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  1. #31
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    I'm confused, Hornit. Do you think the Rams overpaid for Brown or not? You seem to be tapdancing around the issue instead of answering the question. Are you saying the Rams should have passed on Brown and signed a cheaper guy like Grove instead? If so, wow, I could not disagree with you more.

    And you thought Mike Martz was "mad"!

  2. #32
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post

    Its interesting that you perceive disagreement as a personal attack. You must be living a very sheltered life if you can't handle a little disagreement.
    I think it's quite obvious I have no problem with disagreement. That's what I've been doing with you here. I do think, however, it's interesting that you think calling somebody obtuse and further implying that they are deliberately so is not a personal attack. I suppose you believe that is actually a good argument, since it does qualify as the best one you've made in this discussion.

    As for Peyton Manning, I'd say the Colts have received a very nice return on that investment. As good or better than expected when they made that choice. When one gets results that are as good or better than expected when they paid for it, I don't see how you can mangle that somehow into a relative argument based on another team also getting better than expected results on one of their investments, but you somehow have.

    Well done.


    HornIt... and I say this merely to explain my future actions (or inactions) and not as a personal attack... you are simply not worth my time.
    Of course I'm not. Got any other exercises in the obvious up your sleeve there?

  3. #33
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilXenu View Post
    I'm confused, Hornit. Do you think the Rams overpaid for Brown or not? You seem to be tapdancing around the issue instead of answering the question. Are you saying the Rams should have passed on Brown and signed a cheaper guy like Grove instead? If so, wow, I could not disagree with you more.
    What I'm saying is, there is a valid argument to be made that they did overpay for him.

    I am disagreeing with the premise of the orginal poster that those who might make such an argument have no clue about economics. It is just the opposite actually.

    I did think they overpaid for Bell last year. I think they acted out of desperation. It was a mistake. I like the Brown acquisition much better but I am skeptical that he was worth that kind of money. The Ravens just signed an actual Pro Bowl C in Matt Birk, which Brown has never been, to what ESPN is reporting is a 4 year $12 million deal with only $6 million guaranteed. The Ravens obviously thought this was a better option than paying Brown, their own player, what the Rams did. The Rams could have chosen that option or something else as well. They made a decision to go with one of a number of possible alternatives. This was not a case of a demand of many and a supply of one.

    If I had the choice, I probably would have gone with Birk and that deal and drafted a C to groom behind him. Birk is a very good player and an excellent veteran leader and this O-line desperately could use that. This is a good draft for C's. The Rams could have gotten Birk and a top C in the draft for less money combined then they spent on Brown. Each choice obviously has it's positives and negatives. That's where the evaluation component becomes so critical. The story of who did the better job assessing value here will be told in time.

    That doesn't mean I don't like Brown. But I do think it's likely they did overpay considering the alternatives that were available. Time will tell. We don't need any time to tell, however, if a valid arguments based on what we know now, sound in economic principles, exist that the Rams overpaid for Brown. They do. Now it's up to the results to do the deciding.
    Last edited by HornIt; -03-05-2009 at 03:18 PM.

  4. #34
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by HornIt View Post
    What I'm saying is, there is a valid argument to be made that they did overpay for him.
    Okay, I'm with you so far... there's an argument... but what do YOU think?

    I am disagreeing with the premise of the orginal poster that those who might make such an argument have no clue about economics. It is just the opposite actually.
    Actually, I think that the original poster was right about the economic analysis, but still, what do you think about the Brown signing?

    I did think they overpaid for Bell last year. I think they acted out of desperation. It was a mistake.
    That's great, but I didn't ask you about Bell, I asked you about Brown.

    I like the Brown acquisition much better
    Ah... there's my answer!

    but I am skeptical that he was worth that kind of money.
    Oh!!!! You went the other way. Now I'm confused again! WHAT DO YOU THINK!?!!?!

    The Ravens just signed an actual Pro Bowl C in Matt Birk, which Brown has never been, to what ESPN is reporting is a 4 year $12 million deal with only $6 million guaranteed.
    Um... yeah, but Birk is much older than Brown. Not really apples to apples, is it?

    The Ravens obviously thought this was a better option than paying Brown, their own player, what the Rams did.
    Clearly, but the Ravens were a playoff team worried about paying other guys, while the Rams are building from the ground up. Another apples and oranges kind of thing.

    The Rams could have chosen that option or something else as well. They made a decision to go with one of a number of possible alternatives.
    Okay... but DO YOU AGREE with that decision?

    This was not a case of a demand of many and a supply of one.
    Man, you lost me again. Of course it was. One 25 year old center with Brown's qualities, many teams that wanted him.

    If I had the choice,
    Here we go... I'm finally going to get my answer!

    I probably would have gone with Birk and that deal and drafted a C to groom behind him.
    Probably? Come on Hornit... just answer the question!

    Birk is a very good player and an excellent veteran leader and this O-line desperately could use that. This is a good draft for C's. The Rams could have gotten Birk and a top C in the draft for less money combined then they spent on Brown.
    True, but you can only play one center at a time, so some of that money would be going to the bench (not to mention that the Rams would then not be able to use their second round pick to fill another need).

    Each choice obviously has it's positives and negatives.
    Back to the wishy-washy stuff.

    That's where the evaluation component becomes so critical. The story of who did the better job assessing value here will be told in time.
    Right. Hindsight is 20/20. We got that.

    That doesn't mean I don't like Brown. But I do think it's likely they did overpay considering the alternatives that were available. Time will tell.
    Covered about every angle there. You should write for the PD.

    We don't need any time to tell, however, if a valid arguments based on what we know now, sound in economic principles, exist that the Rams overpaid for Brown. They do.
    Except you have not explained how what those "sound economic principles" are, other than to say that Birk cost less, which really is not relevant.

    Now it's up to the results to do the deciding.
    Right. 20/20 hindsight. Got it.
    And you thought Mike Martz was "mad"!

  5. #35
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Wow.

    That was awesome Xenu.

    I am so repping you!

  6. #36
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Brown is worth the money particularly because he can play center and guard. My only concern was the 5 sacks he allowed when he played guard. he is a dominant center...as a guard we will have to see.

    I thinks for what he means to our rebuilding effort...we got a bargain.

    Also the "experts" are full of it, and are bandwagon "experts" who only like the teams on top..the so-called experts never saw Miami and Atlanta getting into the play-offs until they started winning.

  7. #37
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilXenu View Post
    Okay, I'm with you so far... there's an argument... but what do YOU think?
    Do you want to have a conversation where the whole of a statement complete with contingencies and context means something or a series of text messages where each sentence independent of the others becomes absolutely meaningless?

    I know the latter can be more entertaining for some, sort of like the Michael Moore approach to posting. Of course it makes no attempt to actually seek truth or understanding.

    The answer to your first question along with every one of your following ones is contained in the whole of my response that you spliced up to become your serial version.

    I'm confident you can figure it out if you actually try because I've received feedback from others who had no problem doing so.

    That's what I think.

    By the way, I hear Brown was the only C available who's second toe was shorter than his big toe, so you and AvengerRam must be right about that pesky supply thing. The Rams had no other C's to choose from. No other alternatives........ with short second toes that is. Darn! Foiled again.

  8. #38
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by HornIt View Post
    By the way, I hear Brown was the only C available who's second toe was shorter than his big toe, so you and AvengerRam must be right about that pesky supply thing. The Rams had no other C's to choose from. No other alternatives........ with short second toes that is. Darn! Foiled again.
    So what you are saying is that the only distinction you can see between Brown and Birk is something as trivial as toe size?

    Well, I'm glad you're not evaluating personnel for the Rams.

    Brown and Birk are not the same, not by a long shot. I have yet to see you or anyone argue that there was a comparable player to Brown on the market.

    Again, unless you are saying all centers are the same. If that's how economic transactions work, I guess I should go to a Land Rover dealership and try to buy a Range Rover for $30,000. When they laugh at me, I'll say, "but that's what a Toyota 4Runner costs, and after all, they're both SUVs!" That should work great.
    And you thought Mike Martz was "mad"!

  9. #39
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilXenu View Post
    So what you are saying is that the only distinction you can see between Brown and Birk is something as trivial as toe size?

    Well, I'm glad you're not evaluating personnel for the Rams.

    Brown and Birk are not the same, not by a long shot. I have yet to see you or anyone argue that there was a comparable player to Brown on the market.

    Again, unless you are saying all centers are the same. If that's how economic transactions work, I guess I should go to a Land Rover dealership and try to buy a Range Rover for $30,000. When they laugh at me, I'll say, "but that's what a Toyota 4Runner costs, and after all, they're both SUVs!" That should work great.

    whooooosh...

  10. #40
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilXenu View Post
    So what you are saying is that the only distinction you can see between Brown and Birk is something as trivial as toe size?

    Well, I'm glad you're not evaluating personnel for the Rams.

    Brown and Birk are not the same, not by a long shot. I have yet to see you or anyone argue that there was a comparable player to Brown on the market.

    Again, unless you are saying all centers are the same. If that's how economic transactions work, I guess I should go to a Land Rover dealership and try to buy a Range Rover for $30,000. When they laugh at me, I'll say, "but that's what a Toyota 4Runner costs, and after all, they're both SUVs!" That should work great.
    No two players are "the same". Neither are any two apples.

    When you go to the Land Rover dealership, they'll laugh at you for believing your only choice or the only "supply" of Land Rovers you can choose from is a brand new, zero miles, 2009 Supercharged Range Rover with custom wheels and paint job bought at the most swanky dealership in town.

    Well, actually they'll love you for that. We'll laugh at you though.

    And you're right, they aren't "comparable" players. Birk is a 6 time Pro Bowler. Brown gets the big goose egg. We could play that "comparison" game all day.

    What do we compare next? Skin color?

    Or do we actually look at the supply of CENTERS on the market and evaluate the most cost effective alternative given those choices? Just like you could look at the supply of Range Rovers that are on the market, both new and used, young and old, larger or smaller models, private seller or dealer and evaluate the most cost effective choice for your situation?

    I'm glad you're not buying my cars.

  11. #41
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Wow.

    That was awesome Xenu.

    I am so repping you!
    Conversely, I got drive-by negative rep by for my comment by Must_Login_To_Lurk....and I didn't even personally attack anyone.

    If you are going to tag me with negative rep, at least make it for a good reason....I wanna feel like I earned it.

    Of course, the little pansy ass hasn't even posted here on the forums. I guess his mom came down to the basement and caught him on the internet so we won't hear much out of him. Perhaps this is his way to signal to me that he wants to date me. Sorry, my boat doesn't rock that way.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  12. #42
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    If Brown turned down $6 million and could likely have gotten $7 million elsewhere, it sounds like we paid fair market value on him. This situation reminds me a bit of when Steve Hutchinson hit free agency, and many felt that he received a contract that was more in line with what an offensive tackle gets rather than a guard. However, in the following years, lesser players at the same position were getting paid even more, which was just a reflection of a change in the perceived value of the position.

    Regarding Brown vs. Birk...I think it's no contest. I like Birk, but he will turn 33 before the start of the season. We'd be getting him right at the point where his play is likely to start declining (if it hasn't already).

    Regarding Brown vs. a draft pick...It's a matter of taking a proven commodity over the unknown. We would probably be in position to take one of the top centers in the second round, but relying on a draft pick to start for you is always a gamble. Plus we have other needs to address, and this was one pressing need that we hopefully now have squared away.

  13. #43
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    Re: "Brown was overpaid" and other stupid things the "experts" will tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaRam View Post
    Conversely, I got drive-by negative rep by for my comment by Must_Login_To_Lurk....and I didn't even personally attack anyone.

    If you are going to tag me with negative rep, at least make it for a good reason....I wanna feel like I earned it.

    Of course, the little pansy ass hasn't even posted here on the forums. I guess his mom came down to the basement and caught him on the internet so we won't hear much out of him. Perhaps this is his way to signal to me that he wants to date me. Sorry, my boat doesn't rock that way.

    Well, I've got you beat. I get personally attacked by AvengerRam and get negative reps from him too with more personal attacks in them.

    And then he writes a post telling others how to post and be proper fans. Not that's entertainment!

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