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Thread: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
    What ridiculous sarcasm? I pointed out that the seaducks beat them in every aspect of the game. Including defense. You're saying the only way we can surpass them is by drafting Clowney which I find to be wrong. We have a better Dline than they do already without adding a backup like Clowney to the fold. We need to improve our safety play, our corner depth and continue to develop the young players we've added the last two years. Seattle's defense didn't become the beast that it is in one season and we won't match them in one more draft.
    First of all, you apparently have no idea what I am saying, so let me clarify for you.

    I have not once said anything remotely close to "the only way we can surpass Seattle is to draft Clowney," though I believe that would be a step in the right direction.

    What I said and am saying is, it takes a dominating defense to compete in this division, which was proven again tonight. 3 of the 4 teams in the NFC West are already there, with us being the only one on the outside looking in IMO.

    Not that we are that far off, because we're not, and that stands to reason why I wouldn't be opposed to making defensive selections with our first 3 picks in this up coming draft.

    So obviously, drafting an Olineman with the 2nd pick makes even less sense to me now than it did before the Superbowl.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Flippin' Ram View Post
    The Seahawks have a phenomenal GM with John Schneider and a coach who brings the best out of these so-called "nobodies".
    And don't forget the extensive use of PEDs

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    This may be a good time to point out that, according to the NFL.com gamebook of the Super Bowl, the Seattle team that won this evening started twice as many first round OL (Okung [a Top Six pick], Carpenter) as their entire defense fielded (Thomas). In fact, I think Thomas and Bruce Irvin might be the only actual first rounders on the Seattle defense.

    While Seattle's win may be a strong statement about the merits of a top defense, they also showcase that you certainly don't need to load your defense up with high draft picks - especially at positions of strength - to reach that caliber of play. Some of their best players (Sherman, Thurmond, Maxwell, Chancellor, Smith) were Day Three picks.
    So now you're taking my arguement to the other side of the ball? Good so now our points cancel out each other's.

    Great......... So what do we do now?

    I've got it, why don't we just take the best player available if we can't trade down.

    Oops....that would lead us right back where we started huh?

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    BTW, yes, Denver's offense is very strong, very good, perhaps in the Top 20 All-time neighborhood. BUT not a Top Five and IMO, certainly ... not "arguably the best"! Oh, no, no. Nowhere close to the GSOT!

    I agree with the "Defense Wins Championships" mantra but my twist to SB XLVIII is that regarding the Broncos defense it was one of those...

    Lack thereof!

    In other words, rather than recognizing the Squawks for their D, I'm pointing the finger at Denver's D.

    Of course, Manning didn't help his team that much either with those three turnovers!

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    "Defense wins championships" is so cliche. Our defense was decent in 2000, but our offense was lights out. The bottom line is you have to end the game with more points than the other team to win, and to win a championship you must keep winning till the very last game. Seattle's offense was almost as good as their defense, so did they not share a part in the win? I think so. It is a team sport with both sides of the ball required to contribute. Or if you really want to twist that cliche, you could say defense loses championships because Denver's certainly had a part in their loss.
    "The disappointment of losing is huge!"

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonJoe View Post
    "Defense wins championships" is so cliche. Our defense was decent in 2000, but our offense was lights out. The bottom line is you have to end the game with more points than the other team to win, and to win a championship you must keep winning till the very last game. Seattle's offense was almost as good as their defense, so did they not share a part in the win? I think so. It is a team sport with both sides of the ball required to contribute. Or if you really want to twist that cliche, you could say defense loses championships because Denver's certainly had a part in their loss.
    Good points, but I think the more popular opinion on this year's superbowl will be that the number one defense in the league dominated the number one offense, no matter how you slice it.

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Denver didn't win today but got to the Super Bowl on the play of its offense this season. And while I LOVE defense (played it in high school football), anyone with two eyes can see where we need the most help and that is on the offensive side of the ball. Offensive linemen open up running lanes and protect the passer. And playmakers allow you to win and win consistently. Faulk, Warner, Bruce, Holt- you get my drift.

    Does this mean we neglect the defense? Certainly not. We should be using a few of those draft picks to solidify what already has some excellent pieces in place. But our offense is what has primarily held us back the past several seasons- and that isn't even remotely debatable. To not draft heavily for that side of the football would be inexcusable.
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by RealRam View Post
    BTW, yes, Denver's offense is very strong, very good, perhaps in the Top 20 All-time neighborhood. BUT not a Top Five and IMO, certainly ... not "arguably the best"! Oh, no, no. Nowhere close to the GSOT!
    Perhaps I should say 'the most productive offense in history", when referring to the Broncos huh? Ok, good enough for me, because I like the GSOT better also.

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Knee jerk reaction to tonight's game is this makes want me want the Rams to draft Clowney even more because Seattle's pass rush absolutely derailed Denver's O and created multiple turnovers (one returned for a touchdown). On the flip side, you can look at it and say Denver was missing their starting LT (Clady has been on IR since July) all season and it clearly hurt them tonight, so there is an argument that can be made for both sides. However not having Clady didn't seem to stop Denver from setting so many offensive records before they faced Seattle...

    I'm torn. But I certainly don't think this hurts the cause for those of us who want to draft Clowney. IMO the only way to win the West or get a wildcard spot is go toe-to-toe on defense and match Seattle and San Fran. If we try and bolster our offense we'd still be hard pressed to match a Denver squad who clearly had fits trying to move the ball at all tonight. But without addressing the offensive line, Bradford will likely be swarmed by Seattle jerseys on a consistent basis. Right now I'm leaning Clowney, but I can definitely see why someone like Matthews or Robinson would be a great asset going forward.

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    If you guys want a dominant defense, why is it you want to draft a player at a position of strength, rather than shore up our Cornerback and Safety situation?
    NJ Ramsfan1 and bradwill like this.
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by NJ Ramsfan1 View Post
    Denver didn't win today but got to the Super Bowl on the play of its offense this season. And while I LOVE defense (played it in high school football), anyone with two eyes can see where we need the most help and that is on the offensive side of the ball. Offensive linemen open up running lanes and protect the passer. And playmakers allow you to win and win consistently. Faulk, Warner, Bruce, Holt- you get my drift.

    Does this mean we neglect the defense? Certainly not. We should be using a few of those draft picks to solidify what already has some excellent pieces in place. But our offense is what has primarily held us back the past several seasons- and that isn't even remotely debatable. To not draft heavily for that side of the football would be inexcusable.
    Didn't say, and am not saying the offense doesn't need upgrading.

    I am saying however, what Rambos said in my Clowney vs Mathews thread, and that is that I'd rather be dominant on one side of the ball, than mediocre on both. And since I believe the defense is closer to being a dominant unit than the offense, I say spend the resources to complete that unit first. Which means focus on the defense early in the draft.

    Besides, I get the feeling that Fisher's offensive philosophy will be a basic one. Not very complex at all. Run the ball, control the clock and don't turn the ball over. How much of a personnel upgrade do we need for that? I say not much. We ran well after Stacy took over, and Sam was showing promise prior to his injury.

    Sam Bradford's return, coupled with the further development of our young receivers and backs should significantly upgrade the functionality of that type of offense.

    Obviously we need to take care of our better UFAs along the Oline maybe draft for depth on the 2nd or third day and little else needs to be done to our offense personnel-wise IMO.

    I think we could use a number one receiver, but Snead says we don't need one, so I trust he knows better than any of us.

    He also recently said, we need to be able to play strong defense, which Seattle proved in the Superbowl and I wholeheartedly agree with.

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    Perhaps I should say 'the most productive offense in history", when referring to the Broncos huh? Ok, good enough for me, because I like the GSOT better also.
    My apologies 49hater.

    I was simply not aware Denver had been so successful in 2013! ...Sorry.

    I've now updated myself NFL news wise.

    ==========================================

    Where do 2013 Broncos rate among greatest all-time offenses?
    By Pat Kirwan, NFL Insider
    December 26, 2013
    9:49 am ET

    [ PManning photo ]
    Peyton Manning and the Broncos are making the case for best-ever status.


    This week on the CBS matchup show I was asked if the Denver Broncos' offense was the greatest of all time. It is a hard question to answer without doing some research and thinking about past teams and the era they performed in compared to today. My first reaction was that they could very well be the best offense of all time, but I thought I would open up the question to the radio listeners on my Sirius radio show "Moving the Chains." Many people weighed in on the subject via call in, emails and twitter. When it was all said and done, seven different offenses dating back to 1984 made it to final consideration.

    The finalists are the 2013 Denver Broncos, 2007 New England Patriots, 2005 Indianapolis Colts, 2001 Saint Louis Rams, 1998 Denver Broncos, the 1998 Minnesota Vikings and the 1984 Dolphins. To objectively look at these seven great offenses and rank them I used the following criteria:

    1. How many offensive points did these teams score using only passing touchdowns, rushing touchdowns and field goals?

    2. How many yards did they accumulate passing and rushing?

    3. How many first downs did the offenses produce?

    4. How many turnovers did they have for the season?

    5. The team record during the season.

    6.Where did the rushing game and passing game rank in the NFL for the year? Keep in mind the 2013 Denver Broncos have one game to go. The team offenses are listed in chronological order. Note the (*) designating the best of the group in that particular area.

    BEST OFFENSES OF ALL TIME

    Team ----- PTS Yds Scores (run/pass/FG) 1st Dns Trnovrs TM rcrd Rank (run / pass)

    '13 DEN -- 538* 6,859 16R/51P*/23FG --- 407 ----- 26 ---- 12-3 ----- 14R/1P
    '07 NE --- 532 6,580 17R/50P/21FG ------ 393 ----- 15*--- 16-0* ---- 13R/1P
    '01 STL -- 468 6,690 20R/37P/23FG ------ 340 ----- 44 ---- 14-2 ----- 5R/1P
    '05 IND -- 419 5,799 19R/31P/23FG ------ 363 ----- 19 ---- 14-2 ----- 16R/3P
    '98 MIN -- 511 6,264 17R/41P/35FG* ---- 335 ----- 20 ---- 15-1 ----- 11R/1P
    '98 DEN -- 475 6,092 26R*/32P/23FG ---- 347 ----- 20 ---- 14-2 ----- 2R*/7P
    '84 MIA -- 487 6,936* 18R/49P/9FG ------502* ----- 28 ---- 14-2 ----- 16R/1P

    If the 2013 Broncos just hit their average on Sunday they will land up with 573 points, which will be 41 more points than any of the other contenders. And as you can see they already have the most points. Denver could also hit 7,316 yards, which would be 380 more yards than the next closest team. The 26 turnovers by Denver is a negative, and if they win this week their 13 victories would still keep them in last place among these seven. The only team in this group to win the Super Bowl was the 1998 Denver Broncos.

    It's always going to be a debate and I could make a case for at least five of these teams for the greatest offense of all time, but for now here's how I ranked them.

    1. 2013 Broncos
    2. 2007 Patriots
    3. 1998 Broncos
    4. 1984 Miami Dolphins
    5. 2001 Rams
    6. 1998 Vikings
    7. 2005 Colts

    Feel free to make a case for a team to move up or down. Of course, if you believe another team belongs on this list let me know who it is and who should go.

    -- P. Kirwan



    Still, I'd like to insist that Denver's D was too porous, making the Squawks' winning efforts look too easy (you know, rather than praising their defense). ^_^

    Last edited by RealRam; -02-03-2014 at 08:42 PM. Reason: Tyop
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post

    First of all, you apparently have no idea what I am saying, so let me clarify for you.

    I have not once said anything remotely close to "the only way we can surpass Seattle is to draft Clowney," though I believe that would be a step in the right direction.

    What I said and am saying is, it takes a dominating defense to compete in this division, which was proven again tonight. 3 of the 4 teams in the NFC West are already there, with us being the only one on the outside looking in IMO.

    Not that we are that far off, because we're not, and that stands to reason why I wouldn't be opposed to making defensive selections with our first 3 picks in this up coming draft.

    So obviously, drafting an Olineman with the 2nd pick makes even less sense to me now than it did before the Superbowl.
    I'll take our D over Arizona's, which has four starters who are 32 years or older.
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    "Defenses win championships" is an adage, and so is "You build a team from the lines out". Having a strong defense is one way to win, but not the only way. For every Seattle or Baltimore that wins a Super Bowl with a strong defense, there is a Green Bay or a New Orleans that wins one with a strong offense. A teams philosophy for winning can be balanced in any number of ways.

    IMO, the Rams biggest need is to build a solid OL, a line that can protect Bradford, open holes for the running game, and help sustain drives. Not doing so has been an issue for years, so I see nothing foolish about drafting the best offensive lineman available at number 2.

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Looks then as though the Squawks were able to balance, balance some more, and balance in the end.

    Bah! Seattle Squawks!

    Seahawks beat Broncos 43-8 in Super Bowl
    By BARRY WILNER, AP
    SB day, postgame

    [Extracts]

    The Seahawks won their first Super Bowl crown in overpowering fashion, punishing Peyton Manning and the Denver Broncos 43-8. That masterful defense, the NFL's stingiest, never let the five-time MVP get going, disarming the highest-scoring offense in league history.

    Seattle (16-3) was too quick, too physical and just too good for Denver, and that was true in all areas. What was hyped as a classic matchup between an unstoppable offense and a miserly defense turned into a rout.

    The loss by the Broncos again raised questions about Manning's ability to win the biggest games. He is 11-12 in the postseason, 1-2 in Super Bowls. After the game, he brushed off questions about his legacy.

    ''Certainly to finish this way is very disappointing,'' he said.

    He never looked comfortable against a defense some will begin comparing to the 1985 Bears and 2000 Ravens - other NFL champions who had runaway Super Bowl victories.

    Seattle forced four turnovers; Denver had 26 all season.

    The Seahawks looked comfortable and at ease, and not just their defense, which lost All-Pro cornerback Richard Sherman to a high ankle sprain in the fourth quarter. He celebrated on crutches.

    Wilson also hit Doug Baldwin for a 10-yard score in the final period in what had become one of the most lopsided Super Bowls. For the fifth time in six meetings between the NFL's No. 1 offense and defense, the D dominated.


    Then the Seahawks began scoring touchdowns.

    Manning's third-down pass to Julius Thomas sailed way too high and directly to safety Kam Chancellor, giving the Seahawks the ball at Denver's 37.

    Marshawn Lynch scored to make it 15-0.

    Then Smith, with a play emblematic of the best defense the NFL has seen in years, made his second huge play in two weeks.

    Cliff Avril got to Manning's arm as he was throwing, the ball fluttered directly to Smith, who took off down the left sideline for a 69-yard interception TD.

    Manning trudged to the sideline, a look of disgust on his face.

    That look didn't improve when, after a drive to the Seattle 19, his fourth-down pass was tipped by Chris Clemons and fell harmlessly to the Meadowlands turf.

    So did Denver's reputation as an unstoppable force.
    Yes indeed, we, the Rams, must be ready!

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