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  1. #16
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by RedArcher7 View Post
    I didn't think there was any doubt that the Rams overpaid for Brown.
    He's by far the best lineman available this offseason, easily a top 5, even top 3 center, and probably a top 5 guard in the league.
    So if the question is did the Rams overpay? The answer is yes.
    Sorry, but those statements cannot be reconciled.

    If he is the best OL on the market, and one of the best at his position in the league, and the market says he's worth $______, then that's what he's worth. How does that make paying that amount "overpaying."

    To me, overpaying means you could have had the same commodity for less money. I've yet to hear anyone make an argument that there is a comparable player who would have cost less.


  2. #17
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Sorry, but those statements cannot be reconciled.

    If he is the best OL on the market, and one of the best at his position in the league, and the market says he's worth $______, then that's what he's worth. How does that make paying that amount "overpaying."

    To me, overpaying means you could have had the same commodity for less money. I've yet to hear anyone make an argument that there is a comparable player who would have cost less.

    I think the average fan's definition of "overpaid" is what the individual thinks the player should be paid, compared to what actually happens. What they don't take into account, however is EVERYTHING ELSE; market price, salary cap, supply/demand, etc.

    The bottom line is, we got a top 5 free agent overall, the best at his position, to come to the Rams to play football. And that honestly right now, wouldn't be a very enticing situation if you ask me. Each year the price of free agents is going up, understandably because the salary cap is going up. It just makes sense. One shouldn't compare what Brown is currently making, compared to other players at the position who signed their contracts a year or more ago. They signed their contracts under a different context. A smaller salary cap. If you want to take a look at Brown's production a couple of years from now, then it would be fair to say the Rams overpaid for him, but not now.

  3. #18
    AlphaRam is offline Registered User
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Until he performs on the field for us, he is overpaid. Remember our great signing from last free agency? Jacob Bell is highly overpaid for what he contributes...just ask Marc Bulger....when his head clears...
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  4. #19
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaRam View Post
    Until he performs on the field for us, he is overpaid. Remember our great signing from last free agency? Jacob Bell is highly overpaid for what he contributes...just ask Marc Bulger....when his head clears...

    But Jacob Bell has played a full season for us so far. Right now it's fair to evaluate price to performance. Brown has yet to see the field. How can someone be overpaid if they haven't even had a chance to prove themselves? Isn't the whole idea of being overpaid mean that one is getting compensated too much for their production?

  5. #20
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    Athletes are like buying a car, some run smooth and are cheap.....some are expensive and in the shop all the time....some perform up to the money spent.

    Smooth and cheap? Chris Draft
    Expensive and in the shop? Drew Bennett
    Perform up to the money spent? Will Witherspoon
    So what ur saying is that Bennett is a ford in the 90s, Chris is a used Dodge, and Will is a brand new Chevy...I agree with this statement

  6. #21
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by invisiblehorns314 View Post
    So what ur saying is that Bennett is a ford in the 90s, Chris is a used Dodge, and Will is a brand new Chevy...I agree with this statement
    I would classify Will as more of a luxury sedan ...

  7. #22
    shower beers's Avatar
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Well, the Dolphins just paid 30 million over 5 years for Jack Grove to compete for the starting job at center. I don't know about you guys, but I would much rather pay the extra 7(?) million for a proven top tier talent, than 30 million for a guy I haven't even heard of, competing for a job.

  8. #23
    AlphaRam is offline Registered User
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by shower beers View Post
    But Jacob Bell has played a full season for us so far. Right now it's fair to evaluate price to performance. Brown has yet to see the field. How can someone be overpaid if they haven't even had a chance to prove themselves? Isn't the whole idea of being overpaid mean that one is getting compensated too much for their production?
    Exactly - he hasn't produced yet so he is overpaid. Can you blame me for being a cynic these days?
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  9. #24
    Azul e Oro is online now Registered User
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    I think there are three other aspects not mentioned so far regarding Brown's value.

    The reality of the modern NFL has rookie O-line players having to start immediately rather than learning the pro game & easing into a team so Brown's starting experience adds to his value in a way that the potential/talent alone of a draftee can't.

    Romberg has the experience & I think actually played ok but has questionable durability.Keep your fingers crossed that Brown doesn't get hit by the Ram O-line injury curse that affected Bell's first year so much.I still hope we keep Romberg,though.

    Secondly, the intangibles of the guy seem impressive. Romberg may be almost as good a center but Brown , in his intro interview, sounds like a leader. At least he's smart enough to know what to say. We'll see if it translates. It's a unit that has lacked leadership and cohesion for a while so that is additional value, albeit unproven in a Rams uniform.

    Anyone who says they're ready to run through a brick wall to help get The Rams turned around is ok by me.

    Lastly, I don't think the value of an interior lineman can be judged by sacks allowed & penalties alone. I watched The Ravens games vs The Titans & Steelers. Brown stymied Haynesworth & Hampton, among others, all day long in pass pro & plowed the way for some seriously hard-earned yards.

    It was ugly in the trenches & Brown more than belonged. He doesn't have the quick feet/lateral movement of a lighter center so you see him pop through the DTs & LBs sometimes when they use speed to get around him/shed his blocks & make the play behind but it's the price you pay for the extra beef,I guess.Probably why he's a better center than guard,too.

    Things got a little chippy as well, esp vs the Titans, but he seemed very disciplined & mature. The guy goes at you every down but keeps his head.

    All in all, I'd rather have drafted Mack but I doubt he would be there in Rd2. A later draft pick like Luigs or Wood(s?) would have been cheaper but I doubt we'll regret the move in the long run.Waaaay better choice than Birk would have been,imo.
    Last edited by Azul e Oro; -03-03-2009 at 11:05 PM.

  10. #25
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    The only way to determine if what you paid for a player was a bargain or a bust is to watch him perform. If Brown continues to play at the level he has previously (I believe he will), then you did fine. If he out performs previous years, you got a bargain. If he spends his gamedays on the bench, he's a bust.
    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!!

  11. #26
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by shower beers View Post
    Well, the Dolphins just paid 30 million over 5 years for Jack Grove to compete for the starting job at center. I don't know about you guys, but I would much rather pay the extra 7(?) million for a proven top tier talent, than 30 million for a guy I haven't even heard of, competing for a job.
    Well, it doesn't really work exactly like that. The most important thing here is the structure, which means the guaranteed money and the amount of the guaranteed money that is in the form of a signing bonus that is prorated over the life of the contract for cap purposes. You could sign somebody to a billion dollar deal that has no guarantees and pays very little in the first couple years and the total size of the contract is meaningless. They will never see, nor will the team ever pay, the money.

    In this case Grove's 5 year deal was for $29.5 mil with $14 mil in guaranteed money. Don't know how much of this comes in the front end or if it's backloaded.

    Brown signed for 5 years for $37.5 mil with $20 mil in guaranteed money. He will receive $24 million of this in the first two years. So it's a front loaded deal.

    That's a significant amount as far as actual dollars that are likely to be paid throughout the deals. The Dolphins obviously felt the better deal was to pay what they did for Groves rather than what the Rams did for Brown because the Dolphins were interested in Brown but obviously were not interested in paying him as much as the Rams did or guaranteeing him as much as the Rams did. The Dolphins were looking for a C so they could move Satele to G.

    I think some here are also overestimating Brown's "proven top tier talent level". He has not been a Pro Bowl player and that would seem to me to be the top tier. What he was, was the concensus best free agent C available, but that does not by default make him a top tier C.

    And this gets to the falacy in the original post that stated.....
    if there is a commodity with a supply of one, and there are multiple buyers who are willing to pay a sum for that commodity, then the one that actually ends up paying that sum did not “overpay.” Rather, the market simply set the price.
    There quite obviously was not a supply of "one". That is, there was not only one C available. There were multiple C's available at different costs. And as with any business, the trick is identifying and implementing the right choice. That is the choice that results in the best return, but the choice that results in the best return is not always or necessarily the most expensive solution.

    Will Brown turn out to be the most cost effective choice? Or, will Grove or some other C, perhaps even a draft pick? We won't know that until we get a chance to see the returns, but until then there is certainly room to be skeptical and to believe that the Rams have in fact overpaid for a commodity that they could have gotten much cheaper that would have delivered the same or better results. Especially when you consider that those who were of the opinion last year at the time that they overpaid for Bell so far have been proven absolutely correct.

  12. #27
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by HornIt View Post
    And this gets to the falacy in the original post that stated.....

    There quite obviously was not a supply of "one". That is, there was not only one C available. There were multiple C's available at different costs.
    To quote Andy Dufresne, "how can you be so obtuse. Is it deliberate?"

    I never said there was only one center on the market. But there was only one center with credentials like Brown's (size, experience, age. injury history).

    Especially when you consider that those who were of the opinion last year at the time that they overpaid for Bell so far have been proven absolutely correct.
    No, they haven't, unless everything is subject to hindsight. A front office's job is to evaluate needs, to consider available commodities, and to pay the necessary market rate to obtain them. That's what happened with Bell. He ended up having a bad year (some now say nagging injuries were to blame), but he will hopefully pan out in the long run.

  13. #28
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    To quote Andy Dufresne, "how can you be so obtuse. Is it deliberate?"

    I never said there was only one center on the market. But there was only one center with credentials like Brown's (size, experience, age. injury history).



    No, they haven't, unless everything is subject to hindsight. A front office's job is to evaluate needs, to consider available commodities, and to pay the necessary market rate to obtain them. That's what happened with Bell. He ended up having a bad year (some now say nagging injuries were to blame), but he will hopefully pan out in the long run.

    To quote you....wait a minute........ I can't do that since you never said it the way you now say you did.

    Never the less, even if you had, it would still be a lousy argument and my points would still blow it out of the water just the same.

    Of course there is only one person with Jason Brown's finger prints. However, there clearly were other like "commodities" on the market that the Rams and other teams had to choose from and that put downward pressure on the price of Brown. There were other viable options and the Dolphins in fact chose one of them. The Rams did not. This wasn't a case of a captive buyer. Anybody who doesn't understand that doesn't understand how the system works.

    You do understand that when you say a front office's job is to "evaluate needs, to consider available commodities, and to pay the necessary market rate to obtain them" that you have included important variables such as "evaluate" and "consider" and paying what is "necessary" don't you? Quite obviously those front offices that do the best jobs and get the highest return on their investments are the ones who make accurate evaluations and are effective with monetary considerations and avoid paying unnecessarily high prices to get inferior returns don't you??? And accurately figuring ROI requires results and results require time.

    What happened with Bell is that some more accurately evaluated his value than others. I think it's safe to say we can include the Titans themselves in the group that did a good job of evaluating his actual value and you in the group that didn't do so well based on your sensitivity to it and how you lash out with personal attacks at those who point it out. Some correctly identified him as overpriced at the time and the Rams as having overpaid. The results have proven them right...so far and I'd say will into the future as well. He's no better than an average player that the Rams paid a premium price for. They could have paid less and gotten the same or better results, but of course couldn't have gotten the same fingerprints.
    Last edited by HornIt; -03-05-2009 at 12:39 AM.

  14. #29
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    We get no respect, but we would get a lot less if we spent the 150mil like the skins did.

  15. #30
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by HornIt View Post
    To quote you....wait a minute........ I can't do that since you never said it the way you now say you did.

    Never the less, even if you had, it would still be a lousy argument and my points would still blow it out of the water just the same.
    You had points?

    Of course there is only one person with Jason Brown's finger prints. However, there clearly were other like "commodities" on the market that the Rams and other teams had to choose from and that put downward pressure on the price of Brown.
    Great. Who were they? Oh, you were just talking. Okay. So whoever these mystery people were... how much did they impact Brown's price? After all, he's now the highest paid center in the league (at least until next year's free agent market).

    There were other viable options and the Dolphins in fact chose one of them. The Rams did not.
    Miami signed a guy who is four years older, twenty pounds lighter, and has started only 14 games over the past two years. A "viable option"? I guess. A good option? Not so much. A better option? No.

    What happened with Bell is that some more accurately evaluated his value than others. I think it's safe to say we can include the Titans themselves in the group that did a good job of evaluating his actual value and you in the group that didn't do so well based on your sensitivity to it and how you lash out with personal attacks at those who point it out.
    Its interesting that you perceive disagreement as a personal attack. You must be living a very sheltered life if you can't handle a little disagreement. To your point... you presume (as you often do) that the Titans let Bell go because they somehow knew he was not worth the kind of money that he received from the Rams. That's not necessarily the case. You see, we have a little thing called the salary cap, which requires teams to have priorities. Because of this, one team may place a higher value on a player than another. That does not mean one is right and one is wrong (regardless of what happens after those decisions are made).

    He's no better than an average player that the Rams paid a premium price for. They could have paid less and gotten the same or better results.
    I guess then that Peyton Manning was a bad draft choice then. After all, the Colts could have waited and paid less for better results with Tom Brady.

    HornIt... and I say this merely to explain my future actions (or inactions) and not as a personal attack... you are simply not worth my time.

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