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  1. #46
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    Re: Balzer says He wouldn't Draft Dorsey

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    Alright, I give. I'll still say it will be a mistake not to take him no matter what the Dr's say. Let's just go with Gholston who takes off some plays but has "god-like" combine numbers.
    That's one option Tx.

    Hang in there dude, the Tax deadline is almost here!


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    Re: Balzer says He wouldn't Draft Dorsey

    Here's another thing I find comical. That people think our main need is DE. It's not just DE. We need another DT. Glover is old. We need LB's. We lost a workhorse in Chillar. We need DB's. Brown was a huge loss. We need WR's. C'mon Bennett/Holt isn't in the top 15 combos in the league. We need an OT. Pace is getting up there.

    However, it seems like a bunch of us are just focused on DE. Ok, draft 3 of them this year. Little is getting up there and Hall isn't very good. Victor hasn't played worth a squat so you need 3 for rotation purposes then draft 3 and get it over with.

    I guess DE is a pretty big hole in the priorities but it's opposite of Little and LL has a lot of game left in him. More than Glover. And what about Spoon and his blitzing ability? Did pretty good when LL went down.
    Last edited by txramsfan; -04-12-2008 at 03:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    I don't put to much stock into this lingering injury. Did anyone watch him against Ohio State this year? The man was a monster in the middle.

    He didn't look too injured to me. I like Howard, had some beers and cool discussion with him. However, I don't think he's right on this one.
    No, he didn't look injured, because he gives 100% effort on every play even if he's playing with pain. So the Ohio State game certainly didn't prove that he doesn't have a lingering injury.
    If the hairline fracture heals, or even if it remains as is and gets no worse, Dorsey will probably be able to continue to play his typical high effort game. I think the worry is, that the hairline fracture could become worse, to the point where he can't play effectively with it.

  4. #49
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Balzer says He wouldn't Draft Dorsey

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    Here's another thing I find comical. That people think our main need is DE. It's not just DE.
    Has anyone said our only need is defensive end? I don't think this case has ever been made. No one's ever said our need is just DE, so I'm not following you here.

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    We need another DT. Glover is old.
    Then let's replace Glover by finding another situational pass rusher, since that's what Glover is.

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    We need LB's. We lost a workhorse in Chillar.
    ...and seem to feel confident that either Draft or Culberson can replace him on the strong side.

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    We need DB's. Brown was a huge loss.
    Agreed, and it's possible the Rams could strike on a CB as soon as the second round if the value is there.

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    We need WR's. C'mon Bennett/Holt isn't in the top 15 combos in the league.
    And I've been advocating for taking a receiver with our second round pick for a while now, because the value there will likely be good.

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    We need an OT. Pace is getting up there.
    Which is why Jake Long is still an option with our first pick, as our other prospects in this fairly talented tackle class.

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    However, it seems like a bunch of us are just focused on DE.
    How do you figure? The defensive end discussion is getting a lot of attention because of the possibility of addressing it early with our first round pick. That doesn't mean other needs aren't recognized as existing, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    And what about Spoon and his blitzing ability? Did pretty good when LL went down.
    Okay, but what about it? Successful 4-3 teams shouldn't have to rely on constantly blitzing a linebacker just to generate pressure. They should be able to do it with their four-man front.

  5. #50
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    Re: Balzer says He wouldn't Draft Dorsey

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Then let's replace Glover by finding another situational pass rusher, since that's what Glover is.
    Why not try and replace him with someone better and much younger who can be counted on to be more than a just situational guy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Okay, but what about it? Successful 4-3 teams shouldn't have to rely on constantly blitzing a linebacker just to generate pressure. They should be able to do it with their four-man front.
    Absolutely !! And drafting Glen Dorsey would go a long ways in helping our front 4 generate the needed pressure .. Right .. ??


  6. #51
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    Dorsey is not only gaining ground among the NFL Draft pundits as of late but here in the Clan too. I tell you, this is getting too difficult for me to surmise. Great arguments fellows.

    My 2nd pick voter board:
    Glenn Dorsey -----> 33%
    Vernon Gholston--> 33%
    Chris Long --------> 33%
    Jake Long ---------> 1%


  7. #52
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    Re: Balzer says He wouldn't Draft Dorsey

    Quote Originally Posted by MauiRam View Post
    Why not try and replace him with someone better and much younger who can be counted on to be more than a just situational guy?
    But that's the thing - we're talking about replacing a situational player, not a starter. We have our future starter at UT in Carriker. Glover is a back-up, so when replacing him, we should find a better, younger back-up. You can do that without spending the second overall pick there.

    Quote Originally Posted by MauiRam View Post
    Absolutely !! And drafting Glen Dorsey would go a long ways in helping our front 4 generate the needed pressure .. Right .. ??
    I think that's debatable, to be honest. Though he's able to get great penetration and shows good quickness off the line, I don't think Glenn Dorsey has proven himself to be an elite pass rusher. He certainly doesn't have the college numbers to support it - only 13 sacks and seven QB pressures in 51 games.

  8. #53
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    Re: Balzer says He wouldn't Draft Dorsey

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    But that's the thing - we're talking about replacing a situational player, not a starter. We have our future starter at UT in Carriker. Glover is a back-up, so when replacing him, we should find a better, younger back-up. You can do that without spending the second overall pick there.
    We need a 3 man rotation to keep guys fresh - like you stated earlier the front four should be good enoug to generate pressure on their own. With Dorsey in that rotation we wouldn't be dependent on the blitz to create pressure ..
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I think that's debatable, to be honest. Though he's able to get great penetration and shows good quickness off the line, I don't think Glenn Dorsey has proven himself to be an elite pass rusher. He certainly doesn't have the college numbers to support it - only 13 sacks and seven QB pressures in 51 games.
    How many guys around him got sacks due to his efforts? There was a reason Glen drew so many double-teams in college ..

  9. #54
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    Re: Balzer says He wouldn't Draft Dorsey

    Quote Originally Posted by MauiRam View Post
    We need a 3 man rotation to keep guys fresh
    So then let's find a third guy to replace Glover who can be part of that rotation. I'm not sure how that statement supports drafting Dorsey specifically; rather it illustrates the need for depth, which you can establish without spending the second overall pick.

    Quote Originally Posted by MauiRam View Post
    How many guys around him got sacks due to his efforts?
    To try and address the question, only one other LSU defender besides Dorsey had more than four sacks last year (DE Kirston Pittman). LSU finished 27th in the NCAA in sacks - good but not great. Standout defensive end Tyson Jackson, who accumulated eight sacks the year before, racked up only 3.5 this year.

    I agree that the attention Dorsey may command means that someone else - namely Little - could likely be freed up to make more plays. But Little is going to turn 34 and is coming off of a significant injury. Is he still capable of being that playmaker? On the other side, Hall is a mediocre pass rusher who likely doesn't need extra attention, so I have to wonder how much he'd be affected. He was an average DT in Detroit with Shaun Rogers on the inside. Is he suddenly going to break out at age 31 with Dorsey next to him? I doubt it.

    I also think you have to ask yourself if it's really the best use of the second overall pick to draft a guy who is essentially tying up opponents so others can make plays. With that price tag, I want a guy who's also going to be the playmaker himself. While I think Dorsey has the skills necessary to do that, his college production makes me wonder if he'll live up to the billing at the next level where opposition is only going to get tougher.

    Regardless of whether or not we take Dorsey though, we'll still have a need at DE. Because even if he helps make those ends better, we're talking about two 30+ year old ends who aren't long term answers. So we'll still have to spend resources at that position. The difference is do you pass on Dorsey to take a top prospect like Chris Long or Vernon Gholston, or do you take Dorsey and hope a later round guy with a lower grade develops into a stud at the next level?

    As I see it, taking Dorsey means shifting Carriker to a position he's less suited for and benching an emerging talent in Ryan. We'll have improved a position that was already looking as if it was improving, while doing little to improve a position desperately in need of young talent. So for my money, I'd rather have Chris Long and then find a third DT later on.

    That's not to say I'd hate the Dorsey pick. I can certainly recognize the skills he brings to the line and his ability as a prospect - after all, I consider him one of the top five players in this class. I trust that if the Rams take him, it's because they feel confident about his health and have a plan to use both he and Carriker to the best of their abilities. Should we take Dorsey, I would cheer him on every Sunday, no question. But that said, I simply don't see him as the best pick for the Rams, given that [1] I believe there are other prospects of good value that would better address areas on this team that are weaker than DT, [2] I think Dorsey's selection has an adverse effect on Carriker (who would have to shift away from his best spot) and Ryan (who would be restricted to backup duty), and [3] there remain significant questions about Dorsey's health that make me pretty nervous.
    Last edited by Nick; -04-13-2008 at 04:41 AM.

  10. #55
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    Re: Balzer says He wouldn't Draft Dorsey

    Nick, I see your point but to me Dorsey is one of those "one in five year" players. A real difference maker. I watch more SEC football than any other (maybe that's why I don't know the wideout for Portland State but I digress) and Dorsey has "it". He's the replacement for London Fletcher. He's the guy who gets everyone else fired up. He's in your face if you don't do your job. He goes strong every play. He's the heart and soul of the defense. Right now, the Rams haven't had that fire since Fletcher left. Dorsey has the intangibles to go along with the skill that to me negates the injury factor.

  11. #56
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    Re: Balzer says He wouldn't Draft Dorsey

    As for the DE arguement, take Groves in the second round. That would help. This team is getting better but it's nowhere near a playoff team. It's going to take last year, this year, and next years draft to possibly get it where it needs to be. That's why to me, and to me only, passing on Dorsey would be a mistake because in Dorsey we get the guy who could get the whole defense going better. He's the leader we are missing. To pass up on him because we need a DE is just not a good argument for me. If the Rams were just a DE away from the Super Bowl then it would be a different story. However, we aren't.

  12. #57
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    Re: Balzer says He wouldn't Draft Dorsey

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    Dorsey has the intangibles to go along with the skill that to me negates the injury factor.
    But that's the thing. You can't negate the injury because it's there and it's real! Maybe it doesn't become an issue and he plays with it for the rest of his career. Maybe the more intense and physical pro game causes complications that require medical intervention, and it never heals properly. These are the things that have to be examined when it comes to the injury. I really hope the team doesn't just negate them because of his intangibles.

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    As for the DE arguement, take Groves in the second round.
    Very good chance he's not there. Besides, by taking a DT in round one and DE in round two, you've lessened our ability to address other spots like WR, OT, CB, etc. Am I right in remembering that a few months ago you kept saying how you'd be screaming if the Rams didn't take a WR in the first two rounds? But now they should take a DT/DE with those picks?

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    This team is getting better but it's nowhere near a playoff team.
    Tampa Bay was 4-12 in 2006 and made the playoffs last year. Same for Cleveland. In today's NFL, teams can turn it around very quickly, especially when you consider how much of our struggles in 2007 were related to injury issues and simply not having the personnel we needed. I simply can't agree that we're no where near a playoff team. I don't think anyone in the NFC West has a lock-down on the division title.

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    To pass up on him because we need a DE is just not a good argument for me.
    But we both know that's not all there is to the argument, right? You can't just break it down so it's only about taking a DE because we need a DE. It's also about how Dorsey fits onto the line and what that means for our other players, whether or not he really is that "once in five years" player despite college production that may suggest otherwise, and it's also about his own injury issues which remain an issue that needs to be heavily evaluated.

  13. #58
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    Re: Balzer says He wouldn't Draft Dorsey

    Nick, all those are valid points but to me the injury isn't a major factor. It's minor. Anybody can have a hairline fracture that goes undetected for years. Most of the time it doesn't affect you physically.

    And about Dorsey fitting into the line. He may be the best DT to come out of college in a very long time. Do you pass that up just because you have a guy like Ryan who has potential? I don't. Why not fit both Dorsey and Carriker in the line, and don't say you can't with Carriker because of technique issues. If the boy can play, he can play no matter if you stick him at NT or UT or QT.

    And yes, in the NFL you can turn it around quickly.....IF you have talent in the stable. On defense, we are no where near having enough talent especially with Brown's situation and losing Chillar. I have high hopes for Culberson but that's just it....hope.

    Hey, I'm cool with whoever we draft but I have to cast my vote for Dorsey as I think he has more to offer than just a roster spot. He brings leadership which he has exhibited at LSU. I didn't see enough of Chris Long to know if he does or not but I have watched Dorsey and he's a leader which this defense is severly lacking.

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    Re: Balzer says He wouldn't Draft Dorsey

    Ahh....it's all a moot point anyway because when it comes to the first round pick in the draft who I want the Rams don't pick anyway (Cromartie).


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    Re: Balzer says He wouldn't Draft Dorsey

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    But that's the thing. You can't negate the injury because it's there and it's real! Maybe it doesn't become an issue and he plays with it for the rest of his career. Maybe the more intense and physical pro game causes complications that require medical intervention, and it never heals properly. These are the things that have to be examined when it comes to the injury. I really hope the team doesn't just negate them because of his intangibles.

    Highly unlikely that would occur. If he is determined by Ram doctors to be a "walking time-bomb" as Howard Balzar so delicately put it, then we won't take him. The crack in his tibia isn't a career threatening injury, but since he will be picked so high, naturally interested teams would like an early return on their investment. Understandable .. But, I agree with Tex - his intangibles trump the non-career threatening injury concerns. For heaven's sake, we have wasted money on the likes of Jimmy Kennedy and D. Lewis. Even if Dorsey had to endure some down time to repair the crack, he'd still be a young guy with his entire career ahead of him, and could anchor our D-line for many years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Besides, by taking a DT in round one and DE in round two, you've lessened our ability to address other spots like WR, OT, CB, etc.
    We'll still have 7 picks after our 2nd selection, additionally we would have significantly upgraded our D-line. We won't be bankrupted if we select a DE in rd 2. I believe there will be solid WR talent in rounds 3 and 4 anyway. Personally I am not that high on Groves, but taking a DE in round two certainly won't ruin our draft.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Tampa Bay was 4-12 in 2006 and made the playoffs last year. Same for Cleveland. In today's NFL, teams can turn it around very quickly, especially when you consider how much of our struggles in 2007 were related to injury issues and simply not having the personnel we needed. I simply can't agree that we're no where near a playoff team. I don't think anyone in the NFC West has a lock-down on the division title.
    Agreed! Mediocrity abounds throughout the NFC West ..
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    But we both know that's not all there is to the argument, right? You can't just break it down so it's only about taking a DE because we need a DE. It's also about how Dorsey fits onto the line and what that means for our other players, whether or not he really is that "once in five years" player despite college production that may suggest otherwise, and it's also about his own injury issues which remain an issue that needs to be heavily evaluated.
    Agreed on the injury evaluation. How he fits in? How about the versatility he would afford Haslett in creating varied defensive alignments? Is he a slam dunk? We simply don't know -- he's either everything the Rams have hoped for or he isn't. You could say the same thing about Chris Long or Gholston though. Long has been handled by big guys in college. What will happen when he has to face bigger and stronger guys with NFL caliber talent on every down? Can he really beat out J. Hall in his rookie season? We don't know the answer to these questions either. Gholston has question marks as well. I doubt anyone on this board (myself included) will be crying if either of the Longs or Gholston is the pick. My preference is for Dorsey.

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