Bartell vs. Atogwe: If you could only keep one...

[Goldenfleece]

My vote goes to Atogwe, who is leading the team in interceptions for the second year in a row. O.J. has 12 of the team's 25 interceptions over the last two years. Bartell has 3 over the same time period. While I do agree that it can be hard to find a really good corner with Bartell's combination of size and speed, he's still not exactly at the level where opposing teams are going to make a point not to throw to his side of the field. Atogwe, on the other hand, would probably be in the discussion if you were going to try to name the top ten safeties in the league.

Would we have even won against the Redskins if Atogwe hadn't forced a fumble and run it 75 yards back for a touchdown?

[laram0]

Atogwe for me.

Although they play 2 different positions here are their numbers:

Tackles

OJ (66) RB (47)

Interceptions

OJ (4) RB (1)

Forced Fumbles

OJ (5) RB (1)

Recovered Fumbles

OJ (2) RB (0)

Defensive TDs

OJ (1) RB (0)

Passes Defended

OJ (4) RB (13)

Both guys are very good players and I would hate to lose either one of them. OJ's ball hawking skills are huge in my opinion.

[r8rh8rmike]

Speaking of numbers, In terms of INT/FF totals in combination, Atogwe leads the entire NFL with 9. That's an ability and skill set too valuable to let go IMO.

[RamsInfiniti]

Speaking of numbers, In terms of INT/FF totals in combination, Atogwe leads the entire NFL with 9. That's an ability and skill set too valuable to let go IMO.

Thanks for pointing this out again. No matter how many times I've brought up the fact that O.J. leads the NFL in forced turnovers this year (he was 3rd in 2007, and 6th in 2006), the typical response seems to be that he is average in coverage and not a very good tackler. Complete disregard for his ability as a ball hawk. If Atogwe had elite tackling and coverage skills, on top of his ability to get to the ball, he could possibly be one of the greatest safeties ever. Isn't that expecting a bit much at this point?

Well, fact is, you can teach someone to be better in coverage, you can teach someone to be a better tackler ...

You cannot teach someone to force turnovers. O.J. has a knack to be around the ball and be able to knock it away ...

One thing that stands out about O.J. to me is that he never gives up on a play. Whether its a stop at the LOS, or a runner is 30 yards down field, he tries to make something happen. I remember at least half a dozen times where O.J. forced a fumble from a runner who had gotten loose into open space. These types of plays are mulligans for the defense, and can reset the momentum ...

Fact is, he is doing it year after year. Three straight years Atogwe was in the top 6 in forced turnovers. How many years does a guy have to do it before he is no longer considered lucky?

Atogwe's weaknesses can be covered up by improving the skilled players around him. His weaknesses may improve as he gets more experienced. But you cannot just pull a guy off the street and have him wreck the havoc he has, in terms of taking the ball away ...

Bartell is a fine player, no doubt. But I just think you have to take Atogwe here. He has abilities that cannot be taught ...

[RamsInfiniti]

My vote goes to Atogwe, who is leading the team in interceptions for the second year in a row. O.J. has 12 of the team's 25 interceptions over the last two years. Bartell has 3 over the same time period. While I do agree that it can be hard to find a really good corner with Bartell's combination of size and speed, he's still not exactly at the level where opposing teams are going to make a point not to throw to his side of the field. Atogwe, on the other hand, would probably be in the discussion if you were going to try to name the top ten safeties in the league.

Would we have even won against the Redskins if Atogwe hadn't forced a fumble and run it 75 yards back for a touchdown?

That's not the first time an Atogwe play had a direct impact on a victory. How about the forced fumble on Betts to lead to the victory over the Redskins in 2006?

How about the INT in the endzone to seal the win over the 49'ers last year?

Those are two that stand out, but with 15 INT's and 10 FF's in the last three years, I am sure that many more of these had huge impacts on the end results of certain games ...

[shower beers]

I have to go with Atowge. Turnovers are hard to come by, especially on this team, and take away the turnovers he has produced, and we have nothing. There's simply not enough depth behind Atogwe to rationalize letting him go in favor of Bartell, with Brown, Hill, King, Manning, Craft, etc. behind him. Now, the quality of that depth remains to be seen, but there's simply no other replacement for an Atogwe at this point.

Simply put, turnovers win games. Just ask nearly all of our opponents this year.

[itsguud]

I can't believe that this is even a consideration... OJ all the way here. Numbers prove themselves and thats playing on a terrible D. He can't tackle... who cares I'd rather have LB's that could tackle, which we don't. OJ is the man.

[RealRam]

Simply put, turnovers win games. Just ask nearly all of our opponents this year.

OUCH! What would've been with out Atogwe's INTs?

[rammiser]

I chose Atogwe just because although i think both should be signed Bartell looks as good as he does because our corners are just bad. On top of that Atogwe makes plays and that is hard to come buy. Sure you can bang on his tackling but I can find plenty of plays where Bartell gets beat and beaten badly. Atogwe has forced many fumbles when another team made a big play imagine if our team actually was good whata play like that can do for our team. Bartell is the best corner on a bad secondary and I hope we keep him but In my opinion Atogwe is a better player.

[39thebeast]

You can knock OJ for his tackling, but you can't knock him for his playamking ability. You can't coach play making, but you can coach tackling and proper angles. You bring in an excellent defensive coach in all aspects like Jim Schwartz and OJ is potentially Ed Reed IMO.

[Nick]

Which of the two is your preference Nick?

I would probably choose to keep Atogwe. I think he needs to make improvements in his tackling, angles to the ball carrier, and physicality. But there's no doubt that he's a turnover-creating machine.

Perhaps the biggest factor for me is our situation at either position. At cornerback, we're not good. But at least we have some capable bodies - Brown can start, we haven't seen what we have in Justin King yet, Hill could rebound, Craft has shown flashes of being a situational guy, etc. Behind Atogwe, we literally have nothing, unless you count Bassey who was a practice squad player this year until October.

Plus, the Rams may find themselves in a position to take a top corner in Jenkins this draft.

[MauiRam]

I would probably choose to keep Atogwe. I think he needs to make improvements in his tackling, angles to the ball carrier, and physicality. But there's no doubt that he's a turnover-creating machine.

Perhaps the biggest factor for me is our situation at either position. At cornerback, we're not good. But at least we have some capable bodies - Brown can start, we haven't seen what we have in Justin King yet, Hill could rebound, Craft has shown flashes of being a situational guy, etc. Behind Atogwe, we literally have nothing, unless you count Bassey who was a practice squad player this year until October.

Plus, the Rams may find themselves in a position to take a top corner in Jenkins this draft.

Very good explanation of your choice .. I voted for Bartell way back when you started this thread. Mostly my reason for leaning towards Bartell is that big fast cover corners are hard to come by in this league, and Bartell seems to be developing nicely. However after reading all the comments from fellow Clan Ram members, I am now split right down the middle. I'm glad at this point your question is purely hypothetical .. I sure hope Billy D. finds a way to re-sign both guys !!!

[Azul e Oro]

Since none of the top DBs in the NFL force fumbles at anything like the rate OJ has, I think the stat is over-rated. Too risky & luck-dependent.

It's old but this list of top safeties never mentions FFs. Getting turnovers by reading the O,covering your guy or supporting the DB who is covering him, and either making a play on the ball or hitting him hard (can lead to FFs but seldom does) and tackling surehandedly are mentioned repeatedly.Just sayin'...

SI.com - Writers - Jeffri Chadiha: Top*10 players at the NFL's hottest defensive position -- safety - Tuesday August 30, 2005 11:31AM

Passes defended, INTs, and tackles indicate to me whether a DB is doing his job consistently. OJ's numbers in all those categories are down this year but that may be a reflection of the team around him.

We need both guys desperately,imo, so it's Sophie's Choice. But I'll bet that if our D improves, OJ's forced fumbles will go down and the other stats will skyrocket. Bartell's performance this year makes me think he is key to that overall improvement.

Then again, big money looms for both players. We always seem to misjudge guys at this crucial career moment. So OJ has the edge since his "body of work" is is bigger than Ron's. But Fakhir is also UFA. Let the pothead go & keep Ron.

Aaaack...you are killing me with this one,Nick.

[viper]

I like both players and hope they both get signed. I had to go with OJ for his ability to get the ball out and his interceptions. As has been said before, where would we have been in so many of our games if he hadn't created a turnover. Nowhere and going backwards. He offers hope of something happening in most of our games. He just can't do it all by himself. The rest of the team needs to step up for the turnovers to make a difference.

[moloch41]

Bartell- it's a lot tougher to find a good corner, he's way more consistant, and is tougher against the run. Atogwe is a soft player who takes bad angles to the ball most of the time and refuses to hit anyone.