Skins? Does Seattle wish they hadnt picked up Julian Peterson? Should we have left Witherspoon alone. How about Corey Ivy for the Ravens, he just caused a fumble that was returned for a td this weekend.

    Someone also asked who would have been better than Tye Hill that was a free agent. How about Nate Clements of the bills he was unrestricted and the Bills got him back. He returns kicks too and very well I might add. Now I'm not saying I wouldnt want Hill I just would rather have Clements as a starter right now.
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  14. #29
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    Re: Am I the only torn person here?

    Nate Clements was franchised
    so it would have cost us tons of money and two first rounders to get him from the bills

    you have also forgotton that FAs usually will be declining when they move teams, while pretty much every rookie will improve on their rookie year

  15. #30
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Am I the only torn person here?

    Quote Originally Posted by rammiser View Post
    I could give you 3 guys for every 1 you give me that was a complete flop.
    Okay, but what's your point? I didn't respond to your post to debate whether or not some draft picks flop out. We all know some do, that's the risk every team takes.

    I responded to your post to counter the claim that draft picks almost never contribute in year one, which is just incorrect based on the evidence, both for last seasons top 15 picks and our recent first round picks as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by rammiser View Post
    I never said rookies dont contribute at all I'm just saying you can fill your needs through free agency and find someone that is having a better season that is a veteran.
    Actually that's almost exactly what you said: "a draft pick almost never comes in and contributes in year 1."

    And yes, you can fill your needs through free agency. I never said you couldn't. But the point is you can also do it in the draft. I'm not suggesting we tank to get a better pick, nor do I think I ever supported that strategy in this thread. But it would be pretty unwise to write off the draft as a way to address current problems on your team as you basically did in the sentence I quoted.

    Do you think we drafted Tye Hill and Joe Klopfenstein because we felt we didn't have immediate needs at those positions? Did we have the right tackle spot locked down when we drafted Alex Barron in 2005? The bottom line is a good team uses both the draft and free agency to fill their needs and become better. Good teams don't completely write off one avenue of player acquisition when examining how to improve their personnel.


    Quote Originally Posted by rammiser View Post
    We knew Archuletta couldnt cover thats why we let him go, and it wasnt a secret either.
    I don't think that's correct at all. The coaching staff wanted him back, and made that pretty clear in this February article where Haslett says he wants to retain him.


    Quote Originally Posted by rammiser View Post
    You cant just name bad aquisitions though.
    Why not? You apparently have no problem naming bad draft picks to try and prove a point.


    Quote Originally Posted by rammiser View Post
    Someone also asked who would have been better than Tye Hill that was a free agent. How about Nate Clements of the bills he was unrestricted and the Bills got him back. He returns kicks too and very well I might add. Now I'm not saying I wouldnt want Hill I just would rather have Clements as a starter right now.
    Uh, Clements was franchise tagged in Buffalo. A team would have sacrificed two first round picks to sign him to a contract. That's vastly different from being a pure free agent.
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