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Thread: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

  1. #31
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    I will add and belive it was alluded to at least once in this thread I am very happy we have the new Defensive Coordinator we do! He loves to play mean nasty physical defense, and brothers in this league as shown by this last season and this championship game is totally in vogue. The barest minimum of penalties were called this year. So Greg W.'s style of give them the old one two even after two clicks on the whistle will work great in our division where that is how it is being played! The more dirt Greg can get our guys to deal the better chance we have against teams like the nasty teal birds and the dirty whiners! If you cannot beat that crap I guess we should just put on our razor back bibs and get down in the mudd and slop it up with them!

    Any one see how many sea chickens were giving the choke sign to the broncos in this game? Not one time was it called... what a sad joke! They were making a living of being inside of the Broncos Jersey's and a bare minimum of calls were made... imho

    I just really want to win the war that will be our division next season, whoever we draft they better be warriors and bring their steel helmets! It is going to get really ugly and rough in this division and league cause this is the blue print for suck Cess in this league now. Any Connie Doblers in this draft? We need guys who bring their own brass knuckles to the game if we expect to compete with these guys! Maybe some of them old raiders can come out of retirement, we just need the meanest nastiest guys we can get water down the field and turn them loose!

    I may be slightly over reacting but at this moment I don't think so... LOL


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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    So now you're taking my arguement to the other side of the ball? Good so now our points cancel out each other's.

    Great......... So what do we do now?

    I've got it, why don't we just take the best player available if we can't trade down.

    Oops....that would lead us right back where we started huh?
    I apologize, perhaps my point wasn't clear, so let me try again, even though I suspect your mind is made up and this isn't going to change that.

    You started this thread by saying Seattle's performance in the Super Bowl has convinced you that drafting an OT with the 2nd overall pick is foolish, and that a dominant defense is needed. What's ironic about that is that Seattle actually used a Top 6 pick on an OT in 2010 to shore up their offensive line, and did not establish their dominant defense with high first round picks. They essentially just won a Super Bowl by doing the opposite of what you're suggesting.

    When Pete Carroll took over as head coach as the Seahawks, the first thing he did in the draft in 2010 was spend a Top 6 pick on an OT, suggesting he would not agree that such a move was completely foolish. He then turned around and spent another first round pick on an OL the following year in James Carpenter.

    To get back to the point from my previous response, the Seahawks team that won the Super Bowl last night started more first round picks on their five-man offensive line than they did on their entire eleven-man defense.

    Even if you don't consider Walter Thurmond as a starter and instead plug in Bruce Irvin, the fact remains that the majority of Seattle defensive starters from last night were either Day 3 picks or undrafted. In fact, I don't believe the Seattle defensive line features any player that was selected higher than the third round. How on earth they prove we have to use our top pick this year on defense is beyond me.

    Despite your claim that it would be completely foolish to do so, the Seahawks did spend a top pick on an OT, and they are proof you can build a dominant defense without using top picks to do so, particularly at positions where you're already among the best in the league.
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    This is a great thread so lets not spoil it by taking pot shots (that's to everyone) (even in a clever way)

    I agree that a dominant D should always take out/cancel a dominant Offence (we have unfortunate experience of this) but it would be a shame to neglect a sound Offence so I guess a sound offence alongside a dominant Defence is the way we should be heading for, lets hope we get there


  4. #34
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    Didn't say, and am not saying the offense doesn't need upgrading.

    I am saying however, what Rambos said in my Clowney vs Mathews thread, and that is that I'd rather be dominant on one side of the ball, than mediocre on both. And since I believe the defense is closer to being a dominant unit than the offense, I say spend the resources to complete that unit first. Which means focus on the defense early in the draft.

    Besides, I get the feeling that Fisher's offensive philosophy will be a basic one. Not very complex at all. Run the ball, control the clock and don't turn the ball over. How much of a personnel upgrade do we need for that? I say not much. We ran well after Stacy took over, and Sam was showing promise prior to his injury.

    Sam Bradford's return, coupled with the further development of our young receivers and backs should significantly upgrade the functionality of that type of offense.

    Obviously we need to take care of our better UFAs along the Oline maybe draft for depth on the 2nd or third day and little else needs to be done to our offense personnel-wise IMO.

    I think we could use a number one receiver, but Snead says we don't need one, so I trust he knows better than any of us.

    He also recently said, we need to be able to play strong defense, which Seattle proved in the Superbowl and I wholeheartedly agree with.

    Your points are good ones, but I believe what it comes down to is a philosophy. For every situation you can point to where a dominant "D" won it all (Ravens in 2001), you can find one that didn't (Bucs vs. our Rams in '99-'00). I am a big believer in balance. And while it's OK to emphasize one unit a bit more than the other, I do not believe drafting a guy at a position of strength is the way to go when other needs exist.
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    What I saw last night was a defense(Seahawks) that rattled an offense (Broncos). Then on the flip side I saw a defense (Broncos) that couldn't stop the opposing offense(Seahawks). The turnovers created by Seattles defense were huge in this game. Seattles offense being able to stay on the field and score points whether it be a Fg or TD, added to the time they ate up on the clock was very crucial as well. I'm sure Peyton was getting very frustrated sitting on the sidelines watching the Seahawks march down the field on several occassions.

  6. #36
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    I think that one of the reasons why Seattle's defense was so effective yesterday was that they had absolutely no fear whatsoever of Denver's running game. This allowed their LBs and safeties to play in a short zone and force Denver to put drives together with short passes (Manning had less than 6 yards/attempt).

    By the same token, when we played Seattle in St. Louis this year, we ran the ball very effectively, and that is what kept the game close.

    So, again, to beat a defense like Seattle's, a strong OL is a must.

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    I think that one of the reasons why Seattle's defense was so effective yesterday was that they had absolutely no fear whatsoever of Denver's running game. This allowed their LBs and safeties to play in a short zone and force Denver to put drives together with short passes (Manning had less than 6 yards/attempt).

    By the same token, when we played Seattle in St. Louis this year, we ran the ball very effectively, and that is what kept the game close.

    So, again, to beat a defense like Seattle's, a strong OL is a must.
    Exactly. Seahawks came out and dared Denver to try and beat them on the ground while their D focused on clogging ever passing lane and underneath crossing routes that Denver loves. If the Broncos could have moved the chains some on the ground, Seattle would have had to adjust but they didn't need to, meaning a long slog for Denver's passing attack against an elite passing defense.

    After an off-season and SB hangover, it's hard to predict what the future holds for the Seahawks D and the Legion of Boom, but if you can't run effectively against them, I don't like your chances of winning at all. Their LB's and secondary are incredible right now. Big, very fast and very physical. They had Denver intimidated before the game started.

    Want Jake Matthews at #2 unless someone gives Snead an offer that is too good to refuse.

  8. #38
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    I think that one of the reasons why Seattle's defense was so effective yesterday was that they had absolutely no fear whatsoever of Denver's running game. This allowed their LBs and safeties to play in a short zone and force Denver to put drives together with short passes (Manning had less than 6 yards/attempt).

    By the same token, when we played Seattle in St. Louis this year, we ran the ball very effectively, and that is what kept the game close.

    So, again, to beat a defense like Seattle's, a strong OL is a must.
    Really? I disagree our defense kept the game close.

    The Rams stayed in the game largely thanks to their defense, which took advantage of the Seahawks missing starting offensive tackles Russell Okung and Breno Giacomini due to injuries. Robert Quinn had three sacks in the first half for St. Louis.

    Seattle had minus-1 yard of offense in the first quarter, and 38 yards at the half, its fewest since gaining 37 in the first half against Kansas City in 1998, according to STATS LLC.
    Wilson was sacked a career-high seven times by the Rams defense.

    "The defensive line, they were making plays," Wilson said. "We have to find a way to slow them down."
    It's not about keeping it close it's about winning the game and the number one defense stopped us and won the game.

    "It's not always going to be pretty," Sherman said. "You have to be able to win ugly."
    I think this was the best defensive game the Rams have played in a decade.

    I can agree with both side of this debate to me both have valid points. But to try and downplay the defense of the Hawks in the SB game is silly.

  9. #39
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    If it's a copycat league and it is... the Rams might want to copy the Hawks

    Seahawks' defensive line is deep, talented

    By John Boyle, Herald Columnist
    JERSEY CITY, N.J. — Tony McDaniel wasn't sure what to make of his new situation last summer.

    McDaniel had signed with the Seattle Seahawks as a free agent, potentially to take over a starting job at defensive tackle, but when he started taking place in preseason workouts, McDaniel wasn't sure if Pete Carroll and his defensive coaching staff had a plan in mind for him and the rest of the defensive line.

    "When I first got here in OTAs, they were kind of mixing and matching us, giving us different roles," McDaniel said, laughing at his early impression of Seattle's defense. "So I was kind of wondering how this was all going to work out. But it's worked out great."

    The truth is, Carroll wasn't sure how his defensive line was going to look as his team prepared for the 2013 season. It wasn't that the Seahawks feared their line was going to be problem — an already solid group added pass rushers Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett in free agency — it was just that nobody was quite sure how it would all fit together.

    Following a draft in which his team added two rookie linemen to an already crowded group, Carroll said: "We have a lot of versatility and we have to figure out how it fits together. But this is not something we worry about, this is something we can't wait to see how it unfolds. Hopefully we can keep a big rotation going, keep guys healthy and keep them fast and playing at a high level. If we're doing that then we're on the right track. There is a variety of guys, and we love that. So we'll fit them together as we move forward."

    Nine months later, things have played out pretty much exactly as Carroll laid out that day, minus injuries to those two rookies, Jesse Williams and Jordan Hill. The Seahawks have kept the rest of the group healthy, they have kept a big rotation and they have played at a very high level. And in a game where so much attention will be paid to the matchup of Peyton Manning vs. Seattle's "Legion of Boom" secondary, the group that could actually make the greatest impact on Super Bowl XLVIII is the defensive line that has been overshadowed all year by those star defensive backs.

    "They're incredibly underrated," cornerback Richard Sherman said of Seattle's defenisve linemen. "It's almost sad how much they're underrated. I don't know if it's because they don't all play starters snaps because there's so many of them. But the effect that Michael Bennett and Brandon Mebane and Big Red Bryant and Cliff Avril, Tony McDaniel, Clint McDonald — I could go on and on and on — have had on our team and our ability to win games is tremendous. They're making plays week in and week out that have helped us win games."

    "They definitely don't get the credit they deserve," safety Earl Thomas added. "They're a great front and they make our jobs a lot easier."

    As Sherman notes, the line probably doesn't get the credit it deserves because they rotate players so frequently. While some teams have linemen who might play 80 to 90-percent of the snaps, something Chris Clemons had done in the past, the Seahawks rarely have a lineman play more two thirds of a game.

    Bennett and Avril were considered the two top pass rushers on the free-agent market, and were starters on their former teams. In Seattle, neither is a starter, though both play frequently, and both have been among the most impactful players on Seattle's defense, combining for 16.5 sacks and six forced fumbles in the regular season, and three sacks and four forced fumbles in the playoffs.

    You want a good example of how deep and talented Seattle's defensive line has been this season? Avril and Bennett, those two non-starters, they ended up on the cover of Sports Illustrated two weeks ago combining to sack Drew Brees.

    Yet as deep as Seattle's defensive line is, and as much of a benefit that could be Sunday when those linemen will be playing with healthier bodies than is normal for the 19th game of the year, it was hardly a sure thing that this was going to work. Egos could have gotten in the way had Avril or Bennett felt slighted by their reduced roles, or had Clemons been put off by the drop in production that came this year thanks to an improved group around him.

    "Those guys sacrificed so much to come here," Clemons said of Avril and Bennett. "To be starters on their prior teams and come here and say, 'I'm going to be a role player' — that's the way we look at it, any of us can start. A lot of guys checked their egos to go out and be able to perform with guys they've never played with. I just think it's great."

    While Seattle's vaunted secondary will play a huge role in determining the Spuer Bowl's outcome, what makes the defensive line so important Sunday is one of the underrated elements of Denver's offense with Manning leading the show. Manning never has been known as a mobile quarterback, and now he's 37 and has had multiple neck surgeries, yet he was sacked just 18 times this season.

    "You just got to beat your man faster," Bennett said matter-of-factly.

    But it's not as easy as that. Manning has an incredible knack for getting the ball out in time, something that developed over a long career. So even if Seattle's pass rushers are doing a decent job, odds are Manning usually will throw it quick enough anyway. But with so many different pass-rush options, the Seahawks might be able to present challenges the Broncos haven't yet seen this year — when the Seahawks have Avril, Bennett, McDonald and Clemons on the field together in passing situations, that's 26.5 combined sacks lined up across from Manning and his line. And if Avril can get one of his signature strip sacks, if Bennett can recover, do a little dance, and help the offense set up a score, that could be just as impactful as anything the "Legion of Boom" or anyone on Seattle's offense could do Sunday.

    Whether it was Carroll on draft weekend or a McDaniel in OTAs, there was plenty of uncertainty about how his rotation would come together. Now, with the Seahawks playing in the Super Bowl, that uncertainty has turned into one of Seattle's biggest strengths.

    "We had to figure it out, and figure out how they could fit together and how we could mesh the different personalities and styles of play, and that's what we've done," Carroll said. "Early in the year, as we just rotated, we just were gathering information. I thought mid-year, it really took us before we really figured out what we thought was the best way to utilize our guys. They've all played, they've shared reps, nobody's overworked, nobody's overloaded at this time. We're very fresh and ready to go. We're very fortunate that we're this late in the season and feel like that. So, it's worked out quite well."

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Defense won this one but I think the Seahawks victory has more to do with having the right personnel to shut down the Denver passing game than it does with defense winning championships in general. John Fox made a pretty porous gameplan, had he put emphasis on the running game, we'd have watched a more competitive game.

    The key to beating the Seahawks defense is to utilize the running game to set up the passing game, and to do that, we have to dominate in the trenches to open holes for Zac Stacy. So I don't think drafting an OT at #2 overall is a bad idea, in fact it'll definitely help us in games if we gameplan correctly against opponents' weaknesses.

    Yesterday's game showed me that personnel matchups and proper game planning is the key to winning games.

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Let's face it: the Seattle Seahawks are a complete team. Their D happens to be the standout unit of the three. Obviously we need to be able to lessen the blows to our QB and open up lanes for Zac, and the only way to do that is by having a great offensive line. The only thing we learned about Seattle is that you DON'T need to have all first rounders on any given unit to have enormous success. A lot of it comes from chemistry and coaching. Those guys are not only super talented but they gel well together. To me, what this shows is that we need make EVERY draft pick count. Who cares when who/what position was taken? I want all my picks to have the mindset of playing like champions. Personally, I'd like to see us go offensive line early to really solidify the o-line. Having said that, I wouldn't necessarily be disappointed getting a stud safety either, if it makes sense. Like I said, as long as we address our team's issues with smart logical picks then I'll be happy. I think Snead has done a great job so far and at the very least we can assume that at least 3 or 4 picks will be difference makers.


    Always and Forever a fan of the St. Louis Rams

  12. #42
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    If it's a copycat league and it is... the Rams might want to copy the Hawks
    That was a good article, but in regards to defensive line depth I think the Rams are right up there with Seattle. We could probably use another DT, but our DE depth is excellent. Don't forget that Hayes is a kind of guy like Avril and Bennett who could probably start for a lot of teams. I think I'd take Quinn, Long, Hayes, and Sims over Seattle's group. Clemons is getting old and Bryant is a mean run stuffer but he doesn't add anything to the pass rush.

  13. #43
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    Really? I disagree our defense kept the game close.
    You disagree? Really?

    Okay, here are two stats from that game.

    The Rams ran the ball 37 times for 200 yards in that game.
    The Seahawks ran only 40 offensive plays in the whole game.

    Do you think those stats (and the success of the defense) might be related?

    It's not about keeping it close it's about winning the game and the number one defense stopped us and won the game.
    To be fair, they stopped Kellen Clemens in his first start.

    I think this was the best defensive game the Rams have played in a decade.
    It was a great defensive performance. Nobody contests that. But the fact that the Rams offense held the ball for 38 minutes helped out the defense immensely.

    I can agree with both side of this debate to me both have valid points. But to try and downplay the defense of the Hawks in the SB game is silly.
    Who was downplaying the Hawks' defense? They did a great job. Nobody is denying that.
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    If it's a copycat league and it is... the Rams might want to copy the Hawks
    Sounds great! I'd be happy to copy the 'Hawks by doing what they did - spending mid-round picks and signing veteran free agents to be role-players on a dominant defense.

    That would allow the Rams to do something else the Seahawks did when they had the chance in 2010 - spend a Top 10 pick to get an elite offensive tackle and improve their offensive line.

    Great plan, Rambos!
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    The Rams ran the ball 37 times for 200 yards in that game.
    The Seahawks ran only 40 offensive plays in the whole game.

    Do you think those stats (and the success of the defense) might be related?
    The inability to convert 3rd down was a greater factor than the ability of the Rams to run the ball.
    If the argument is that the Rams must draft an OT so they can run the ball, pointing out that they won with the current roster which included 4 of 5 starters as free agents isn't supporting the argument.

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