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  1. #16
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    Re: Anyone here really think J. Collins...

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable
    By the same logic we had just spent a 2nd round pick on Klop so why draft Byrd in the third?
    It's not the same logic at all because we had bigger holes at TE than we did at DT, thus drafting Wroten was enough whereas we needed to bring two TEs out of this draft specifically with the Manumaleuna trade on the table.

    We lost Pickett and Lewis, but the staff is/was obviously counting on Kennedy and Glover to fill those starting roles. They had bodies there that they were planning on going with, so drafting multiple DTs didn't make sense.

    At tight end, the staff wasn't counting on anyone; Manu hadn't shown up and wasn't making any kind of impression. And even if he were, many people still viewed TE as a significant need, especially in Linehan's offense where two tight ends are used frequently. That's why you can take two tight ends but not defensive tackles.

    As for Watson, there's a reason he fell to day two. Do you seriously want Kennedy working at nose tackle with a guy who has a history of taking plays off? Think that's going to get our big guy motivated? No one signed Fisk thinking he was going to be the future of this team, but he provides veteran leadership, a solid situational player, and will push Kennedy if he slacks off. Does Watson do anything like that? He can't even push himself.

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  2. #17
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    Re: Anyone here really think J. Collins...

    BTW I can't help but believe that if we had taken Watson in the 3rd, Byrd would have in all likelihood have been there in the 4th round where he belonged.
    I doubt it. Houston and New England both drafted tight ends in the 4th round before our pick came around. Had Byrd been there, one of them probably would have taken him, and the other would have most likely taken Owen Daniels. Supposing we did the same trades and took Watson in the 3rd, our choice in the 4th would probably have been Adeyanju or Garrett Mills. If we kept Manu and took Adeyanju, we'd have a veteran tight end but one the coaches obviously didn't have faith in. If we went with Watson/Mills or kept Manu and took Watson, we'd be lacking depth at defensive end. If we went Watson/Adeyanju, we'd have created a hole at TE to fill the hole at NT. Obviously, the coaches haven't seen any free agent tight ends they wanted to bring in otherwise they probably would have during the summer, but Jason Fisk, Grady Jackson, and Dan Wilkinson were all available at NT. What we did was trade a tight end that didn't have a future with the team for one that did. So, (not to say there are no other possibilities but) it seems to me the choices broke down like this:

    DT/DE/TE
    Watson/Adeyanju/???
    Watson/???/Mills
    Watson/???/Manumaleuna
    Fisk/Adeyanju/Byrd
    Fisk/Adeyanju/Manumaleuna


    Anyway, since it's unlikely that we will cut a first day draft pick, Collins' best shot at making the roster will be to demonstrate better blocking skills than Walker.

  3. #18
    coy bacon Guest

    Re: Anyone here really think J. Collins...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    So my question then becomes, would you have not traded Manu? Because after trading Brandon, we needed someone to fill that second tight end spot besides practice squad free agents of whom the staff couldn't have counted on filling the void at that point in the year. So it's either not trade Manu, draft Byrd in the third, or draft a tight end on day two. Which would you have preferred?


    One, you can't seriously be suggesting that the front office should have known in April that Byrd would be outplayed by guys like Aaron Walker. Maybe it's not surprising to you, but it certainly couldn't have been predicted back when the Byrd decision was made.

    Two, what experienced veteran tight end available in late April would you have wanted the Rams to sign? The list isn't exactly overflowing with reassuring names of quality veteran talent. The Rams have been saying for a while that even with Klopfenstein and Byrd they'd like to bring in an experienced vet blocking tight end. The best we got was Aaron Walker.
    Answer to question #1, I would have kept Manu after drafting Klop.
    Question #2: Well given the fact that Byrd's knees weren't so good, its reasonable to think that someone could perform equally to him. Especially an experienced hungry guy.
    Question #3: I don't know. But I do know that there were TEs available, either from the NFL, CFL, guys who played in Europe, guys from Arena, etc. Like I said, I would have kept Manu. And shopped around for a FA or some other guy who would come cheap, and not cost a 3rd.

    Question for you Nick: You're not surprized that Byrd hasn't done so well are you? If his knees are shot, or hampered, its going to be hard for him. That being said, it is way to early to make final judgments. My main point is that we shouldn't have wasted a pic on the home boy. Especially on one who has questionable wheels. That was just plain stupid.

  4. #19
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    Re: Anyone here really think J. Collins...

    Quote Originally Posted by coy bacon
    Question #2: Well given the fact that Byrd's knees weren't so good, its reasonable to think that someone could perform equally to him.
    I disagree. I dont' think you can assume that someone would perform equally to Byrd simply because of his knees. Byrd's knees are concerning, but ask me in late April if I think he'll struggle to beat out Aaron Walker and Jerome Collins for #2 or #3 job and you'd have a hard time convincing me. Maybe you knew more than me, though I don't recall hearing it when we drafted him.


    Quote Originally Posted by coy bacon
    Question #3: I don't know. But I do know that there were TEs available, either from the NFL, CFL, guys who played in Europe, guys from Arena, etc.
    Again, who? Let's hear some names if you know that there were were tight ends available.

    As I said before, the Rams have been saying for a while that even with Klopfenstein and Byrd they'd like to bring in an experienced vet blocking tight end. The best we got was Aaron Walker. You'd think if there were better tight ends available, the Rams would have went after them.


    Quote Originally Posted by coy bacon
    Question for you Nick: You're not surprized that Byrd hasn't done so well are you?
    Depends. I'm not surprised he's been having trouble catching the ball and blocking, but I am surprised that it's been on such a level that it's caused him to find himself in a fight for the #3 job. I knew he wouldn't challenge Klopfenstein as the starter, but I wasn't expecting him to field much competition for the #2 job unless we brought in a decent veteran player.
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  5. #20
    coy bacon Guest

    Re: Anyone here really think J. Collins...

    [QUOTE=Nick]I disagree. I dont' think you can assume that someone would perform equally to Byrd simply because of his knees. Byrd's knees are concerning, but ask me in late April if I think he'll struggle to beat out Aaron Walker and Jerome Collins for #2 or #3 job and you'd have a hard time convincing me. Maybe you knew more than me, though I don't recall hearing it when we drafted him.


    Of course I didn't know more than you. But, I figure if a rookie has bad knees, it ain't going to be hard for another TE to match his performance. It's hard enough being a rookie, its harder still to perfom as desired, with bad knees. Surely our FO knew about his knee operations prior to drafting him.


    "Again, who? Let's hear some names if you know that there were were tight ends available."

    Again, I don't have a name. I don't put my free time into tracking FAs or stats. But, I have no doubt that there will always be some capable TEs available. Given the size and variations of the leagues, it is not a stretch or guessing game to find capable back ups.



    <<<As I said before, the Rams have been saying for a while that even with Klopfenstein and Byrd they'd like to bring in an experienced vet blocking tight end. The best we got was Aaron Walker. You'd think if there were better tight ends available, the Rams would have went after them. >>>

    Why not trade the 3rd for a capable back up? I agree with you, I'd thought the Rams would have done something more substantial to address the TE position than what they did. But I get the feeling that once they drafted Klop and Bryd they focused on other needs. Maybe there are better TEs available but the FO didn't have the time or energy or money to pursue them.

    At best we can only second guess the FO.

  6. #21
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    Re: Anyone here really think J. Collins...

    I've got a site bookmarked that lists free agents available. Here are the tight ends listed:

    Chad Lewis, Cam Cleeland, Roland Williams, Zeron Flemister, Lamont Hall, Brian Kozlowski, and Lorenzo Diamond

    I would point out that if we really thought Byrd's knees were shot we wouldn't have drafted him, and at the time, we picked him up not just as a backup but as a possible starter. Going into the draft, a lot of experts had Klopfenstein and Byrd both graded third round options. So instead of banking on Klopf as the only viable option at starter, they took another guy who was seen to be a comparable talent. Maybe we should have kept Manu--or Cleeland or Williams--but apparently the coaching staff didn't believe any of them fit the bill for what we needed.

  7. #22
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone here really think J. Collins...

    Quote Originally Posted by coy bacon
    Surely our FO knew about his knee operations prior to drafting him.
    And surely they didn't feel it was much of an issue, since they traded up to get him. Keep in mind Byrd isn't losing ground in the TE battles because he's struggling with knee injuries. He's losing the battle because of his less-than-average ability as a blocker and a recent case of the dropsies.


    Quote Originally Posted by coy bacon
    But, I have no doubt that there will always be some capable TEs available.
    It would seem to me that if you're going to criticize the front office for not better addressing the position by suggesting solid veteran options were available, then you've got to come up with some kind of name to prove that point that they actually could have done it. Saying you don't have any names but just assume there was talent out there doesn't do much to support the argument at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece
    Going into the draft, a lot of experts had Klopfenstein and Byrd both graded third round options.
    Erm, not from what I saw. As the draft neared, Klopfenstein was widely viewed with a mid-second round grade with some rumors even suggesting he could sneak into the late first. Byrd was dropping pretty quickly as the draft approached. His late first-early second hype from earlier in the spring sunk into a third round grade.
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  8. #23
    RAMarkable is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    It's not the same logic at all because we had bigger holes at TE than we did at DT
    Not sure I agree. One TE or none can be on the field whereas the Rams always have two DTs playing; therefore we need more quantity as well as quality at this position. Also as I mentioned in the earlier post, there are 2 very different types of DTs (up-field, #3 technic & run-stopping nose tackle) and our type of defense must have both playing well for our D. to succeed.
    With the loss of Pickett and the under-achieving Kennedy we actually may have a major hole which will allow other teams to drive a truck (named Alexander) thru the middle of our line. Question: which position is more crucial to the Rams success, a run-stopping DT or TE? Or more succinctly, which player has more upside and could conceivably compete for a atarting spot, Byrd or Watson? IMHO Mr. Watson is the correct choice for both of these questions.

    WHAT SAY YE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    As for Watson, there's a reason he fell to day two. Do you seriously want Kennedy working at nose tackle with a guy who has a history of taking plays off?
    First of all, I believe Watson was taken at the end of the third round and therefore would be a Day One pick.

    You asked if I want somebody with a history of taking plays off....umm, this sounds familiar...hmmm..why YES!! It's exactly the same thing that was said about Jimmy Kennedy when he was still in college! Actually this is a common complaint leveled against many college linemen and has been said about many current NFL-quality DTs like Marcus Stoud, Ty Warren to name a few. The problem is that if Kennedy never develops and busts out (a strong possibility at this point) we have no prospects at NT except a washed up Fisk who has already publicly stated that this is his last year. As mentioned earlier, Watson could have competed for a starting spot and, by your own admission, Byrd will always be behind Klop as a back-up. I think it is obvious which pick has more value given the current state of the Rams.

    WHAT SAY YE?

    P.S. I would have combined both of these posts into one but was unsure as to how to accomplish that and use the two sets of quotes.
    Last edited by Nick; -08-17-2006 at 02:49 PM. Reason: Merging back to back posts

  9. #24
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    Re: Anyone here really think J. Collins...

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable
    Not sure I agree. One TE or none can be on the field whereas the Rams always have two DTs playing
    But they don't always have a nose tackle playing, do they?

    We've already watched Wroten replace Kennedy on the line in defensive packages that are more suited to defend the pass. So not only do we already have a starter at NT, but he's not always going to be on the field.

    Meanwhile we didn't even have one solid starter at tight end, and Linehan's offense is known for making good use of two tight end sets. IMO, it's pretty easy to see why tight end was a much bigger draft priority than another NT when our starting NT wasn't even going to be on the field all the time whereas the second tight end would be used regularly in the offensive scheme.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable
    Question: which position is more crucial to the Rams success, a run-stopping DT or TE?
    They're both important to their respective sides, but given the more regular playing time of a second tight end versus the playing time of the nose tackle who is taken out in passing downs, I personally think depth at tight end is more important to what our offense wants to do than depth at nose tackle for our defense.

    If anything, depth at under tackle is more important to our D than nose tackle, and that's what we got by drafting Wroten. We then went on to address depth at nose by signing a solid veteran who has been playing as a starter and who will push Kennedy to be better. That's a lot more immediate impact than any draft pick would bring to the table, and if it works, we won't need a future starter at NT because we'll have found one in Jimmy.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable
    Or more succinctly, which player has more upside and could conceivably compete for a atarting spot, Byrd or Watson? IMHO Mr. Watson is the correct choice for both of these questions.
    It's hard to say. Both of them fell from early high grades in this draft, so both of these guys have concerns. That being said, since there was no clear starter at tight end while we had a first round pick occupying the NT position, I think it's fairly clear that Byrd would have a better chance to win the starting job than Watson would. Watson physically has the better skills for his position, but his lack of determination and drive really works against him.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable
    First of all, I believe Watson was taken at the end of the third round and therefore would be a Day One pick.
    Watson was taken in the fourth round, tenth overall in that round. Hence, Day Two pick, since it happened on the second day.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable
    Actually this is a common complaint leveled against many college linemen and has been said about many current NFL-quality DTs like Marcus Stoud, Ty Warren to name a few.
    You can't ignore weaknesses because others have succeeded and overcome them. Yes there are success stories, but there are also failures.

    This would be like saying a lack of speed at WR isn't concerning at all since guys like Keyshawn Johnson is a current NFL-quality receiver. That doesn't mean you don't look for a faster WR! All that means is there's a chance he could suceed, which I don't recall anyone ever saying he couldn't.

    But it is concerning, and is one of the primary reasons he dropped. You can't just ignore that, nor can you just ignore the effects such an attitude would have when exposed to the rest of the line, including Kennedy who also has yet to live up to expectations.

    I would much rather have a 12-year veteran with plenty of starting experience helping Kennedy along than a rookie who can't even get himself to play at a consistent level.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable
    The problem is that if Kennedy never develops and busts out (a strong possibility at this point) we have no prospects at NT
    Which is why, if that happens, we can address it this coming spring. IMO, we had a more immediate need at tight end, making it the bigger priority over a selection at back-up NT to fill your "what if?" scenario.
    Last edited by Nick; -08-17-2006 at 02:49 PM.
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  10. #25
    coy bacon Guest

    Re: Anyone here really think J. Collins...

    [QUOTE=Nick]And surely they didn't feel it was much of an issue, since they traded up to get him. Keep in mind Byrd isn't losing ground in the TE battles because he's struggling with knee injuries. He's losing the battle because of his less-than-average ability as a blocker and a recent case of the dropsies.

    I think that knees are quite important to a football player and affect about every aspect of his game.


    It would seem to me that if you're going to criticize the front office for not better addressing the position by suggesting solid veteran options were available, then you've got to come up with some kind of name to prove that point that they actually could have done it. Saying you don't have any names but just assume there was talent out there doesn't do much to support the argument at all.

    Nonsense. I didn't have to come up with anything in this case- it was a safe assumption. I did a 3 min. surf of available TEs and came up with several names (list at work). Going from memory, there was a guy from NE, Fauria (sp), some guy from Philly, and several others. Cost may have been an issue for some, but there were plenty of guys available with a lot of experience.

    If we were talking about 1st string running backs, QBs, etc., I'd see the need to play the name game. But not for a 2nd string TE. Actually, I would have rather the FO trade the 3rd for a great back up TE, instead of using it on another rookie TE with questionable knees.

    And, I'm not willing to give the FO a free pass on their judgments. It is their call but it was a questionable one to this novice.

  11. #26
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone here really think J. Collins...

    Quote Originally Posted by coy bacon
    I think that knees are quite important to a football player and affect about every aspect of his game.
    I never said they didn't; what I said was that Byrd isn't losing ground in the TE battles because of specific knee injuries or relapses from those past problems. If his knees were still bothering him to the point of it affecting his ability to play, he would have dropped a lot further than the third round.


    Quote Originally Posted by coy bacon
    Nonsense. I didn't have to come up with anything in this case- it was a safe assumption. I did a 3 min. surf of available TEs and came up with several names (list at work). Going from memory, there was a guy from NE, Fauria (sp), some guy from Philly, and several others. Cost may have been an issue for some, but there were plenty of guys available with a lot of experience.
    How is it nonsense? You can't just say something's out there. You have to show that it is. I could say there are dozens of fine #2 RBs available right now, but if I don't provide a single name, then my claim is left with nothing to back it up.

    As for your list, I'd double check the last date it was revised. Fauria signed with the Redskins in mid-March. If the Eagles tight end you're referring to is Chad Lewis, he wasn't even sure if he was going to return to football last season, and wasn't picked up until late in the year by the Eagles, at which point he still struggled with the foot injury that was causing him to think about calling it quits. He's a much bigger injury concern than Byrd, IMO, and may even be done with football. He hasn't gotten a sniff from anyone that I know of.


    Quote Originally Posted by coy bacon
    But not for a 2nd string TE.
    I disagree considering what's out there, though I'm interested to see who else is on your list. Also something to keep in mind is that Linehan specifically said that he'd still like to sign a veteran blocking tight end, which only narrows the field even more because we're not in need of another receiving option.
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  12. #27
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    Re: Anyone here really think J. Collins...

    Someone needs to throw a towel into the ring, because Nick keeps landing uppercuts. It ain't pretty.

  13. #28
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    Re: Anyone here really think J. Collins...

    I cant see how people can doubt drafting Byrd. Instead of moaning about the FO having done a poor job because Byrd is left fighting for the 3rd TE spot, i would spend my time praising the FO for finding Aaron Walker and Jerome Collins, guys who have gone under the radar and yet are beating out Byrd. Byrd isnt necessarily bad, he is just getting beaten fairly by better guys.

    And i was all for taking Gabe Watson, as i thought he would be huge in the middle should the Rams switch to a 3-4. However i was just basing that off size and hoping that he could get over his problems. Since Haslett seems to be sticking mainly to the 4-3 i think taking Wroten and Adeyanju is much better. Wroten had first round talent and only really dropped because of the drugs thing, while Watson didnt have any clear reason to drop that far. So you have to think that something was wrong with the guy.

  14. #29
    RAMarkable is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    But they don't always have a nose tackle playing, do they?

    We've already watched Wroten replace Kennedy on the line in defensive packages that are more suited to defend the pass. So not only do we already have a starter at NT, but he's not always going to be on the field. .
    Well only if they want to stop the run. You can't get to Wroten on 3rd down unless your core defense can stop the run on 1st and 2nd down as we all witnessed in the Marmster's reign of horror. BTW yes we have certainly watched Wroten, the rookie, replace Kennedy in pass situations; but this could be more an indictment of Kennedy's failings rather than a strategic move. It may now be apparent that not only can Kennedy not stop the run, he can't rush the passer either. To be honest, I truly hope that I am wrong about Kennedy and that he becomes the player we all want; however, I am not optimistic at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    ... much bigger draft priority than another NT when our starting NT wasn't even going to be on the field all the time whereas the second tight end would be used regularly in the offensive scheme.
    Huh? A second TE by definition is a back-up who may occasionally get in on some special packages. This is hardly comparable to a starting DT who plays an essential role in the middle of the defense. This is an apples and oranges argument. BTW Last year our "starting NT" was Ryan Pickett and I seem to recall him being on the field for virtually the entire game. If Kennedy doesn't pan out we have no other prospects or options at this vital position. And don't talk to me about Fisk who, at this point, is merely pulling a paycheck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    You can't ignore weaknesses because others have succeeded and overcome them. Yes there are success stories, but there are also failures.
    True, which is why players like Watson (and Incognito for that matter) went much lower in the draft than their respective talent levels would ordinarily have placed them. Nobody is arguing that Watson should have been taken higher, the point is that Watson-again, much like Incognito- was a value pick at that point in the draft. And much more value than Byrd IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    I would much rather have a 12-year veteran with plenty of starting experience helping Kennedy along than a rookie who can't even get himself to play at a consistent level.

    Umm...who is the inconsistent one? Why I do believe it's Mr. Kennedy who plays more like he's the drummer for the rock group "Dead Kennedy's" than a Professional football player. So, we have to bring in a veteran to "help" Jimmy and a rookie like Watson would corrupt him? Again, this speaks volumes to the flaws with Mr. Kennedy more than some of the problems with Watson (or anyone else for the matter.)



    Which is why, if that happens, we can address it this coming spring. IMO, we had a more immediate need at tight end, making it the bigger priority over a selection at back-up NT to fill your "what if?" scenario.
    Er... like quality NFL defensive tackles grow on trees? Actually it appears that the DT position is one of the more difficult-besides quarterback- to fill in the NFL. All I'm saying is that the Rams should have taken a chance on a guy like Watson, who has the potential to push for a starting role in a position that, in all probability, will be a desperate need on this team; as against a guy who you've already stated is not much more than a back-up tight end.

    WHAT SAY YE?
    Last edited by Nick; -08-18-2006 at 05:49 PM. Reason: Merging back to back posts

  15. #30
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    Re: Anyone here really think J. Collins...

    so you would rather see the team draft another defensive tackle, even though they already had drafted one, despite the fact that the Rams had drafted so many DTs previously? Compare that with a position that was desperately in need of a stand out starter, i would rather draft two TEs, have one of them start and have a capable backup then draft two DTs and rely on Klopfenstein working out.

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