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Thread: Bradford, Brees and Aikman first 2 FULL seasons

  1. #16
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    Re: Bradford, Brees and Aikman first 2 FULL seasons

    I put the post not to say that he'll be great like them,but to show that we might be making a mistake if we get rid of him. I think all that happened this year with Rams will make him better. Aikman got destroyed by his OL and media and i think Bradford will be better than good. He does not need to be great,just help us win a lombardi.
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  2. #17
    Harry S. Truman Guest

    Re: Bradford, Brees and Aikman first 2 FULL seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by emuen View Post
    What I said was that they drafted Eli Manning because Brees played bad. Which is true? That has nothing to do with his entire Charger career. That is kind of the point with this thread. Brees started out poorly but became a great QB.
    He really DIDN'T start out poorly however.

    A couple of things to note about Brees.

    A) He was a John Butler (RIP) pick. While Butler absolutely LOVED Brees and felt he was capable of being a franchise level QB (a view Marty Schottenheimer shared), AJ Smith felt opposite. Thus, the attempt to draft Manning and the follow up acquisition of Rivers as part of that proverbial trade.

    B) In SPITE of having Rivers, it was universally believed the Chargers were going to offer Brees a long term contract extension and shop Rivers in the off-season before he blew out his shoulder.

    Here's the million dollar problem in a nutshell. Fans by nature have the patience of a 5 year old. They want immediate results, expect miracles and circumstances be damned if those expectations aren't met. The fact that there's a contingency of people who actually want to ship Bradford out is borderline laughable, considering he's done about as much with little in terms of WR help (his best WR so far has been Brandon Lloyd for God's sake...) and a patch work offensive line. Had he not had Jackson at his disposal, he'd be playing with the worst offense in the NFL, and it's arguable even WITH Jackson, they're a bottom 5-7 one now.

    Andrew Luck isn't going to have any more success with this team than Bradford has. He's going to go through the same growing pains that EVERY young QB goes through.

    Let's assume the GM (whomever it may be come draft day) bucks to fan sentiment and drafts Luck and trades Bradford for far below what his true worth is (with his contract, they're not getting the return people think). What happens in 2-3 years when Luck is going through the same problems and same growing pains? Are the fans going to pine for the team to ship Luck out and draft someone else, keeping this cycle going?

    Patience is a virtue. Unfortunately, it's a virtue far too many sports fans sorely lack.

  3. #18
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    Re: Bradford, Brees and Aikman first 2 FULL seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by emuen View Post
    It's true that he could be a good QB, a great QB like those other two even. It's just strange that some people on here don't think he needs to prove it?
    Where do you get the idea some people don't think he needs to prove it? From what I've read, people want to see him get a chance to build on the potential he showed in his Offensive Rookie of the Year season, as opposed to the knee-jerk reaction of cutting him loose as a bust.
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    Re: Bradford, Brees and Aikman first 2 FULL seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry S. Truman View Post
    He really DIDN'T start out poorly however.

    A couple of things to note about Brees.

    A) He was a John Butler (RIP) pick. While Butler absolutely LOVED Brees and felt he was capable of being a franchise level QB (a view Marty Schottenheimer shared), AJ Smith felt opposite. Thus, the attempt to draft Manning and the follow up acquisition of Rivers as part of that proverbial trade.

    B) In SPITE of having Rivers, it was universally believed the Chargers were going to offer Brees a long term contract extension and shop Rivers in the off-season before he blew out his shoulder.

    Here's the million dollar problem in a nutshell. Fans by nature have the patience of a 5 year old. They want immediate results, expect miracles and circumstances be damned if those expectations aren't met. The fact that there's a contingency of people who actually want to ship Bradford out is borderline laughable, considering he's done about as much with little in terms of WR help (his best WR so far has been Brandon Lloyd for God's sake...) and a patch work offensive line. Had he not had Jackson at his disposal, he'd be playing with the worst offense in the NFL, and it's arguable even WITH Jackson, they're a bottom 5-7 one now.

    Andrew Luck isn't going to have any more success with this team than Bradford has. He's going to go through the same growing pains that EVERY young QB goes through.

    Let's assume the GM (whomever it may be come draft day) bucks to fan sentiment and drafts Luck and trades Bradford for far below what his true worth is (with his contract, they're not getting the return people think). What happens in 2-3 years when Luck is going through the same problems and same growing pains? Are the fans going to pine for the team to ship Luck out and draft someone else, keeping this cycle going?

    Patience is a virtue. Unfortunately, it's a virtue far too many sports fans sorely lack.
    Cam newton better hope he does not have a bad sophmore season...lol

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    Re: Bradford, Brees and Aikman first 2 FULL seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by RamDez View Post
    that should keep some quite for a bit LOL
    We are paying Sam Bradford way to much money for the results we are receiving. Trade the BUM!

  6. #21
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    Re: Bradford, Brees and Aikman first 2 FULL seasons

    I think the big issue here is the other teams were building around the QB and this teams awful around the QB if that doesn't change he will not beat the stats the other two put up in later years.

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    Re: Bradford, Brees and Aikman first 2 FULL seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry S. Truman
    A) He was a John Butler (RIP) pick. While Butler absolutely LOVED Brees and felt he was capable of being a franchise level QB (a view Marty Schottenheimer shared), AJ Smith felt opposite. Thus, the attempt to draft Manning and the follow up acquisition of Rivers as part of that proverbial trade.
    Exactly right, Mr. President! And this is one of the reasons (Larry English vs. Clay Matthews being another) that I'm not sold on AJ Smith as the new GM.
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    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Bradford, Brees and Aikman first 2 FULL seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by emuen View Post
    Good thing the Lions was more patient with Joey Harrington then.
    Chargers saw a draft pick not delivering and acted on it. They wanted to win you see.Turned out they could have stuck with him, but the odds didn't suggest that.

    And even tough Bree beat the odds and went All pro the Chargers still ended up with a pro bowler of their own (3 actually). So calling it a mistake might be pushing it
    1. Surely we can agree that anything signed by Matt Millen was a bad idea.

    2. What odds exactly?

    3. They spent a 1st round pick (Rivers, well technically Manning) on a QB when they didn't have to. A little patience might have helped them in the long run.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  9. #24
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    Re: Bradford, Brees and Aikman first 2 FULL seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by fliptalianstallion View Post
    Wonder how many sacks did those two QBs took their first two seasons? Hope it's similar to Bradfords because it's a scary thought seeing him walk the path to David Carr.
    I seem to remember Aikman getting killed early in his career. 90 times in his first 38 games.

  10. #25
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    Re: Bradford, Brees and Aikman first 2 FULL seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    Where do you get the idea some people don't think he needs to prove it? From what I've read, people want to see him get a chance to build on the potential he showed in his Offensive Rookie of the Year season, as opposed to the knee-jerk reaction of cutting him loose as a bust.
    I get the idear from reading around the forum. When one reads things like "When Bradford get back he will hit those deep throws" (after Feeleys first game) or "See what a ankel injury does to a QB" ignoring that he really didn't preform good before the injury either.
    I have never stated that I want to cut him or trade him. Because I don't. My post are more for directed to people not wanting to see that he is really playing bad football.

    The statistic pointed out in the OP is really a great story of how (apperently only) two players have gone from to bad first seasons to being great QBs. The most telling about that stat is that the list is short. Some people want to give him a chance (myself included). Thats not the people I'm refering to. It's people stating that far reached statistic of thing the happened once or twich in NFL history should keep people disagreeing with them shut up? People claming he can consistent hit a deep ball eventough he have never in his NFL career consitently hit a deep ball? People pointing out that ankel injuries hurt a QBs preformans. Yeah I could see that! He played even worse then when he wasn't hurt. However its the part where he wasnt hurt some people was complaining about?
    2. What odds exactly?
    The odds of him turning it around and start preforming. For the two players mentioned - that had two bad seasons and the became great - I can name you 20 who played bad and turned out being not good. Thats a 1/10 odds. Well before Brees there was apperently only really one? So you can understand if the Chargers FO was impatient.


    He really DIDN'T start out poorly however.
    Okay, so we have a different understanding of a poor start. Fact is however that he played well/poor enough to be benched behind journeyman QB Doug Flutie. [

    QUOTE]Here's the million dollar problem in a nutshell. Fans by nature have the patience of a 5 year old. They want immediate results, expect miracles and circumstances be damned if those expectations aren't met.
    [/QUOTE]

    It's true that some expect miracles - that's how it is. Some others expect at least a TD/game avg from their first overall pick. And some don't! I like Bradford - from what I read about him. And with the way it's said he works he should be able to improve, also as talent improves around him. However the reason I wrote in this post to begin with is that some people really don't seem to expect that much from him right now. As a stat about how two QB greats had turned it around in the last 22 years was a way to make all those mentally 5 year olds understand that they shouldn't complain (thats not pointed at rob6465, some one else made the "shut them up" statement) But just be happy he managed all of 12pt in avg with those crappy players around him.

    his best WR so far has been Brandon Lloyd for God's sake...
    We can agree that we don't have a great WR corps, but why are you picking on one of our only offensive bright spots? His shifty, makes cursus catches, demands double coverage. Other teams have went for years with way worse then him

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    Re: Bradford, Brees and Aikman first 2 FULL seasons

    Bradford is a 14mil cap hit if he is traded or waived, so there's really nothing to think about at this point, even if Bradford had played terrible the first two years of his career. No way in hell the Rams draft a QB in the 1st round. The hard cap in the NFL is reality.

  12. #27
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    Re: Bradford, Brees and Aikman first 2 FULL seasons

    The odds of him turning it around and start preforming. For the two players mentioned - that had two bad seasons and the became great - I can name you 20 who played bad and turned out being not good. Thats a 1/10 odds. Well before Brees there was apperently only really one? So you can understand if the Chargers FO was impatient.
    Hmm; interesting premise. Okay, let's take a look at it.

    Steve Young, Donovan McNabb, Rich Gannon, Roger Staubach, Matt Hasselbeck, Ken Anderson, Bernie Kosar, Eli Manning, Troy Aikman, Randall Cunningham, Warren Moon, Bart Starr, Fran Tarkenton, Dan Fouts, John Elway

    Those 15 individuals are just the more prominent names that fit the category of having roughly the same passer rating as Sam Bradford after two years as a starter. They all went on to have careers at or above a passer rating of 80, which puts them in the top 60 of all time. As I said, I selected just the more prominent names; figured I would spare you the Jeff George's, Jason Campbell's, Neil Lomax's and Jeff Hostetler's of the group.

    And no, I don't expect you to come up with 150 names of QB's who were near Bradford after two starting seasons and then went on to be poop. I'm sure there are plenty. The bigger point here is that front offices have to be more patient than fans. It's easy for us to throw the baby out with the bathwater; we have nothing invested, and it's not our job if we're wrong. But when GMs give up on a young QB, they better be sure.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  13. #28
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    Re: Bradford, Brees and Aikman first 2 FULL seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by emuen View Post
    I get the idear from reading around the forum. When one reads things like "When Bradford get back he will hit those deep throws" (after Feeleys first game) or "See what a ankel injury does to a QB" ignoring that he really didn't preform good before the injury either.
    I have never stated that I want to cut him or trade him. Because I don't. My post are more for directed to people not wanting to see that he is really playing bad football.
    I think you'll find that along with the things you mentioned, most people qualified their statements on Bradford with acknowledgements that he needed to play better.

    Quote Originally Posted by emuen View Post
    The statistic pointed out in the OP is really a great story of how (apperently only) two players have gone from to bad first seasons to being great QBs. The most telling about that stat is that the list is short. Some people want to give him a chance (myself included). Thats not the people I'm refering to. It's people stating that far reached statistic of thing the happened once or twich in NFL history should keep people disagreeing with them shut up? People claming he can consistent hit a deep ball eventough he have never in his NFL career consitently hit a deep ball? People pointing out that ankel injuries hurt a QBs preformans. Yeah I could see that! He played even worse then when he wasn't hurt. However its the part where he wasnt hurt some people was complaining about?
    As HUb noted, there are many more examples of NFL QB's who struggled a few years before breaking out. I would add Brett Favre, who had numbers almost identical to Bradford's in his first two years of starting, and Terry Bradshaw, who was abysmal his first four years before putting things together. If you need the numbers for these guys to match what the OP presented, I can provide them.

    As for Bradford's play when he wasn't hurt, his rookie season was a good indicator of what he can do when given half a chance.

  14. #29
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    Re: Bradford, Brees and Aikman first 2 FULL seasons

    I see the point this thread is trying to get at, but I really don't know what to make of it. Having comparable numbers to Brees and Aikman doesn't guarantee Bradford is going to become a great one, just like having comparable numbers to Carr or Leinart doesn't guarantee Bradford is going to bust out. I agree that it's way too soon to move on from Sam, but I don't think comparing him to other quarterbacks is the best way to make that argument. There are just as many if not more quarterbacks who started poorly and stayed poor as those who started poorly but rebounded, so the point could be made either way by either side. Ultimately, it will be up to Sam and the Rams to maximize his ability to succeed. Only they - not other players and their historical numbers - will have an actual impact on Sam's career.
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    Re: Bradford, Brees and Aikman first 2 FULL seasons

    Bottom line is we don't know what the future holds for Sam (or Luck for that matter). But I can tell you one thing I've learned and it's this: As the offensive line goes, so does the quarterback. Mark Rypien anyone? Sacked 7 times in 1991. The only way he gets into the Hall is with a visitors pass. Yet behind the hogs he took the team to a Super Bowl. Trade who you want, draft who you want, but if you don't protect him you're pissin' into the wind.
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