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  1. #76
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    Re: Boston Herald-Possible Rams/Pats Superbowl Spygate?

    It's pretty much known that the unnamed source for the story is Matt Walsh, who most likely is the one that filmed the walkthrough. It's just he won't talk, he's scared of being sued by the Patriots or The NFL or both. He says that the only way he will tell what he knows about the Patriots cheating ways (and it's believed he knows a heck of a lot) is that if his interviewers agree to pay all legal fees, fines, etc.. for whatever comes from what he says. Nobody is willing to do that because that cost could be very high.

    Enter Congress. If Specter is serious about having hearings on this then Walsh would be at the top of the list of potential witnesses. They could compel him to talk. So if were patient and Specter is serious about this we should have some hard answers in the next couple of months.


  2. #77
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    Re: Boston Herald-Possible Rams/Pats Superbowl Spygate?

    This does not surprise me; I painfully watched the replay the other night. In the end, none of this really matters ; there's no way the league will take action on anything that might have happened prior to the 2007 season. And we will not gat our much deserved second Lombardy Trophy. You have to remember that there is a new Commissioner, and I doubt he really wants to dig up anything from the past.

    Anyone want to bet the Pats coaching staff is reviewing tape of the Giants walk through from today?
    JUST WIN ONE FOR THE FANS


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  3. #78
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    Re: Boston Herald-Possible Rams/Pats Superbowl Spygate?

    AAAAARG!!! Why those ..."#!@&*~^ patriots." Pfff!

    Wouldn't it be something that SB XXXVI would at least -- and forever -- carry a special asterisk to favor the Rams in some way?

  4. #79
    btimsah Guest

    Re: Boston Herald-Possible Rams/Pats Superbowl Spygate?

    Quote Originally Posted by woody1351 View Post
    i always thoguht something was up with that game. we beat them pretty good in the reg season and then all of a sudden they could stop us on a dime. it would be nice to see a second banner hanging in the dome next year once they take that win away from the cheatriots. whats the chance that would happen?
    My Sooners had games stripped from their bad 2004 season or something. From what I understand, the teams we beat do not get a win, they still get a loss. But our wins were removed.

    Even though Oregon still get's a win after this bullsh...

    YouTube - The officiating that changed my philosophy on life.

  5. #80
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    Re: Boston Herald-Possible Rams/Pats Superbowl Spygate?

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMMAN68 View Post
    This does not surprise me; I painfully watched the replay the other night. In the end, none of this really matters ; there's no way the league will take action on anything that might have happened prior to the 2007 season. And we will not gat our much deserved second Lombardy Trophy. You have to remember that there is a new Commissioner, and I doubt he really wants to dig up anything from the past.

    Anyone want to bet the Pats coaching staff is reviewing tape of the Giants walk through from today?
    I think it matters a lot actually. Whether the league takes action or not isn't that important. It's also not about a title or a trophy that we won't get anyways. It's about exposing the Pats as frauds in the past and this dynasty goes down the drain. I want the truth, and if congress gets involved we may get the truth, it won't matter that Goodell doesn't want to dig it up, he will have no choice. So in that respect it does matter.
    Last edited by ramsbruce; -02-03-2008 at 04:38 AM.
    BRUUUUUUUUCE


  6. #81
    btimsah Guest

    Re: Boston Herald-Possible Rams/Pats Superbowl Spygate?

    He's trying to PROTECT THE NFL by destroying evidence of their cheating, as well as ignoring what more information does come out. The NFL's response to this newest allegation? The NFL says the Patriots have told them this allegation is false.

    That's all they need. Yeah, I'm sure the Jets game was the first time. First time they do it and they get caught! What are the odds!? It's like Kobe with that girl in Colorado. You think that was his first time? NO.

    Goodell needs to wake up. I hate college football now because of the BCS and referring. I don't want to add the NFL to that list. That would give me college basketball as the only good sport left. The NBA does the same thing with the Spurs.

  7. #82
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    Re: Boston Herald-Possible Rams/Pats Superbowl Spygate?

    I feel sick like this game just happened yesterday. How many times do the Cheatriots have to get busted before the NFL does something real to them? Merrill Hodge said on ESPN that if this is true the Patriots championship should be stripped from them. For those of you saying just let go, well thats what the NFL and Patriots want you to do just let go. If no one makes this a big deal then the Patriots can just do whatever they want whenever they want. Lets see here 9-11 happened Patriots win. They get away with murder on our wr's and rb's coming out of the backfield. They hold our wr's so much that a new rule comes out about touching wr's past 5 yds. They have videoed teams and been caught twice for it. Now they may have taped our walk through and I'm sure already had a tape from the game earlier that year. This does matter and I refuse to let it go because it is pathetic that a team has benefitted from all this cheating and now everyone thinks they are so great. Just like Warner said that game impacted peoples lives. Think about it, if Martz wins that game no way the Rams decline the way they did and now way he is looked at as a bad coach. Warners career spiraled after that as well. If this is proven to be true justice must be served. I know we wont get our Superbowl ring but how about the Pats get a real fine and lose their 1st round pick for 5 years. Not to mention they should lose the 8th pick this year. The Rams are and were the better team and they were not cheaters. The Rams organization may not be the best but at least they have INTEGRITY unlike the entire Pats organization. I can not and will not honor that team in 2001 and I will not consider their 2007 undefeated season a great accomplishment. They are CHEATERS bottom line and they deserve no respect!
    Just Fix It

  8. #83
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    Re: Boston Herald-Possible Rams/Pats Superbowl Spygate?

    It really is amazing how the league and the media refuses to see the Patcheatots for what they really are.

    One example which, though minor, is quite troubling is the fact that Tom Brady has been listed as "probable" with a "shoulder injury" every week since the start of the 2005 season. Injury reports are mandatory, and teams can get fined for failing to provide an accurate report.

    And yet... the league ignores, and the media chuckles, at this blatant disregard of a rule.

    Does this violation impact anything? No.

    But it does show the way the Belicheat thinks, and shows why a comprehensive investigation is needed.

  9. #84
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    Re: Boston Herald-Possible Rams/Pats Superbowl Spygate?

    What gets me even more steamed about this is the fact the "investigation" was most likely nothing more then the NFL asking a member of the Patriots front office if this was true. The fact that the NFL, in trying to defend the charges, said that The Patriots "told them it wasn't true" is absurd. What can you really add to that? Oh how I hope that Specter holds hearings about this scandal and brings up that quote to Goodell. If the rumors are true and Walsh has evidence I really hope he has a copy our walkthrough and Specter plays it for Goodell right after bringing up that quote.

  10. #85
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    Re: Boston Herald-Possible Rams/Pats Superbowl Spygate?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    It really is amazing how the league and the media refuses to see the Patcheatots for what they really are.

    One example which, though minor, is quite troubling is the fact that Tom Brady has been listed as "probable" with a "shoulder injury" every week since the start of the 2005 season. Injury reports are mandatory, and teams can get fined for failing to provide an accurate report.

    And yet... the league ignores, and the media chuckles, at this blatant disregard of a rule.

    Does this violation impact anything? No.

    But it does show the way the Belicheat thinks, and shows why a comprehensive investigation is needed.
    Yet another good example of how all the little things add up. This was Belichick's way of sticking his nose up at the NFL for enforcing stricter rules when it comes to reporting injuries. He'd rather not report injuries that can give the opponent that tidbit of knowledge and use it to their advantage, so now he puts about half of his squad on the injury list so you don't know which ones are for real.

    :l

    -jake-

  11. #86
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    Re: Boston Herald-Possible Rams/Pats Superbowl Spygate?

    Shadow over Patriots' integrity may reach into Rams' legacy
    By Bernie Miklasz
    ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
    Sunday, Feb. 03 2008

    GLENDALE, ARIZ. — Only the New York Giants can apprehend them now. But if the
    New England Patriots vanquish a 19th consecutive opponent to win the Super Bowl
    and complete their perfect season, they'll be handed the Vince Lombardi Trophy.

    The question is, will the trophy be dusted for fingerprints?

    Will the Patriots be accused (again) of stealing it?

    You just never know with these guys. The Patriots could be to the NFL what
    Barry Bonds is to Major League Baseball: a discredited champion. With Bonds, it
    was a tarnished home-run title because of his suspected use of
    performance-enhancing steroids. With the Patriots, it's a matter of
    performance-enhancing surveillance.

    Are you ready for "Spygate" the sequel?

    According to a report in the Boston Herald, citing an

    unnamed source, a member of the team's video department filmed the Rams' final
    walkthrough before Super Bowl 36 in New Orleans. The next day, the Patriots
    upset the Rams, 20-17.

    The Patriots issued an official denial Saturday, calling the allegation
    "absolutely false."

    We could believe that except the Patriots damaged their credibility earlier
    this season, in the original "Spygate," where the Patriots were caught using a
    video camera to steal the New York Jets' signals. NFL commissioner Roger
    Goodell fined coach Bill Belichick $500,000, fined the organization $250,000
    and ordered a first-round draft choice forfeited.

    Was that the only incident? The Patriots' previous three victims in close Super
    Bowls — the Rams, Carolina and Philadelphia — surely had to wonder if they were
    bamboozled by Belichick's dirty tricks.

    Matt Walsh, a Patriots video assistant from 1996 through 2003, dropped this
    hint to ESPN.com: "If I had a reason to want to go public, or tell a story, I
    could have done it before (Spygate) it even broke. I could have said everything
    rather than having (the Jets) bring it out."

    After a four-day "investigation" following Spygate, Goodell penalized the
    Patriots and declared the matter closed. He even ordered the confiscated
    videotapes destroyed.

    Goodell's rush to justice raised more questions than it answered.

    As Walsh told ESPN.com, "If they're doing a thorough investigation ... they
    didn't contact me, so draw your own conclusions."

    This is why Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., wants Goodell to explain before Congress
    the disposing of evidence. Goodell will likely go into full Roger the Dodger
    mode. After all, how devastating would it be to discover that the NFL's
    three-time (or four-time) Super Bowl champions slimed their way to those rings
    and trophies?

    As is, we know that Belichick and his defensive players flouted the on-field
    rules in Super Bowl 36 by holding Rams receivers with illegal downfield
    contact, because they correctly assumed the refs wouldn't call many penalties
    in the Super Bowl showcase.

    Hey, the Rams screwed up enough times in that game to put the Patriots in
    position to snatch the dramatic win. Coach Mike Martz didn't give Marshall
    Faulk enough carries against the nickel-dime defenses, offensive right tackle
    Rod Jones whiffed on a block that led to an interception returned for a
    touchdown, and Ricky Proehl lost a fumble late in the first half to set the
    Patriots up for a 14-3 lead.

    That said, if the Patriots did secretly tape the Rams' walkthrough, then their
    win should be contaminated by scandal.

    But it won't be. This is the NFL.

    In baseball, players merely suspected of cheating by using
    performance-enhancing drugs are swiftly condemned, their reputations ruined. In
    the NFL, cheaters roll on without much of a hitch. San Diego pass-rusher Shawne
    Merriman was suspended for four games in 2006 after flunking a steroids test;
    he was rewarded with a trip to the Pro Bowl. Patriots safety Rodney Harrison
    was nabbed in a human-growth-hormone ring this season and received a four-game
    suspension. There was little howling from outraged columnists, pundits, fans or
    congressmen.

    But think about this: If the Patriots cheated the Rams, the act carried beyond
    the outcome of a game. If the Rams had won that Super Bowl, it's two in three
    seasons. And two Super Bowl victories instead of one strengthens Pro Football
    Hall of Fame credentials of Faulk, Kurt Warner, Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt and
    Orlando Pace.

    The Super Bowl loss also marked the starting point of Martz's deteriorating
    relationship with Rams executives Jay Zygmunt and John Shaw. That upset had a
    direct impact on Martz's fragile state of mind, and his future in St. Louis.

    If the Rams were cheated in Super Bowl 36, they lost more than a game. They
    were cheated out of their legacy, and lost their place in history.

  12. #87
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    Re: Boston Herald-Possible Rams/Pats Superbowl Spygate?

    How Long Have The New England Patriots Been Taping Signals? Here's The Evidence!

    Saturday, February 2, 2008

    Michael Vinciguerra

    The following article comes from Mike Fish, an investigative reporter from ESPN, and helps confirm my beliefs about the New England Patriots' history of recording signals from other teams. The incident with the New York Jets earlier this season certainly wasn't the first. Rather, that incident just opened up the can of worms. I have a list of questions I'd love to ask Bill Belichick, though I doubt I'd get a meaningful response:

    Why is there always a receiver open?
    Why do the Patriots always come back in the 4th quarter?
    Does anyone find it odd how they blew out teams in the first half of the year, but kept things close in the second half?
    How come Randy Moss was so terrible on the Oakland Raiders, but dominated his position as a receiver on the Patriots?
    Not only does Randy Moss dominate, but how does he just blow by defenders like they aren't even playing?
    How come the Patriots get almost all the calls by the refs in their favor? (most notably the Ravens game)
    Is it possible for a team to honestly be this good, or is there more to it than meets the eye?

    We all know the New England Patriots cheated. The most important question, however, that must be asked now is how long they were cheating? In an effort to save and support the New England Patriots in having a perfect season, the NFL and Roger Goodell burned the evidence.

    Does anyone see a similar scenario here? This is the same situation as the steroid scandal in baseball. Both the MLB and NFL knew about the "cheating" going on within their sports, but didn't do anything to stop it because these players and teams were racking in cash and ratings for their sports. However, now that the government has stepped in and started investigating, the NFL and MLB has to come clean and make it appear as if they had no idea steroids were in baseball or the NFL was in support of a perfect Patriots team. All these players in baseball were crushing home runs thanks to some extra help (steroids). All I'm suggesting is the Patriots have become as dominant as they are thanks to some extra help too. Anyway, here's the article which may land the Patriots and the NFL in serious trouble:

    Matt Walsh worked seven years with the New England Patriots before being let go on Martin Luther King Day in 2003. He was on the New Orleans Superdome sidelines when the Pats kicked off their dominant run, upsetting the St. Louis Rams in the 2002 Super Bowl. He wasn't a chiseled athlete, but a go-getter who climbed his way up the team's support staff ladder -- first as a public relations intern, then as a video assistant and later, in his last year, a college scout.

    Mostly, though, his years with New England were spent shooting football video. He was the third, and last, employee on the video staff. In his words, he was Matt Estrella before Matt Estrella, a reference to the Patriots video assistant caught filming the Jets' defensive signals by league officials last September at halftime of a game against New York -- the violation that birthed "Spygate" and led, in part, to some of the heftiest penalties in league history. New England coach Bill Belichick was fined $500,000 -- the biggest fine ever for a coach  and the team was docked its first-round draft choice this year.

    And now, Walsh, 31, an assistant golf pro on Maui, might be positioned to further pull back the curtain on the Patriots' taping history, expose where and how they gained advantages and, perhaps even, turn over video proof. If Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., the top Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, is serious about calling a hearing to delve into the issue -- particularly the questions of why the NFL hastily destroyed all evidence, including tapes handed over by the Patriots, and what other as-yet-undisclosed material might be out there -- perhaps one of his first calls should be to Walsh, who in conversations with ESPN.com suggested he has information that could be damaging to both the league and the Patriots. In a New York Times story on Friday and again at a news conference later in the day, Specter expressed frustration with a lack of response from the NFL to his Nov. 15 letter inquiring about the league's investigation. He said NFL commissioner Roger Goodell would eventually be called before the committee to address, among other things, the destruction of the tapes. NFL officials and Patriots employees possibly could be brought before the committee to testify. Walsh told ESPN.com that, in the wake of the cheating scandal that broke early in the season, he has never been contacted by NFL officials to inquire about his insight into the Patriots' illegal taping practices, which he says date back to his time with the franchise. Nor, he said, has there been any communication with the Patriots.

    "If they're doing a thorough investigation -- they didn't contact me," Walsh told ESPN.com. "So draw your own conclusions. Maybe they felt they didn't need to. Maybe the league feels they got satisfactory answers from everything the Patriots sent them." Goodell said at his annual address to the media at the Super Bowl on Friday that the tapes turned over by the Patriots date back only to 2006, well after Walsh had left the organization. Does Walsh know anything that might be of interest to that inquiry? He won't say, but he hasn't dodged the suggestion that he does. On a number of occasions in interviews with ESPN and ESPN.com in recent weeks, he has hinted about evidence and information he might be able to provide.

    "No, the league has never called me," he said. "Neither have the Patriots. And really, I would be surprised if they did. Then all of a sudden -- I don't know how much the league or Patriots know about my stance or how I feel about things -- for them to put in a call to me, what are they going to say? Are they going to try and threaten me? Or say, don't talk about it? Then, they are putting themselves out there and looking bad as far as if I turn around and say, 'Hey, guess what, the league called me and said [we're] gonna take away your pension if you say anything about this.'"
    Later, Walsh said his reference to a pension meant his 401k retirement plan. Walsh suggested he could have blown the whistle long ago, if he'd been so inclined. "If I had a reason to want to go public or tell a story, I could have done it before this even broke," he said. "I could have said everything rather than having [Eric] Mangini be the one to bring it out." It is widely assumed that Mangini, the Jets head coach and former Patriots assistant under Belichick, was responsible for exposing the Patriots' spying tactics earlier this season.

    Several members of New England's staff came to the Jets with Mangini when he took the head job in New York, including assistant coaches Brian Daboll and Jay Mandoleso and video director Steve Scarnecchia, a former Patriot video assistant. The Jets' staff, under orders from team management, refused comment for this story. "Obviously, Mangini knew what was going on and it had been going on for a while," Walsh said. "They tried to catch them doing it last year and weren't able to. So they were just waiting for them to throw the camera up this year on the sideline. But afterwards, I get the impression the league said to them, 'Hey, kind of back down from this; let us take care of it,' because Mangini probably could have come out and said more, made more of a deal out of it if he wanted to."

    Walsh said that when he worked with the Patriots, a very limited number of people within the organization were privy to details about the team's video practices, notably video director Jimmy Dee and Ernie Adams, Belichick's prep school friend and right-hand man. Walsh said that during his tenure in New England, no taping was done without Dee's knowledge. As for the prospect of Adams sharing insight into the suspicious practices, Walsh said: "You've got a better chance of him telling you who killed JFK than anything about New England. There are lots of stories there. He told me stories of things they used to do in Cleveland [where Adams assisted Belichick with the Browns]."

    Asked Friday at his Super Bowl news conference about the New York Times story that indicated Specter's interest and identified Walsh as a person who might have inside knowledge about the Patriots' operations, Belichick said, "It's a league matter. I don't know anything about it." Despite suggestions that he could be a player in expanding the Spygate probe, Walsh repeatedly has refused to provide ESPN.com with any evidence of wrongdoing by the Patriots. He also has refused to confirm that he has tapes in his possession. Walsh said he is fearful of possible legal action against him by either the league or Patriots if he details what he knows. He refused to provide evidence of potential wrongdoing unless ESPN agreed to pay his legal fees related to his involvement in the story, as well as an indemnification agreement that would cover any damages found against him in court. ESPN denied his requests.

    On Friday, Walsh told ESPN he is uncertain whether he would voluntarily meet with a Senate committee, if asked. Previously, however, he expressed a willingness to tell league officials what he knows if they should call. "I wouldn't lie to them about anything, and especially because I don't know what they have," Walsh said. "I don't know what evidence they have. So there is no reason for me to lie to anybody, anyways. It is one thing for me to say, 'Hey, look, just not gonna talk about it.' It is not like a felony or crime or something where I got to go on a stand in court and swear on a Bible or something. It is the kind of thing where for me, personally, it could potentially do more harm to talk about it than not talk about it. "But if the league contacted me and said, 'Did you do this? Did you do that? …' Maybe they have evidence I did, so I am not going to say, 'No, I didn't.'" Like others trying to break into the NFL, Walsh came to the Patriots fresh out of college with little experience and a world of ambition. He graduated from Springfield College, class of 1998, with a degree in sports management. He didn't play college football; and though he claims to have spent parts of two seasons on the golf team, the college's sports information office has no record of him in its files. He began his time with the NFL by working on the Patriots' game-day press box staff during his college years. Those connections led Walsh to an internship in the franchise's public relations department during the first semester of his senior year at Springfield. In an effort to get ahead with the team, Walsh told ESPN.com, he offered to help out in the scouting department, which was then headed by Bobby Grier, after his day shift in PR ended. Walsh found himself without a full-time job after graduation. He was working as a lifeguard on Cape Cod when the Patriots called just days before the start of camp and offered him a job as a video assistant, even though he had no expertise or training in that area. In the winter of 2002-03, Walsh said he was fired by Patriots vice president for player personnel Scott Pioli, and then spent a year on the video staff of the Cologne Centurions in now-defunct NFL Europe. Walsh says he was frustrated with the monotony of the scouting job in New England -- he focused on the few football-playing colleges in western New York -- and that may have been a factor in his dismissal. He suggested it likely got back to the Patriots that he had made overtures about video jobs with other teams. He eventually landed a series of assistant golf pro jobs at private clubs in New England and Arizona.

    He can be found these days on the staff at the Ka'anapali Golf Resort in Lahaina, Hawaii, a 36-hole layout that caters to tourists visiting the high-end hotels and resort condos that line the long stretch of beach overlooking the Pacific Ocean. As he spoke with ESPN.com on a recent morning, he strode around the course confidently, talking up guests between an occasional golf lesson.
    Walsh described himself as a guy who makes friends easily, and who is adroit at working deals. When he worked video for the Patriots, he said, he often finagled a round of golf at top course in exchange for game tickets. After he left the Patriots, he hooked up with a high school friend who worked security for his favorite group, the Red Hot Chili Peppers, and followed the band on tour over 27 stops, sharing drink and food backstage with band members by night, and playing golf by day. His air of confidence, though, came and went as he chatted about whether he wants to involve himself in Spygate.

    He has a young wife who is a physical therapist, and an 8-month-old son. He has family back in New England who, he said, could be in harm's way if he damages the Patriots with any information he might disclose. Even in Hawaii, he remains a New England season-ticket holder. And he said he worries about how he might be perceived by future employers if he blows the whistle on the Patriots. And he wondered aloud what might be in it for him if he does. He said he fears the potential wrath of the Patriots, and their ability to tie him in up in court for an extended period of time. Although he stopped short of saying he has actual video evidence, he suggested he does; and so raised the possibility that it might be viewed as stolen property. He mentioned a confidentiality agreement he signed with the club, though he's not sure how that might factor into what he has to say. "So whether that still covers me talking about things that we did when I was there or not, I'm not completely sure," Walsh said. "But if it doesn't -- if the worst they do is get pissed off that I am coming out talking to national media about all these things that I know that they have done and what not, and they just decide to pull my season tickets -- well, OK. At the end of the day, what did I get out of it? I lost my season tickets." At one point, when the discussion turned to potential evidence, he said, "I'd use it if they came after me. The last thing I need is for people to make a case against me." During an afternoon tour of the golf course where he works, Walsh stopped and pointed out Black Rock, a cliff where a nightly ritual features a lone figure lifting a torch to salute the sky before plunging into the dark waters, home to the occasional small shark. He used that scene as an analogy to the risk he'd face coming forward with his story. "That guy is taking a chance jumping into shark-infested waters," Walsh said, motioning toward the cliff. "There'd be nothing to come out of it for me. Be a helluva risk." He said he does not feel an ethical urge to do what some might perceive as the right thing, to help set the record straight -- either by exposing the Patriots or by depicting them as simply doing what every other team does. "I'll be honest with you: I can't really be guilted into anything," he said. "Maybe after this whole thing, you don't think I have a conscience because of the people I was exposed to and what they had me doing. "Really, I just [have] no incentive to really talk to anybody, no reason to do it. For me, personally, I haven't really been able to see the gain in doing it." But now the Senate Judiciary Committee knows about him. And perhaps the incentive will come in the form of a subpoena from Specter's committee.

  13. #88
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    Re: Boston Herald-Possible Rams/Pats Superbowl Spygate?

    Did Pats also spy on Rams?
    By Jim Thomas
    ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
    Sunday, Feb. 03 2008

    GLENDALE, ARIZ. — New England coach Bill Belichick cemented his reputation as a
    defensive genius when his Patriots stunned Mike Martz and the Rams 20-17 in
    Super Bowl XXXVI.

    According to the Boston Herald, Belichick might have had some help against the
    Rams. Some illegal help. Citing an unnamed source, the Herald reported Saturday
    that a Patriots employee taped the Rams' final walkthrough on the day before
    Super Bowl XXXVI in New Orleans.

    "I think Mike always suspected something, but I had no knowledge of this," Rams
    President John Shaw said Saturday in Phoenix, where he is attending the Super
    Bowl XLII game between the Patriots and the New York Giants.

    Shaw declined further comment, but said he would bring up the topic with NFL
    Commissioner Roger Goodell next week. Shaw and Goodell are scheduled to meet
    next week in Los Angeles, a meeting set up before the latest allegations of
    cheating by the Patriots surfaced.

    The Patriots' victory over the Rams is considered one of the biggest upsets in
    NFL history, and Martz was bombarded with criticism following the defeat. At
    the time, the Rams had what was considered one of the most potent offenses in
    league history — an aggressive, high-powered, multifaceted attack dubbed the
    "Greatest Show on Turf."

    Martz was house hunting in San Francisco, where he was recently hired as
    offensive coordinator, when reached Saturday by the Post-Dispatch.

    "I've been aware of this (the taping allegations) for some time," Martz said.
    "But I'm going to hold off on commenting further until all of this comes out."

    The source told the Herald that after completing their walkthrough prior to
    Super Bowl XXXVI six years ago, the Patriots posed for a team picture in the
    Louisiana Superdome. And then the Rams took the field for their walkthrough.
    According to the source, a member of the Patriots' video staff stayed behind
    after attending the New England walkthrough and illegally filmed the Rams'
    walkthrough.

    At no point was the cameraman asked to identify himself or produce a press
    pass, the source told the Herald. Except for a pool reporter, Super Bowl
    walkthroughs are closed to the media.

    During walkthroughs, players literally "walk through" plays that the team is
    planning to run in the game the next day. A Rams source told the Post-Dispatch
    that the Rams emphasized short-yardage, goal-line, and red zone plays that were
    in the game plan during the walkthrough that day in New Orleans.

    According to the Rams' source, one of the plays in that day's walkthrough was a
    play early in the fourth quarter when quarterback Kurt Warner fumbled on a
    fourth and goal from the New England 3. The Patriots recovered the fumble and
    raced 97 yards for an apparent touchdown. But the play was negated because of a
    defensive holding call against New England. The Rams subsequently scored to cut
    New England's lead to 17-10 with less than 10 minutes to play.

    A second source said, "We hadn't run that play all year. Our players were upset
    after the game because on certain plays, especially in the red zone, (the
    Patriots) were calling the plays and the formation that we were going to run."

    The second source told the Post-Dispatch on Saturday that he was told shortly
    after the game that some members of the Patriots' staff "were up all night"
    studying the walkthrough tapes. This second source said the team never went
    public with complaints about the walkthrough taping because it would seem like
    sour grapes in the wake of a devastating loss.

    "Had we won the game, I might have said something," the second source said.
    "You really don't want to believe it anyway. The integrity of the game should
    be far more important than reducing yourself to cheating to win."

    Belichick was fined $500,000, and the New England franchise fined an additional
    $250,000 earlier this season for illegally taping New York Jets coaching
    signals on the sideline during the Patriots 2007 season opener against the
    Jets. The Patriots also had to forfeit their first-round draft pick in the
    upcoming draft. The controversy was dubbed "Spygate."

    Belichick dodged all questions on "Spygate" during Super Bowl week. During his
    annual Super Bowl address Friday, Goodell was asked if any of the confiscated
    tapes in the "Spygate" controversy benefited the Patriots in any of their three
    Super Bowl victories.

    "No, there was no indication that it benefited them in any of the Super Bowl
    victories," Goodell said.

    But now, there's a whole new layer of allegations. After his press conference,
    Goodell said he was unaware of any taping of the Rams' Super Bowl XXXVI
    walkthrough.

    But NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said Saturday, "We were aware of the rumor months
    ago and looked into it. There was no evidence of it on the tapes or in the
    notes produced by the Patriots, and the Patriots told us it was not true."

    Patriots spokesman Stacey James reiterated that, "The suggestion that the New
    England Patriots recorded the St. Louis Rams' walkthrough on the day before
    Super Bowl XXXVI in 2002 is absolutely false. Any suggestion to the contrary is
    untrue."

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    Re: Boston Herald-Possible Rams/Pats Superbowl Spygate?

    WARNER WANTS ANSWERS

    by Mike Fish; ESPN

    Looking back, quarterback Kurt Warner says Super Bowl XXXVI in New Orleans is a blur. The underdog New England Patriots simply outschemed Warner's St. Louis Rams, parading out six and at times seven defensive backs and roughing up the Rams' sleek receivers to slow down an offense then dubbed "The Greatest Show on Turf." St. Louis, Warner says, just got beat. The final score read 20-17. That result can't be changed.

    But for peace of mind, the two-time MVP wants the league to investigate reports that the Patriots might have benefited from a videotape of the Rams' final practice before that Super Bowl six years ago.

    In the latest flurry of news surrounding the Patriots' videotaping activities, a report in Saturday's Boston Herald indicated that a member of the Patriots' video staff might have filmed the Rams' final walk-through in the Superdome the day before the game. The story cited a lone source, described as someone close to the New England team that season.

    Rumors of the Super Bowl videotaping incident first circulated shortly after the "Spygate" affair this past September, in which a Patriots employee was caught taping the New York Jets' signals from the sideline, although ESPN.com has been unable to confirm the rumors. Matt Walsh, a former Patriots video assistant who has suggested he has information potentially embarrassing to the team and the league, has refused comment on whether he played a part in the alleged Super Bowl taping in February 2002.

    "Really, it is nothing that I care to go on the record about or talk about," Walsh recently told ESPN.com.

    Warner, who since has moved on to the Arizona Cardinals, was surprised to learn the league didn't speak to Walsh during its investigation of Spygate.

    "It is obvious that it wasn't as thorough as it could have been," Warner says of the league's probe. "I don't have any information on why they didn't talk to him or how far back they went, but just knowing that there was somebody that was involved in that , and he wasn't talked to or they didn't go back that far -- I guess it is disappointing. You would think that if they do an investigation for the integrity of the game, that they would try to do everything possible. And maybe they did, and they just missed it. But as a purist and someone who wants to see the integrity of the game stay where it is, it is a little disappointing that they didn't under every rock to figure this out and to do something to make sure it doesn't happen again."

    Warner spoke to ESPN.com about the rumors of Super Bowl spying before the Herald's story appeared. He did not return calls Saturday. Neither did former Rams coach Mike Martz.

    According to the Rams' itinerary from Super Bowl XXXVI, the team took the Superdome turf at 12:45 p.m. Saturday, Feb. 2, 2002, for its final practice, which came after the Patriots had completed their walk-through. The Rams were scheduled to take a team picture at 1:30, eat a box lunch at the stadium at 2 and catch buses back to the team hotel at 2:15.

    Warner says he remembers little from the walk-through, other than that the offense ran some of its red zone plays.

    Even if that practice had been taped and was available to the Patriots, the advantage might not have been significant, as the Rams weren't in position to use their red zone offense until the fourth quarter.

    St. Louis had seven plays inside the Patriots' 30-yard line in the final quarter. At one point, New England stopped the Rams on four successive plays inside the 3-yard line. A holding penalty gave the Rams another play, and, after a timeout, they scored on a quarterback sneak by Warner -- a play that had not been part of Saturday's walk-through but was called by Martz on the sideline.

    Former Patriots video assistant Matt Walsh has refused to address the question of his possible role in alleged surreptitious taping.
    "It was really just us having some troubles putting the ball in the end zone," Warner says. "We stuck this play in because we had success with it before."

    Warner says his suspicions about the Patriots surfaced only after they were busted for cheating this past September.

    "Again, they had a great game plan," Warner says of the Patriots' performance in Super Bowl XXXVI. "Coach Belichick has been known for that. They executed it very well. And I think you look back from our side and say, 'Well, we had played them once year. They had a good feel for what we were doing and how to stop us. I go back and look at that game and say, 'The approach they took with us is that we're going to beat them up and beat them up and beat them up until the officials make a call.' And I think they went in with a premise that in a Super Bowl, the officials don't want to dictate the course of action. So they're going to be slow to throw flags, especially a bunch of flags.

    "At the same time, I think everybody wonders to what extent did they ? Was this something that was just done on game day, or was it something they did throughout the week? they go to practice facilities? And I think that is the question. And I think that is the unfortunate question, because New England has done a tremendous job. They have been very good for a long time.

    "But anytime you have something like this go on, and you get caught doing that, it raises questions. And I think rightfully so. I mean, to what degree did this go on? To what degree did this help them? For how long did it help them? Those are natural questions that you ask when somebody gets caught doing something like this. It does go through your mind. And then, at the same time, as a player, you say, 'OK, even if they had our signals, how much would it help?'"

    Warner suggests New England would tape opponents' defensive signals from the sidelines, as it was caught doing against the Jets this season, to decode the communications and file them away for a future game against the same team. If the coaches know the defensive signals, he says, they can filter information to the quarterback through the headset in his helmet, which shuts off with 15 seconds left on the play clock.

    "If teams kept their signals the same, then you could get a bead on them and be able to have that information," Warner says. "It would be a distinct advantage."

    Drew Bledsoe, the backup to Patriots quarterback Tom Brady in that Super Bowl, told ESPN.com he does not know if the Patriots stole signals or taped the walk-through for that title game.

    "No, I don't recall anything that would be suspicious for that game," Bledsoe says. "If that happened during that game, I didn't know about it."

    Drew Bledsoe, Tom Brady's backup in Super Bowl XXXVI, says he isn't aware of any foul play.
    Bledsoe also says a coach -- typically the offensive coordinator -- communicating with the quarterback doesn't have time to offer much more than the play call.

    "If there is something that they saw that they can give me, give the quarterback, in two words, they'll do it," Bledsoe says.

    As for the possibility of determining in advance the defense the quarterback is about to see at the line of scrimmage, Bledsoe says, "Generally, no. Now, if that is what the Patriots were able to accomplish, if they were able to tell Tom what defense is coming, obviously that would be a huge advantage. But whether they were able to do that, I don't know."

    Bledsoe suggests that the scandal has been overplayed and that stealing signals always will be part of the game. As a freshman at Washington State, he received an award from his coaches after he stole offensive calls from the sideline in a win over California; he had been able to figure out when Cal was going to run, pass or screen pass.

    "Listen, that kind of stuff has been going on for as long as there have been video cameras," Bledsoe says of the accusations against the Patriots. "I know people are trying to make this out like this is some huge scandal, but it is at every level. You talk about college, you talk about high school -- people are taping stuff, and that is what they do. And they try and gain an advantage that way. And that is what the Patriots were doing."

    As for where teams cross the line of fair play, he says, "It is a pretty fuzzy line. Like in other realms in the world, in the business world, when you get into a highly competitive environment, people are going to try and do what they can get away with. That is not unique to football."

    Another former Patriots quarterback, who spoke to ESPN.com on condition of anonymity, says that New England pushes the envelope further than most teams and that the Patriots were doing so long before they were caught in September.

    Warner says he has no insight into the Patriots' methods, although he has heard from quarterbacks who gained an advantage because their teams stole signals.

    "I've actually talked to people this year that said they played on teams that had the other team's signals," Warner says. "So as the quarterback, you go up to the line of scrimmage, and they're telling you in your helmet what coverage you are going to see, what play to check to. And those are obviously distinct advantages -- when you know what a team is going to do before you run a play and you have an idea as the quarterback where they are going to go, where you should go with the football. Now, bottom line: You still have to execute. You still have to react. You still have to block, throw and catch it. But it is a huge advantage."

    The question is, did the Patriots enjoy that kind of advantage in Super Bowl XXXVI? Did they pick things up during the Rams' walk-through, during the practices in New Orleans leading up to the game or in a game St. Louis played in Foxborough earlier in the 2001 season?

    As Warner paints the picture, that Super Bowl wasn't like any other loss. It derailed a franchise and damaged careers and reputations.

    "Let's just say, for instance, that what they did had an effect on the second Super Bowl that I played in," Warner says. "And then to see the course of my career from that point forward -- there was some dramatic changes. Had I won two Super Bowls, some of the things may not have happened through the course of my career. Now, obviously, I put my faith and trust in a much higher source than any cheating that is going on, and believe that God has a distinct purpose in what goes on. But I'm just one example of how our situation in St. Louis deteriorated after the loss of that Super Bowl.

    "After we lost the Super Bowl, the organization went into a little bit of a downward spiral, as you see with a lot of teams that lose the Super Bowl. You see how career situations were altered after losing that game. You look at Mike Martz. If he is a Super Bowl winner, that is a whole different thing. Or just maybe guys, that was their only chance to be in a Super Bowl. And to go away losing it instead of winning it, that is a huge deal.

    "So if did something that affected that game, I would hope that all the parties involved would do everything they could to make sure that it doesn't happen again. And to make sure that something that somebody earned wasn't taken away from them in any way, shape or form by somebody not doing or abiding by the league rules."

    Mike Fish is an investigative reporter for ESPN.com.

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    Re: Boston Herald-Possible Rams/Pats Superbowl Spygate?

    Quote Originally Posted by ramsbruce View Post
    (besides the horrible officiating in the Baltimore game that the Pats should have lost).
    Glad someone else noticed that game. That's one of the Pats games I watched this year and the officiating was blatant - Baltimore had them beat but the refs handed them the game on the last drive. Perfect season - blah. If we can't get better refs in the league then for once I'd like to see just one game where the Pats are robbed of the victory, they always go their way with all the questionable calls.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramsbruce View Post
    As for previous years I would have to think that little or none of it is legit. We know the refs handed them our title. We know the Pats held, hit helmet to helmet, mugged and did anything else to get an unfair advantage. Now we hear that they possibly (of course they did) taped us before the SB, and most likely every other team they played.

    Even though we won't get a title for 01/02 I really want to see this whole spygate saga exposed and the Pats proven as cheaters. Will it happen, who knows but I'm hoping.
    I agree. What's done is done, we won't get a title for the 01/02 season, you can't change that now as much as they cheated - at best they could officially remove the Patriots as winners of that season and say there was no winner that year. That's what the Tour de France has done I believe with riders that were later proven to have used doping while winning.

    NFL Champion 01/02 - N/A

    But first the league should launch a proper investigation, interview all the people and get all the facts out there.

    What can be done now is to uncover the truth, the fans deserve that. But I'm still certain the league will cover this up and remain mute - what's the benefit to them to getting the truth out? They're in it for the money, not fairness or anything else, the league probably doesn't care if all the games were fixed like wrestling or something - as long as people buy the merchandise and watch the games. They'll bury this story as fast as they can.


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