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Thread: Bernie: Giving up on Bradford for Griffin would have been wrong move ..

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    Re: Bernie: Giving up on Bradford for Griffin would have been wrong move ..

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    When fans intimate that Bradford didn't do his job, that he had only one great pass (a point someone actually made), that he looked skittish in the pocket, that he didn't look like a $50 million QB, or that he'll never be anything more than a game manager, then yeah, I'm going to speak my mind and make the case for Bradford, who I thought had a very good game under less than ideal conditions.

    As far as Givens, it would have been a tough catch, but he had both his mitts on the ball and couldn't bring it in. I never said he made a horrible play, I simply think it was a catchable ball. I called the pass what it was, an underthrow, and made no excuses for Bradford. Wouldn't it be great if Sam had someone like Johnson to help his cause and take advantage of those big play opportunities, like Stafford did on that underthrown 51 yarder?
    When it comes to making the case for Bradford, I have no problems with that. I myself mentioned in my response that I thought Bradford did pretty well against Detroit. But we've got to call a spade a spade. If the players around Sam are going to get criticized when they make mistakes, it's only fair Sam takes his fair share as well. By the same token, when Sam makes plays and performs well on the field, it deserves to be heralded, which is why I started a thread saying as much after he rocked the Ravens pre-season finale.

    I get that you aren't trying to make excuses for him, but when the primary point of your comment on the play is about what else Givens could have done beyond already having done his job rather than how Sam could have avoided the messy situation entirely by simply delivering an accurate pass, it can come across as an excuse.

    I do agree that it would be great if Sam had the best receiver in the league to throw to, but sadly he doesn't. Until he does, he's going to have to make the best out of the ones he's got, especially when they do exactly what they're asked to do and give him a great opportunity to make a play.

    Thankfully, he was able to do that with Gibson, exactly when this team needed him to do so. I thought that touchdown pass was a huge moment for him, as he was able to rebound from some earlier misses and make a great play in the clutch for his team. I'm looking forward to seeing more of that this season.
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    Re: Bernie: Giving up on Bradford for Griffin would have been wrong move ..

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    When fans intimate that Bradford didn't do his job, that he had only one great pass (a point someone actually made), that he looked skittish in the pocket, that he didn't look like a $50 million QB, or that he'll never be anything more than a game manager, then yeah, I'm going to speak my mind and make the case for Bradford, who I thought had a very good game under less than ideal conditions.
    Who are these fans you are referring to? You are going back and forth with Nick and I, and we have not made any of those arguments. You keep putting up that straw man.

    Whether Bradford is growing or regressing is a debatable and is a regular topic in the national media. I don't know the answer to that, I don't even think the experts know that. I just think excuses are pointless and the offense needs to move the ball. I am glad Bradford pulled it together in the 4th quarter last week, hopefully he builds on that experience.

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    Re: Bernie: Giving up on Bradford for Griffin would have been wrong move ..

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I get that you aren't trying to make excuses for him, but when the primary point of your comment on the play is about what else Givens could have done beyond already having done his job rather than how Sam could have avoided the messy situation entirely by simply delivering an accurate pass, it can come across as an excuse.
    Funny how things on a message board don't always come across as they are intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by swatter555 View Post
    Who are these fans you are referring to? You are going back and forth with Nick and I, and we have not made any of those arguments. You keep putting up that straw man.
    Who are these fans? Ask Av, he quit posting for several days in part because of all the over-the-top Bradford criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by swatter555 View Post
    Whether Bradford is growing or regressing is a debatable and is a regular topic in the national media. I don't know the answer to that, I don't even think the experts know that. I just think excuses are pointless and the offense needs to move the ball. I am glad Bradford pulled it together in the 4th quarter last week, hopefully he builds on that experience.
    Regardless of what the experts think, there is no doubt in my mind that Bradford grew in the Detroit game. From the first possession scoring drive drive where he went 4 of 5 for 52 yards, to leading the scoring drives in the 4th quarter when it mattered.
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    Re: Bernie: Giving up on Bradford for Griffin would have been wrong move ..

    I think Av hit it on the head, we are over analyzing this to death. In the long run we all want him to play at a high level. The best we can hope for is he stays healthy and continues to keep working hard. And that goes for all the players, which it sounds like they have all bought into what Fisher is about.

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    Re: Bernie: Giving up on Bradford for Griffin would have been wrong move ..

    San Bradford is hardly the first QC that has been criticized for his perceived poor play, lack of growth, etc. I think of Eli Manning- a guy who was maligned for several years by both fans and media. And much of the criticism was justified, incidentally. His response? He's won two Super Bowls in 4 years- both as underdogs, by the way- and has established himself as a top 5 QB in the NFL. He won despite the 32nd ranked running attack in football. He helped put an undrafted free agent, Victor Cruz on the map. And you know what? Manning STILL ISN'T RESPECTED in some circles!! Bottom line: The QB will always be a lightning rod for criticism. We can bellyache and excuse make all we want about a lack of weapons, lack of protection, no talent, etc, but after awhile it becomes stale. And until Sam Bradford commands a team that wins consistently, nothing is going to change in that regard.

    Fair or unfair, that's the way it is.
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    Re: Bernie: Giving up on Bradford for Griffin would have been wrong move ..

    Thanks everyone! I am so relieved! I didn't realize that Bradford becoming an elite QB was set in stone. I feel much better now.

    I don't think Eli Manning is a good comparison if that is the point you want to make. Anyway, man I hate the position I have been put in here. Now I am one of the Bradford "Chicken Littles." The only thing I ask for is an honest appraisel and that puts me out of the mainstream here. So be it I suppose.

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    Re: Bernie: Giving up on Bradford for Griffin would have been wrong move ..

    Quote Originally Posted by swatter555 View Post
    " The only thing I ask for is an honest appraisel and that puts me out of the mainstream here. So be it I suppose.
    Here is an honest guy giving you his evaluation of Bradford. The question is do you want to accept it?

    101ESPN.com: Audio Player - Kurt Warner

    The question is do you want to listen? Can you live with the what the "appraisal" is?

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    Re: Bernie: Giving up on Bradford for Griffin would have been wrong move ..

    Quote Originally Posted by swatter555 View Post
    Thanks everyone! I am so relieved! I didn't realize that Bradford becoming an elite QB was set in stone. I feel much better now.

    I don't think Eli Manning is a good comparison if that is the point you want to make. Anyway, man I hate the position I have been put in here. Now I am one of the Bradford "Chicken Littles." The only thing I ask for is an honest appraisel and that puts me out of the mainstream here. So be it I suppose.
    Hey Swatter,

    I agree with many of your points regarding Brasford. I was the one that called Bradfords play Sunday mediocre. I think it was embelllished to state in another post by someone else that I said Bradford was never going to be anything but mediocre. Literary license....But I stand by my comment and opinion......which is what i thought this board was about, expressing opinions without retribution or personalization in a negative manner

    As NJ suggests, right or wrong the QB takes the heat. I would argue the QB that was drafted with the top pick takes even more heat. IMO, i see some who have blind loyalty to Sam because he dons a Ram uniform. i support Sam, he is the QB of my favorite team but I won't turn a blind eye when I see him not grasp the reins and take over a game. I am so hopeful that the 2nd half helped mark a huge growth step for sam and I eagerly await Sunday's game. We may be the minority but you do not stand alone.

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    Re: Bernie: Giving up on Bradford for Griffin would have been wrong move ..

    Quote Originally Posted by swatter555 View Post
    Thanks everyone! I am so relieved! I didn't realize that Bradford becoming an elite QB was set in stone. I feel much better now.

    I don't think Eli Manning is a good comparison if that is the point you want to make. Anyway, man I hate the position I have been put in here. Now I am one of the Bradford "Chicken Littles." The only thing I ask for is an honest appraisel and that puts me out of the mainstream here. So be it I suppose.
    Here's my honest appraisal.

    Sam Bradford has never played with a Pro Bowl level WR.
    Sam Bradford has never played with a Pro Bowl level TE.
    Sam Bradford has never played with a Pro Bowl level OT.
    Sam Bradford has had a revolving door at the OG/C positions.
    Sam Bradford has had three offensive coordinators in three years.

    Conclusion: nobody knows how good Sam Bradford could be.
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    Re: Bernie: Giving up on Bradford for Griffin would have been wrong move ..

    Quote Originally Posted by macrammer View Post
    Hey Swatter,

    I agree with many of your points regarding Brasford. I was the one that called Bradfords play Sunday mediocre. I think it was embelllished to state in another post by someone else that I said Bradford was never going to be anything but mediocre. Literary license....But I stand by my comment and opinion......which is what i thought this board was about, expressing opinions without retribution or personalization in a negative manner

    As NJ suggests, right or wrong the QB takes the heat. I would argue the QB that was drafted with the top pick takes even more heat. IMO, i see some who have blind loyalty to Sam because he dons a Ram uniform. i support Sam, he is the QB of my favorite team but I won't turn a blind eye when I see him not grasp the reins and take over a game. I am so hopeful that the 2nd half helped mark a huge growth step for sam and I eagerly await Sunday's game. We may be the minority but you do not stand alone.
    I agree with the Literary license .... but aren't you doing what you just criticized by saying "blind loyalty" and " blind eye"?

    In this thread alone there are plenty of stats from the last game to indicate Bradford is playing better then he did last year. We are watching the games and looking at his numbers. We are looking to see what the players that have gone through the process and have played QB think of him. To say it's "blind" is just not true. IMO

    This really comes down to expectation IMO. Some equate a 1st pick to immediate play of an elite QB, regardless of the situation. While some are content to have him play steady, while he goes through the learning curve of become an established QB in the NFL. I choose the later... that being said if in three years from now if he is not the guy and this roster in loaded with all the talent from the recent bounty of draft picks. I will be the first to say let find our franchise QB.

    I'm NOT saying he is a lock but I don't see anything that tells me he won't be either.
    Last edited by Rambos; -09-15-2012 at 12:24 PM.

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    Re: Bernie: Giving up on Bradford for Griffin would have been wrong move ..

    Some guys are WAYYY to critical on Bradford. I mean c'mon, the guy isn't Jesus. He isn't going to turn 1 piece of bread into enough food to feed all of the U.S. The guy has clearly time after time shown that he is a terrific QB. Basically all of the "great" QB's in this league, have some sort of great support.

    Tom Brady- Hernandez, Gronkowski, Welker, Lloyd, Ridley
    Matt Stafford- Calvin, Pettigrew, Best, Young, Burleson
    Michael Vick- Maclin, Jackson, McCoy, Celek, Avant
    Andy Dalton- Green, Gresham
    Joe Flacco- Boldin, Smith, Pitta, Dickson, Rice
    Matt Ryan- Jones, White, Gonzalez, Douglas, Turner

    I can seriously do this for days. I mean if we can get Bradford a #1 WR, or a better offensive line (LG, RT) he can easily be a top 5 QB in this league. When Bradford has a clean pocket, he will absolutely pick you apart. I mean look at that pass he threw to Gibby last weekend for a TD. Picture perfect pass. He isn't perfect, and has missed MANY plays (The pass last week to Danny across the sideline, can't throw a fade apparently, trouble climbing the pocket, minimal pocket presence) but his positives heavily outweigh the things he can improve upon.
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    Re: Bernie: Giving up on Bradford for Griffin would have been wrong move ..

    This thread is like the Energizer Bunny.

    Quote Originally Posted by macrammer View Post
    I was the one that called Bradfords play Sunday mediocre. I think it was embelllished to state in another post by someone else that I said Bradford was never going to be anything but mediocre. Literary license....But I stand by my comment and opinion......which is what i thought this board was about, expressing opinions without retribution or personalization in a negative manner.
    Not sure if you're referencing me mac, but I'm pretty much the only one who specifically took exception to some of the over-the-top statements about Bradford and sounded off about them. That said, your comment was not something I had a problem with. Although I don't agree that he was mediocre against Detroit, I can understand that opinion. The comment from another thread that I did have a problem with, was that Bradford would never be anything other than a "game manager", as if the book was closed on him.

    All bellyaching aside, I just hope Bradford can get a reasonable chance with reasonable support to get where he needs to be and help this team win games, because he's not going to get it done all by himself.

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    Re: Bernie: Giving up on Bradford for Griffin would have been wrong move ..

    Quote Originally Posted by sosa39rams View Post
    Some guys are WAYYY to critical on Bradford. I mean c'mon, the guy isn't Jesus. He isn't going to turn 1 piece of bread into enough food to feed all of the U.S. The guy has clearly time after time shown that he is a terrific QB. Basically all of the "great" QB's in this league, have some sort of great support.

    Tom Brady- Hernandez, Gronkowski, Welker, Lloyd, Ridley
    Matt Stafford- Calvin, Pettigrew, Best, Young, Burleson
    Michael Vick- Maclin, Jackson, McCoy, Celek, Avant
    Andy Dalton- Green, Gresham
    Joe Flacco- Boldin, Smith, Pitta, Dickson, Rice
    Matt Ryan- Jones, White, Gonzalez, Douglas, Turner

    I can seriously do this for days. I mean if we can get Bradford a #1 WR, or a better offensive line (LG, RT) he can easily be a top 5 QB in this league. When Bradford has a clean pocket, he will absolutely pick you apart. I mean look at that pass he threw to Gibby last weekend for a TD. Picture perfect pass. He isn't perfect, and has missed MANY plays (The pass last week to Danny across the sideline, can't throw a fade apparently, trouble climbing the pocket, minimal pocket presence) but his positives heavily outweigh the things he can improve upon.
    I agree with the talent will help Bradford but don't agree that by adding Calvin Johnson to our roster that it makes Bradford a great QB. Just like a few guys on that list like, Matt Stafford, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan they are clearly on there way but none are great IMO.

    Andy Dalton, is much like Bradford had one good year, has a long way to go, but he has help to put up better numbers early in his career.

    Michael Vick is special but not a great QB IMO, not sure he will ever be great.


    Tom Brady is a great QB.

    My point is not to criticize Sosa list but to make the point. Even with more talent all young QB need to have time and put in the work to become great QB. Throwing the ball as far as you can and having a great receiver like Randy Moss make a great catches does not help a young QB become great. When we talk about great QB I never hear the name Culpepper mentioned do you?

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    Re: Bernie: Giving up on Bradford for Griffin would have been wrong move ..

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    This thread is like the Energizer Bunny.



    Not sure if you're referencing me mac, but I'm pretty much the only one who specifically took exception to some of the over-the-top statements about Bradford and sounded off about them. That said, your comment was not something I had a problem with. Although I don't agree that he was mediocre against Detroit, I can understand that opinion. The comment from another thread that I did have a problem with, was that Bradford would never be anything other than a "game manager", as if the book was closed on him.

    All bellyaching aside, I just hope Bradford can get a reasonable chance with reasonable support to get where he needs to be and help this team win games, because he's not going to get it done all by himself.
    No Mike, was not referencing you AND thank you for the civil response !! And I agree as I am SURE all Ram fans can agree with getting help from those around him. But, when it does happen Sam needs to deliver like he did in the 2nd hlaf last week. That was very encouraging. See you on chat tomorrow and I am really enjoying the direct tv deal.....almost don't think about the dish on my roof anymore
    Last edited by macrammer; -09-15-2012 at 08:34 PM.

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    Re: Bernie: Giving up on Bradford for Griffin would have been wrong move ..

    Quote Originally Posted by macrammer View Post
    No Mike, was not referencing you AND thank you for the civil response !! And I agree as I am SURE all Ram fans can agree with getting help rom those around him. But, when it does happen Sam needs to deliver like he did in the 2nd hlaf last week. That was very encouraging. See you on chat tomorrow and I am really enjoying the direct tv deal.....almost don't think about the dish on my roof anymore
    Good, I'm glad we don't have any issues mac. You're one of the good guys I have a lot of respect for.

    That said, I'll never forgive you for not getting me a Directv referral discount!

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