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  1. #31
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    Re: Art Valero on his way to St. Louis?

    Quote Originally Posted by rammiser View Post
    So If Loserhan drafts players that arent that great according to you then Boudreau should be the one to take the fall when he with a proven track record cant get them to improve. Yeah, makes sense to me.
    A coach who continually drafts poor players will likely be held responsible for that by no longer having the final say about which picks to make or having more input from other sources. It should be noted that for this discussion's purposes, Linehan wasn't the one who drafted Barron or Incognito either.

    But yes, it's the primary job of position coaches to improve the players at the position which they coach. For Bourdeau, that means guys like Barron, Incognito, Romberg, Setterstrom. According to the Wagoner write-up about Bourdeau's firing, none of these guys made progress in 2007 and Barron took steps backwards under Bourdeau. Those are issues outside of injuries that he can be evaluated on.

    Quote Originally Posted by rammiser View Post
    Also I could give a squat what colleges he coached for
    Well I don't doubt that, considering you apparently didn't bother looking into the guy before declaring he wasn't qualified for the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by rammiser View Post
    Also it doesnt have to be one or the other well according to you it does but working with the o-line once in a while and being their coach is two different things.
    I never claimed otherwise. However, it was you who claimed Valero had no experience coaching offensive lines at the pro level. Again, I find that highly unlikely seeing as how he was the assistant head coach in Tampa for two years. He likely worked with the offensive line at times throughout that period. Was it to the same degree the position coach did? Probably not, but to say he has no experience coaching them, as you did, is likely inaccurate. That was my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by rammiser View Post
    Also why is it that Loserhan gets a bye because of injuries and everyone says well the players have to perform and execute. Yet Paul gets fired because of injuries and players not executing. It's either one or the other for all coaches right?
    How do you know Paul got fired because of injuries? As I pointed out earlier, there are things Bourdeau could be judged on even with all the injuries, and based on what Wagoner wrote, the results were not in Bourdeau's favor. There are also things Linehan can be judged on even with all the injuries, which have likely resulted in him being on the hot seat for 2008.

    As for why Bourdeau's failures were enough to get him fired but Linehan's were not, it's hard to say. We're not privy to the evaluation process, but I'm sure Linehan as a head coach and Bourdeau as a positions coach are not held to the exact same standard or evaluated on the exact same criteria.

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  2. #32
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    Re: Art Valero on his way to St. Louis?

    .

    Should I be worried that this guy apparently hasn't been a OL coach in the NFL ever?




    I see that's been covered -- but it was my first reaction. It would be nice to bring in someone
    that has already had success as a OL coach in the NFL.
    Last edited by Tony Soprano; -01-10-2008 at 08:01 PM.

  3. #33
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    Re: Art Valero on his way to St. Louis?

    Quote Originally Posted by rammiser View Post
    Also it doesnt have to be one or the other well according to you it does but working with the o-line once in a while and being their coach is two different things. So once again it's proven track record vs unproves track record.
    But this is such a league of "now". Where what you'd done in the past isn't anywhere near as important as what you've done presently. Didam Cameron's job get spared in Miami because of what he'd previously done with the Chargers offense?

    Therefore, the proven track record, in this case, belongs to Valero. Boudreau did not engineer a successful offensive line in St.Louis. The players were inured, yes, but they did not show the growth to warrant a renewal of his contract. You look at this line, and every position has a question mark.

    Is Pace coming back?
    Is Setterstrom the answer?
    How good is Romberg?
    Can Incognito improve his manner?
    Will Barron ever learn to count?

    Doesn't speak well for a coach's resume, does it?

    Valero, on the other hand, was Assistant Head Coach on a playoff team. I can't tell you how much that means. Playoff coaches are, by rights, the best coaches in the league. Reaching the post-season says that you've utilised the personnel available to you in a winning fashion.

    Tell me he hasn't had more success than Boudreau recently?

  4. #34
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    Re: Art Valero on his way to St. Louis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bar-bq View Post
    But this is such a league of "now". Where what you'd done in the past isn't anywhere near as important as what you've done presently. Didam Cameron's job get spared in Miami because of what he'd previously done with the Chargers offense?

    Therefore, the proven track record, in this case, belongs to Valero. Boudreau did not engineer a successful offensive line in St.Louis. The players were inured, yes, but they did not show the growth to warrant a renewal of his contract. You look at this line, and every position has a question mark.


    Valero, on the other hand, was Assistant Head Coach on a playoff team. I can't tell you how much that means. Playoff coaches are, by rights, the best coaches in the league. Reaching the post-season says that you've utilised the personnel available to you in a winning fashion.

    Tell me he hasn't had more success than Boudreau recently?

    One has to wonder why an Assistant Head Coach on a playoff team would want to be an O-Line coach in St. Louis.

    There's no track record as an O-line coach in the NFL.


  5. #35
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    Re: Art Valero on his way to St. Louis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Soprano View Post
    One has to wonder why an Assistant Head Coach on a playoff team would want to be an O-Line coach in St. Louis.

    There's no track record as an O-line coach in the NFL.
    its just a way to kill time...the 08 season is already in the dumps just by looking at our coaching staff. linehan is going to be released after next season for sure. which would mean that we would have a whole new coaching staff.

    i honestly believe that the reason he is the OLine coach is because they need to kill time...

  6. #36
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    Re: Art Valero on his way to St. Louis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Soprano View Post
    .

    Should I be worried that this guy apparently hasn't been a OL coach in the NFL ever?





    Not at all ... Linehan didn't have any experience as a head coach in the NFL and look what he's been able to accomplish. You've got to think outside the box when hiring NFL coaches these days ... the Rams braintrust true to form is WAY outside the box ..

    Actually, sarcasm aside, it isn't easy to judge people fairly when you're jaded by a 3-13 season. Bar-bq and Nick bring up good points about Boudreau and Valero. It isn't Art's fault that the Rams had such a dismal record ... not yet anyway. Never the less, right now it isn't easy for many Ram fans to resist griping when Linehan brings in more of his buddies. After 3-13, it's hard to see the slate as clean for 2008.

  7. #37
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    Re: Art Valero on his way to St. Louis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    But yes, it's the primary job of position coaches to improve the players at the position which they coach. For Bourdeau, that means guys like Barron, Incognito, Romberg, Setterstrom. According to the Wagoner write-up about Bourdeau's firing, none of these guys made progress in 2007 and Barron took steps backwards under Bourdeau. Those are issues outside of injuries that he can be evaluated on.
    Really, so why hasn't Linehan been evaluated on his perfomance outside of the injuries. Everyone wants to give him a mulligan because of the injuries. I just think it's a sham that they fired this guy. Most of the names you mentioned above didn't really even play because of injury and Barron played out of position. This is an appeasement move by the Front Office. They just want to look like they're doing something without actually addressing the whole problem.

  8. #38
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    Re: Art Valero on his way to St. Louis?

    Quote Originally Posted by moloch41 View Post
    Really, so why hasn't Linehan been evaluated on his perfomance outside of the injuries.
    Who's to say he hasn't? We have no idea what extent the front office evaluated Linehan's performance, but I would be surprised if a detailed evaluation hasn't occurred. Fans and the media have been evaluating him all year, and even people who cite injuries as our biggest obstacle this year (like myself) have been critical of the coach as well.

    As for everyone wanting to give Linehan a mulligan, that's just plain inaccurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by moloch41 View Post
    Most of the names you mentioned above didn't really even play because of injury and Barron played out of position.
    Romberg played and started nine games, more than half the season. He's still as big a question mark now as he was last year, no real improvement. Barron did flip to the left side, but he was a college LT and was considered by some to be our LT of the future after Pace left, and according to Wagoner, he regressed under Bourdeau. Setterstrom and Incognito didn't play much but did play, and their performance in those games can be examined.

    Quote Originally Posted by moloch41 View Post
    This is an appeasement move by the Front Office. They just want to look like they're doing something without actually addressing the whole problem.
    Maybe it was, who knows? I have no inside source at the front office to verify whether it was or not, and I doubt anyone here does either. But that doesn't change what we've seen and read, which suggests that outside of the injuries there were areas where Bourdeau simply did not have a positive effect helping the players on his unit improve.
    Last edited by Nick; -01-11-2008 at 03:41 PM.
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  9. #39
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    Re: Art Valero on his way to St. Louis?

    Quote Originally Posted by moloch41 View Post
    Really, so why hasn't Linehan been evaluated on his perfomance outside of the injuries. Everyone wants to give him a mulligan because of the injuries. I just think it's a sham that they fired this guy. Most of the names you mentioned above didn't really even play because of injury and Barron played out of position. This is an appeasement move by the Front Office. They just want to look like they're doing something without actually addressing the whole problem.
    The whole problem? Isn't the elephant in the room an impending change in ownership? The fact that Linehan is being retained while guys like Boudreau have been canned suggests to me that Shaw is unwilling to saddle a future owner with unwanted baggage in the form of big dollar coaching contracts, which the new owner would have to eat when he cleans house prior to installing his own guys ...

  10. #40
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    Re: Art Valero on his way to St. Louis?

    This dude was a sacrificial lamb for the Linehan regime- plain and simple. I'm not sure why they think Barron took a step backwards- weren't his penalties actually down from last year?

  11. #41
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    Re: Art Valero on his way to St. Louis?

    Quote Originally Posted by moloch41 View Post
    I'm not sure why they think Barron took a step backwards- weren't his penalties actually down from last year?
    In 2006, Barron was flagged 14 times according to Stats Inc. By my count going through the NFL.com play by play accounts, Barron was flagged 16 times this season, two of which I believe were declined to bring to the total to 14 once again. False starts were down, holding was up. Additionally, a determination as to whether or not Barron regressed is probably also based not just on penalties but his efficiency blocking during the season.
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  12. #42
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    Re: Art Valero on his way to St. Louis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Well you've made it pretty clear that you didn't take one peek at his résumé before concluding he wasn't qualified. He's been an O-line coach six different times in his 27-year coaching career. He also was an offensive lineman in college.
    .....but you left out the best part; he was a Tight Ends coach for Tampa early on. Is there a pattern starting to form here?? After with our surplus of TE's he could a multi-tasker!

  13. #43
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    Re: Art Valero on his way to St. Louis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    False starts were down, holding was up. Additionally, a determination as to whether or not Barron regressed is probably also based not just on penalties but his efficiency blocking during the season.

    Personally, I think the guy is a first round bust, but he did play out of position this year (I know he played LT in college), so the fact that holding is up doesn't surprise me. I just didn't see a regression in him because he was never high up there enough and I think this firing is completely bogus and still excuses Linehan from any blame for this team's horrible performance this year. To say that our Head Coach shouldn't be judged because of the injuries and then fire the guy who was working directly with a bunch of grocery baggers is just outright laughable. It shows the utter lack of direction and accountability that this team continues to have.

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