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Thread: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

  1. #61
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    I would add that our defense held the Seahawks to 14 points in that game, and Lynch was held to 23 yards rushing.

    Clowney was nowhere to be found during that game.



    Our offense was 21st in points per game, 30th in total yards, while the defense was 13th in points allowed, 15th in yards allowed. The way I see it, shoring up the OL does more to improve the team than shoring up the defense.
    Lest you forget that we played more than half the season with a 3rd string QB.

    What would you expect our offense to average?


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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by svh01 View Post
    This is why we should go offense first. We already have good pieces in place on D, and we only need to add depth and a maybe a few pieces in FA. On the O-Line we are probably losing 3 starts and we have a fourth coming off an injury that will probably not be 100% at the start of the season. We have no real depth on the O-Line, so why would we not start building that up now? Improve the talent on offense and add depth on defense. No team wins without at least a decent O-line. If our "dominate" D is always on the field they won't look so dominate.
    My arguement is contingent on us re-signing our top UFAs, of course.

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    Lest you forget that we played more than half the season with a 3rd string QB.

    What would you expect our offense to average?
    2nd string QB.

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    2nd string QB.
    Only in title.

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    The more I see the various comments and points validated here, the more this becomes a matter of...

    B A L A N C E




    I realize there's more than just saying "our OL / offense and DL / defense need to be better balanced in order to be competitive" in our division 'and abroad', but it seems that the Rams are not too far removed from such an ideal, i.e., achieving balanced productivity and strength on both sides of the world of scrimmage for 2014.

    Providing that what happens from now until the regular season begins will prepare us right!
    Last edited by RealRam; -02-04-2014 at 12:48 AM. Reason: MBlues

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    I disagree with the idea that this means we should take Clowney at #2, if that's the suggestion. The Rams already have a good starting DL, probably better than the Seahawks to be quite honest. What we don't have safeties anywhere near the level of Earl Thomas, who was often the only guy further than 10 yards off the LOS for much of the game. I've been advocating taking a safety at #13 for most of the offseason, but there isn't one that many would be happy taking at #2. I don't think that has ever happened, but disappointingly I'm not sure Clinton-Dix falls to #13 (i hope he does though). We could use better depth at DT too, but I don't think anyone would be surprised if we picked up a DT in the 3rd-5th rounds.

    Now, given that the Seahawks just killed the Broncos offensively with their pass rush, how can you NOT take a OL at #2? Manning was under pressure all day leading to his worst performance in a long time, and this was due to him having a weakened OL. The Rams play the Seahawks twice, and surely you want to give our offense a chance to put some points on the board? Our D has already shown they can hang with the Seahawks Offense (for the most part) but our offense got swarmed, especially in the last game against the Seahawks. Clemens had no time to throw at all, and they could concentrate on taking out the run game, leading to a terrible performance.
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    In this Super Bowl the #1 defense beat the #1 offense. However, last season that same #1 defense (they were also the #1 defense in 2012) fell in the divisional round. Last season's SB was the #10 offense over the #2 defense. And in 2011, the SB was a match up of top tier offenses (#3 and #9) against mediocre defenses (#15 and #25). The 2010 SB was between the top two defenses who both had top 10 offenses as well.

    "Defense wins championships" is a nice meme, but ultimately the SB is won by all sorts of teams against all sorts of opponents. Ultimately, the team has to decide how they are going to use their draft picks to best fill out the holes in their rosters; not to satisfy some meme.

    Offenses don't win championships. Defenses don't win championships.

    Teams win championships.
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    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by tomahawk247 View Post
    I disagree with the idea that this means we should take Clowney at #2, if that's the suggestion. The Rams already have a good starting DL, probably better than the Seahawks to be quite honest. What we don't have safeties anywhere near the level of Earl Thomas, who was often the only guy further than 10 yards off the LOS for much of the game. I've been advocating taking a safety at #13 for most of the offseason, but there isn't one that many would be happy taking at #2. I don't think that has ever happened, but disappointingly I'm not sure Clinton-Dix falls to #13 (i hope he does though). We could use better depth at DT too, but I don't think anyone would be surprised if we picked up a DT in the 3rd-5th rounds.

    Now, given that the Seahawks just killed the Broncos offensively with their pass rush, how can you NOT take a OL at #2? Manning was under pressure all day leading to his worst performance in a long time, and this was due to him having a weakened OL. The Rams play the Seahawks twice, and surely you want to give our offense a chance to put some points on the board? Our D has already shown they can hang with the Seahawks Offense (for the most part) but our offense got swarmed, especially in the last game against the Seahawks. Clemens had no time to throw at all, and they could concentrate on taking out the run game, leading to a terrible performance.

    well lets not lose sight of the fact that the Broncos played a very poor game from the very start of the game.

    Im not sure it was Seattle per se, but the individual Bronco players themselves who just plain werent prepared and mentally in that game.

    The Broncos played other really good defenses during the year and fared well. Looking back on this game you could feel the uneasiness that the Broncos had right from that 1st snap, and it was evident that uneasiness never dissapated.

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by punahou View Post
    well lets not lose sight of the fact that the Broncos played a very poor game from the very start of the game.

    Im not sure it was Seattle per se, but the individual Bronco players themselves who just plain werent prepared and mentally in that game.

    The Broncos played other really good defenses during the year and fared well. Looking back on this game you could feel the uneasiness that the Broncos had right from that 1st snap, and it was evident that uneasiness never dissapated.

    I understand that, but I never saw Manning as rushed and panicked as he looked in the SB while facing that Seattle rush

    Now that said, Manning never went up against the Rams front 4 and I would be interested to see how Robert Quinn would have done against their back up LT, given that he makes most starters look like turnstiles.

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    You make good points Nick and I totally understand what you're saying.

    I just think that we're closer to being dominant on defense, therefore I would complete that unit first.

    But to be clear, by no means am I saying neglect the offense.

    And if you're going to focus on the defense first, why not start with the concensus best defensive player in the draft?

    Some say he plays a position that is our strength, and while that may be true, I simply believe he is an upgrade over Chris Long for half the money. Which IMO, still upgrades our defense.

    Add to him a Safety that will allow our CBs to play more aggressively and an OLB that can cover as well as rush the passer if Dunbar doesn't return and I believe we are a Superbowl contender before we even touch the offense in the draft.

    That is, provided we've re-signed our best UFAs and have no setbacks with the guys rehabbing injuries.

    It's that simple for me.
    I appreciate and respect your opinion, and I know we're unlikely to change each other's mind. But I would like to respond to a few of the points you brought up.

    I think one thing that's being lost here in the focus on Seattle's elite defense is that Seattle has boasted a Top 10 offense for the last two years running. In 2012, the Seahawks ranked 9th in points scored with 25.8 per game. This year, they tied for 8th in the same category with 26.1 points per game. Yes, they have an elite defense, but they pair it with an offense that is among the ten best in the league at generating points on the board.

    Compare that to St. Louis, who ranked 21st in scoring offense this year with 21.8 points per game. Last year, they ranked 25th with 18.7 points per game. To me, this idea that the Rams will become championship contenders merely by improving their defense while returning the same players who could barely get this team into the top two-thirds of scoring in the league just doesn't add up. It certainly isn't supported by using Seattle as an example, because they paired their elite defense with a Top 10 offense. Unfortunately, I don't think the return of Sam Bradford and Rodger Saffold will be enough to vault this offense into the top third of the league.

    Look, "Defense wins championships" is a great broad sentiment, and as someone who has been mocking a first round defensive back to the Rams regularly over the last few months, I certainly agree that the Rams' work on defense isn't done. But if you're asking me to react to Seattle's Super Bowl win by reflecting on what it means for the Rams personnel-wise going forward, when I really examine what Seattle did to get where they are now, I see a few undeniable facts.

    One, they successfully built an elite defense primarily by finding veteran role-players (Bennett, McDaniel, Clemons, Avril) and valuable mid to late round draft picks (Smith, Sherman, Chancellor, Thurmond). Two, they drafted two first round offensive linemen, including a Top 6 franchise left tackle (Okung), to provide long-term stability on their offensive line. Three, they have twice as many former Top 50 picks playing for their offense as they do their defense. And four, they have ranked in the Top 10 in scoring offense for the last two years.

    Again, I don't think those above facts are disputable, and if they lead me towards any conclusion, it's that it's possible for the Rams to field an elite defense by finding role players in free agency and the draft while focusing their top resources on improving on the offensive side of the ball.
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    By Nick Wagoner | ESPN.com

    Seattle made a habit of creating turnovers this season, ranking first in the league in turnover differential at plus-20. The Broncos were 14th in the league in that category with 26 takeaways to match their 26 giveaways. Denver was minus-four in its three losses during the season.

    Taking it a step further, Seattle was third in the league in points off turnovers with 119.

    Andrew Kulp

    “The stat that really matters”
    ESPN reporter and former Philadelphia Inquirer scribe Ashley Fox published a telling piece on Friday about the only statistic that ultimately matters on the gridiorn: turnover margin. “Since 2000, teams that have been plus-1 [or better] in turnover margin have won 92 of 128 postseason games (a winning percentage of .719). Teams that have lost the turnover battle have won just 14.8 percent of the time.”

    Fox specifically details turnover margin during the playoffs, but the same holds true during the regular season as well. In 2011, teams that were plus-1 or better won 157 of 200 such games — a winning percentage of .785.

    No surprise
    What we know about the Rams with Bradford is he is efficient and does not turn the ball over. To the point where some say he is boring and a check down machine.

    Gregg Williams
    He will be aggressive, the Saints recorded 35 takeaways and played a huge role in their Super Bowl run and victory.

    Something tells me no matter who we draft turnovers and ball control will be a big part of what we do going forward. The spread offense and the promises of hurry up offense never where.

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Look, "Defense wins championships" is a great broad sentiment, and as someone who has been mocking a first round defensive back to the Rams regularly over the last few months, I certainly agree that the Rams' work on defense isn't done. But if you're asking me to react to Seattle's Super Bowl win by reflecting on what it means for the Rams personnel-wise going forward, when I really examine what Seattle did to get where they are now, I see a few undeniable facts.
    Not necessarily asking you to react to Seattle's superbowl win by reflecting on how they got to where they are, but rather reflect on how they primarily won the game.

    Not proposing we copy the way they built their team, as there are many ways to build one.

    But more than the way they built, is the actual end result.

    For Seattle this year, they are Superbowl Champions primarily because of their number one ranked defense, though they had contributions from all facets.

    Stands to reason why a defensive player was named MVP.

    But let's not stop there, though SF has a good Oline and a pretty good offense, it has primarily been their defense that has had them contending for the past 3 years.

    Even the Arizona Cardinals had the 6th ranked defense this past season.

    Just seems to be a common thread in the NFC West. So the way I see it is, we might as well join the party.

    Complete the defense, then worry about the offense, particularly since Fisher's offensive philosophy doesn't lend itself to anything extravagant anyway.
    Last edited by Fortuninerhater; -02-04-2014 at 11:10 PM.

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    One thing that for sure we need to realize here. And honestly it's not just here its Rams sites all over, as well as fans for every team. And I'm not calling anybody out regarding this I'm as guilty as anybody else. But this whole notion that a player was successful when he was drafted in the 5th round so we should be able to wait till the 5th round or later to draft a player at that position. We use it when we look at every position. Hey those guys don't draft WR's before the 3rd round why should we waste a 2nd or a 1st on a WR!

    We could literally go through every position and find 10 guys that were 1st that were great and 10 guys that were great that were 5th-7th's. We could also find 10 guys at every position that was a 1st round bust and guys at the same position that never even made it out of training camp because they were busts. Look at the player, his skill set, the teams needs and how they all work in together. There are too many times when a guy is a bust gets cut moves to another team and explodes. It could be coaching, it could be mental it could be many things.

    Anyways I'm just saying we've all done it but it just is lazy logic and can easily be countered. Lets look at players and how they fit instead of what round we might have to draft them to put them in the Horns.
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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    Not necessarily asking you to react to Seattle's superbowl win by reflecting on how they got to where they are, but rather reflect on how they primarily won the game.

    Not proposing we copy the way they built their team, as there are many ways to build one.
    How they won the game and how they got to it can't be separated, IMO. It's as if you're saying, "Look at this great defense... except don't look too closely at it."

    And you're right, there are many ways to build a team. Since Seattle just won a championship by finding veteran role players and talented mid round picks to round out the best defense in the league, that seems like as good a way as any to me.

    Especially since it allows the Rams to take a much needed OL with their first pick. But hey, once that's out of the way, I don't mind if the Rams help improve that defense with their second first-rounder.

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    Re: Anybody doubting that DEFENSE wins Championships?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    After watching Seattle's defense totally dominate arguably the best offense in NFL history, I am more convinced than ever that an OT with our 2nd pick is completely foolish, particularly if the best player in the draft is still on the board.

    We need a dominant defense PERIOD.

    Thoughts are not only welcomed but encouraged.
    DEFENSE OR OFFENSE ??

    Defense wins championships .. But, but, but?

    Aren't games are won by the team that scores the most points?

    Offenses generally score more points than defenses. (Even the Rams O.)

    A good defense can be worn down. How? By having to stay on the field defending long drives over and over.

    A great offensive line gradually imposes its will on a defense - particularly during the second half of a game.

    A dominant O-line must be balanced: Protect the quarterback, and smash open holes for the ground game.

    A worn out defense is no longer a dominant defense.

    Being dominant on one side of the ball (on O or D) might get you to a championship, but winning it requires that both sides hold up their end. I do not believe that one side is more important than the other. They are both equally important.

    Draft an O-lineman at #2? At #13? I don’t pretend to know how high we should select our first OT, because I am a fan, not a professional evaluator of talent. However I do know we have clear needs on our O-line. If we cannot find a trading partner for our #2 pick, and Clowney is (in Les/Fisher’s opinion) a once in a decade talent, then ok, take him, and make Fortununinerhater happy.

    Need vs value is always part of the equation - I'm confident the Rams’ braintrust will get it right.

    Football is a team sport period. No one will ever convince me that one side of the ball is more important than the other. Regardless of how great our D is, if they can’t stay off the field long enough to catch their breath and rest up a bit, by the end of the game they’ll be porous - period!

    My foremost wish for this offseason is that whatever it takes, we somehow acquire a few athletic monsters to strengthen our O-line. We need our offense to line up on obvious running downs, and generate enough push, explosion (pick a word that suits you), and get 2 yards on 3rd and 2. We need to do it consistently enough that it engenders respect, and ultimately fear. After all, if you really want a dominant defense Fortuninerhater, you’ll have to admit that dominant D will need to stay off the field long enough to recoup now and then.

    Instead of this rant, I could have just said: Football really is a “team” sport. But this was more fun ..
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