Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 53
  1. #16
    LaRamsFanLongTime's Avatar
    LaRamsFanLongTime is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Foothill Ranch CA
    Age
    37
    Posts
    808
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: The bottom line on Fisher

    Fisher did really well in this game.
    No he did not end of story. Just because he did not get beat on a score does not mean he did really well. I recall him getting beat on quite a few big 3rd down plays.

    You cannot say Fisher is the reason for the loss but you also could not say he played well. I will repeat myself one more time then I will have to just give up on the issue. The Rams secondary at the present time is playing like crap if anyone could find a valid argument against that let me know.

    LET'S GO DODGERS

  2. #17
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Morgantown, WV
    Age
    31
    Posts
    19,474
    Rep Power
    154

    Re: The bottom line on Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by LaRamsFanLongTime View Post
    I recall him getting beat on quite a few big 3rd down plays.
    The only times Fisher was thrown to successfully to my recollection after having watched the game this afternoon was late in the second quarter on consecutive first down plays.

    One was a deep out where Fisher simply got turned around and was a bad job on his part. The other was a broken play where Rivers had all day to throw after escaping the pocket, and the third was a quick slant to Gates where Fisher was right on him and brought him down by himself.

    There was a corner that allowed a reception on a big third down play, but his name is Fakhir Brown and that happened in the fourth quarter on a 22 yard pass from Rivers to Parker.

    If I'm missing one of the plays Fisher was defending against though, please let me know. But I do not recall seeing him successfully thrown at on any big third downs.
    ClanRam ModCast: Episode Four
    Rams Discussion Right at Your Fingertips!



  3. #18
    tanus is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    535
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: The bottom line on Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGameMN View Post
    I'm sorry but asking Will Witherspoon to cover LT is a recipe for disaster. Now sometimes the offense sets it up in such a way that a defense has no choice, at that point you simply have to hope he falls down or the QB doesn't see him.
    Is this a joke? Did you even see the plays? WW took horrible angles. LT did nothing special except run straight down the field.

  4. #19
    chiguy's Avatar
    chiguy is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Illinois
    Age
    42
    Posts
    1,158
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: The bottom line on Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    The only times Fisher was thrown to successfully to my recollection after having watched the game this afternoon was late in the second quarter on consecutive first down plays.

    One was a deep out where Fisher simply got turned around and was a bad job on his part. The other was a broken play where Rivers had all day to throw after escaping the pocket, and the third was a quick slant to Gates where Fisher was right on him and brought him down by himself.

    There was a corner that allowed a reception on a big third down play, but his name is Fakhir Brown and that happened in the fourth quarter on a 22 yard pass from Rivers to Parker.

    If I'm missing one of the plays Fisher was defending against though, please let me know. But I do not recall seeing him successfully thrown at on any big third downs.

    You're under the mistaken assumption that the facts are going to help in this situation, Nick.

    A few things that continue to boggle me about the Fisher detractors:

    1. Why are you so willing to cut the pass rush slack? If you give good QBs time to throw -- like Hasselback, Rivers -- there isn't a CB in the league who can cover good receivers long enough to prevent 7-10 yard pass plays. Fisher is average, yes, but he's kind of working without a net too.

    2. How often when Fisher gets "beat" is it in zone coverage? He seems to do a lot better when in man-to-man than when in zone. And that begs the question -- how much should we blame the safety instead? I think Atogwe has been atrocious in coverage, but no one is calling for his head. (It reminds me of how ardently you folks defended Hargrove in the offseason. We saw how that turned out.)

    3. For all his faults, why does no one talk about the fact that Fisher is decent in run support? Given how porous our run defense is, this is more important than it usually would be.

  5. #20
    HUbison's Avatar
    HUbison is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Kentucky
    Age
    40
    Posts
    13,585
    Rep Power
    145

    Re: The bottom line on Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by tanus
    I am still befuddled as to why Fisher is ALWAYS the first person to get blamed for everything.
    I'm lovin' this thread, even better than the other one, if you ask me. I've shared this theory with Nick and GC, but my thought on Fisher is this.....what he does well (deep coverage, keeping the play in front of him) doesn't bring accolades. When he stays with a vertical receiver forcing the QB to throw an uncatchable pass, the tendency is to blame the QB instead of praising the CB. However, what Fisher does poorly (breaking up short sub-10-yard routes) is under the spot lights. An 8-yard reception for a first down IN FRONT of Fisher will get more replays and airtime than a pass sailing out of bounds 50 yards down the field BECAUSE of Fisher.

    I've bashed on Fisher (unfairly admittedly) over the past couple of years....done so out of frustration more than objectivity. In fact, quantitatively speaking, my only problem with Fisher is his lack of TO creation. His Int/Tackle ratio is horrible, but that's a different story.

    As to why people bash Fisher harder than others......it's all about potential. We won't pick on Hill, Atogwe, Brown, Haslett, or the pass rush (Wroten, Glover, Victor) because they are all new to the team. There is a certain level of expectation that some believe these individuals will attain. That hope makes it difficult to find fault, as doing so would be equal to admitting defeat of our expectations. Fisher, on the other hand, has been here 5 years, so for fans who held high expectations for Fisher already feel defeated in those expecations. Therefore, it's easier to lump all fault on to Fisher (a well-defined "bust" already, in those minds anyway) if that will defray fault from those where expecations are still high.

    In the end, as Chiguy, tanus and others have pointed out, Fisher is an average player performing on an average level. It's not his play that is out of line, it's our own expectations of his play. In a few years, the same could be true of Hill, Atogwe and others.

    I'm not sayin' it's fair, just reality.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  6. #21
    RamOfDenmark is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Denmark
    Age
    30
    Posts
    1,071
    Rep Power
    22

    Re: The bottom line on Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    Good point. When LT is averaging 7.3 yards/carry they don't have to bother testing our corners. Not one of the Chargers' scores was the result of Fisher's miscues. There was no single weak link in that game; there were tons of them. Spoon made some good tackles in run support but struggled in coverage. Little got some pressure on Rivers but got man-handled in the running game. On most of the big runs, I couldn't see where Coakley had gone off to. Just about all of our defensive backs missed tackles in run defense that could have prevented big gains and/or TDs. We need more from pretty much every defender on the field.
    Can only agree with this post, it was a letdown from the entire defense. I don't think anyone here is blaming Fisher solely for the loss of this game (that would be insane, it was the running game that killed us), I haven't heard anyone say Fisher is THE weak link every week. But he is A weak link every week, and he never makes any big plays.

    And yes I do think a big play can make up for a mistake. I'm not saying you shouldn't try to improve on any and all mistakes, obviously you should fix whatever you can, anything less would be stupidity. But come on guys, some corners (or LB's or other players) play a risky style, high-risk high-reward, where you take chances, sometimes you look like an idiot and sometimes you come up with a game-winning big play. That was the sort of philosophy Lovie played in St. Louis, bend-don't-break and a lot of turnovers, if you say (as some of you do, and that would be directed at tanus and to a lesser degree Nick) that no amount of big plays ever makes up for a mistake you discredit that whole philosophy of football. Maybe it's not your cup of tea, maybe you prefer a solid defense emphasising consistency, that's ok, reasonable people can differ on this. But you can't discredit that philosophy entirely, it has been shown a lot of times to work. And that's why I'm generally not as concerned when Will Witherspoon makes a mistake, I know that he's a player and that he will very often (though not against San Diego) come up with a big play to make up for it. Whereas when Fisher makes a mistake (or 3 mistakes in a row) and gives up yardage, that hits harder because you know he's not going to turn it around with a huge play. If Fisher started making big plays on a consistent basis and still made the same mistakes that he does now, I for one, would start directing my criticism elsewhere, I would still hope that he could fix those mistakes, but if he couldn't or wouldn't I would assume that he was trying to go for the big play again and when you do that, and succeed at it on a consistent basis, I will forgive more mistakes on that player's part. If he played solid consistent football, few big plays, just tight coverage and effective tackles, that would be ok too, however I would be less willing to accept mistakes then. The thing is I think Fisher does neither, he tries to play the solid/consistent style, but he just isn't good enough, he makes too many mistakes. He gives up too many 10-15-20 yard plays, while not huge plays, it's still frequent enough and damaging enough for me to say that he's not a good corner and that we should try someone else. If he's the best corner we have after Brown so be it, little we can do about it this year, but I don't believe that is the case so I want to see someone else get a shot. I could be wrong and he is in fact the 2nd best corner on the team, it's harder for me to say than the coaches since I only watch the games, not all the practices, so you could make the case that the coaches are probably doing the best thing. But based on the information that I have based on watching Butler and Fisher, this year and previous years, I think we're making a mistake.

    RamOfDenmark
    President of the "Bring back Butler-movement"
    Vice-president of the "Let's try Hill/Bartell/anyone instead-party"
    :x

  7. #22
    LaRamsFanLongTime's Avatar
    LaRamsFanLongTime is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Foothill Ranch CA
    Age
    37
    Posts
    808
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: The bottom line on Fisher

    One was a deep out where Fisher simply got turned around and was a bad job on his part. The other was a broken play where Rivers had all day to throw after escaping the pocket, and the third was a quick slant to Gates where Fisher was right on him and brought him down by himself.
    The sequence I remeber was the one that ended with the slant. Im pretty sure that is where on 3 plays in a row they threw at him and had 3 completions in a row.The stadium loud speaker called his name on coverage on 3 consecutive completions that is never a good sign. That means the other team sees something and they are going to exploit it.Again though Im not here to bash Fisher im not really impressed with him or Brown though at the time being. I would have to say of the two Brown was more responsible for the big plays on Sunday. My argument was that there is no way you could say Fisher played good. You cannot put the loss on him either though that is for sure.
    LET'S GO DODGERS

  8. #23
    laram0's Avatar
    laram0 is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Age
    57
    Posts
    9,218
    Rep Power
    108

    Re: The bottom line on Fisher

    WOW! I thought we beat this into the ground last week? It's a great topic with no difinitive answer. It's like trying talk a hungry dog off the meat wagon.
    Everyone has their own opinion...mine is if Champ Bailey's not available we'll just have to deal with it. Fisher is the starter for a reason, one that only the coaches know. We have to trust this new coaching staff. Last season at this time we were 3-4 now we're 4-3 so they're doing something right.:r

  9. #24
    rampete is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Southern Cal
    Posts
    654
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: The bottom line on Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    ... It's not his play that is out of line, it's our own expectations of his play. In a few years, the same could be true of Hill, Atogwe and others.

    I'm not sayin' it's fair, just reality.
    this is a very fair assessment...fisher's soft coverages underneath, lack of ints, tye hills availability and butler's unexplained absence from taking the field may be contributing to the hyper-sensitve reactions we are observing (which i admit, i have been suseptible to).

  10. #25
    LaRamsFanLongTime's Avatar
    LaRamsFanLongTime is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Foothill Ranch CA
    Age
    37
    Posts
    808
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: The bottom line on Fisher

    Why is Fahkir off the hook could anyone answer that????
    LET'S GO DODGERS

  11. #26
    Fat Pang's Avatar
    Fat Pang is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    1,603
    Rep Power
    64

    Re: The bottom line on Fisher

    Because his last name isn't Fisher???

  12. #27
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Morgantown, WV
    Age
    31
    Posts
    19,474
    Rep Power
    154
    Seriously. Fakhir Brown is the defender on a reception larger than any single reception Fisher allows, a key third down completion no less, and completely whiffs on a tackle that could have prevented a big 51-yard gain, both plays helping to lead to scoring drives for the Chargers, but the post-game reaction is how big of a liability Travis Fisher is.

    I'm not saying Brown is bad. I feel he's the best corner we've got. But the double standard is ridiculous. Either criticize players equally for their mistakes or don't single people out at all. To criticize Fisher for his mistakes while completely ignoring those of others which in some cases are in fact more costly is entirely unfair.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamOfDenmark View Post
    if you say (as some of you do, and that would be directed at tanus and to a lesser degree Nick) that no amount of big plays ever makes up for a mistake you discredit that whole philosophy of football.
    The argument is that good or big plays don't completely wipe away the existence of a bad play. Like it or not, the player made a bad play and that needs to be recognized, not excused because of other good things he did.

    You can't just sweep those bad plays under the rug and ignore them simply because a player also made a couple of nice plays. If a guy makes a good play, give him credit for it. If a guy makes a bad play, acknowledge that too.

    If anything goes against the very nature of football, it would be ignoring bad plays simply because a guy made some good ones as well. If you want to improve as a team, you have to recognize and attempt to fix ALL mistakes, not just the ones made by players who aren't also making some good plays as well.

    Let's say a guy goes out there and has 10 tackles, a sack, and an INT. That's a friggin great game. But let's say he also whiffs on a tackle and allows a 35-yard touchdown run. The overall picture is still a good day for him, but you can't just erase that mistake because of the good stuff he did. The mistake is there, and it needs to be addressed, regardless of how good a guy is or has been playing.

    And therein lies the problem. Brown allows a catch longer than anything Fisher allowed and whiffs on a tackle that allows a huge run. Both lead to scores totaling 10 points. Fan response? Complete silence. Will Witherspoon is the defender in coverage on three significant passing plays, all of which lead to scores totaling 21 points. Fan response? Complete silence. Travis Fisher is the defender in coverage on three consecutive plays totaling 38 yards on a drive that ends in a punt. Fan response? OMG TRAVIS FISHER IS SO HORRIBLE AND IS A LIABILITY TO THIS TEAM LET'S BENCH HIM RIGHT NOW HE SUCKS!!

    So, do you see a problem here?
    Last edited by Nick; -11-01-2006 at 02:25 AM.
    ClanRam ModCast: Episode Four
    Rams Discussion Right at Your Fingertips!



  13. #28
    LaRamsFanLongTime's Avatar
    LaRamsFanLongTime is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Foothill Ranch CA
    Age
    37
    Posts
    808
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: The bottom line on Fisher

    So, do you see a problem here?
    Yeah our pass coverage sucks and the QB has all day to throw. Was the Denver game truly the same defense we are seeing now??I did not expect the Rams to win this game. I also did not expect them to look so awful on the defensive side of the ball.
    LET'S GO DODGERS

  14. #29
    rampete is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Southern Cal
    Posts
    654
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: The bottom line on Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    ...Brown allows a catch longer than anything Fisher allowed and whiffs on a tackle that allows a huge run. Both lead to scores totaling 10 points. Fan response? Complete silence. Will Witherspoon is the defender in coverage on three significant passing plays, all of which lead to scores totaling 21 points. Fan response? Complete silence. Travis Fisher is the defender in coverage on three consecutive plays totaling 38 yards on a drive that ends in a punt. Fan response? OMG TRAVIS FISHER IS SO HORRIBLE AND IS A LIABILITY TO THIS TEAM LET'S BENCH HIM RIGHT NOW HE SUCKS!!

    So, do you see a problem here?
    yeah, you're way over-reacting, like the rest of us...

  15. #30
    Liberi's Avatar
    Liberi is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    3
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: The bottom line on Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by rampete View Post
    just perhaps, the reason why fans are taking a pass on ripping witherspoon on the last game is that he makes up for his lack of coverage skills with running side line to side line hard on every play and his tackling prowess...and clearly, LT is the new marshall, a guy few LBs can match...
    Lack of coverage skills? When we brought him in and during training camp it seemed like his coverage skills were one of his best assets.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •