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  1. #1
    UK Ramfan 83 is offline Registered User
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    Bruce and Holt still diving then ?!?!

    All,

    Sorry if this has been said before. I'm new to the board, though not to the Rams..(25yrs and counting)

    I noticed this trend started about 7yrs ago between Holt and Bruce, and infected the likes of Az, and Prohel a little bit..

    They catch the ball in open field, and then as they approach 'ANY' defender that is in front of them....well,.....they just fall to the floor at the tacklers feet?!

    I hated watching that when it all started, and I noticed that they were doing it again on Sunday a bit. Now I don't get access to very many games on tv, so I don't know if they have never 'stopped' this practice. It looks lame, and re-enforces the stuff that used to get said by the likes of Joe Horn and some of the Bucc's players, that the Rams play soft..

    I'm all for avoiding injury, and no, they aren't the biggest and strongest of receivers, but come on, cover the ball, dip your head, and .....BAM!
    You don't see other 'slight' receivers doing it. I don't think I have ever seen Marvin Harrison do it, and he is similar in stature (not size) to Bruce and Holt.

    Impetous is an odd thing you know guys! You may just run over a few of them, or at least cause a miss tackle.

    Not only that, but it looks real wet!

    But hey, is it just me who is seeing it creep back in? (That's if it never left in the first place!)

    :r


  2. #2
    HUbison's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce and Holt still diving then ?!?!

    I'm all for avoiding injury
    It would appear otherwise.

    Since the beginning of the Martz era, Bruce and Holt have combined for 1380 catches, 20,584 yards, 121 TDS, 266 games, and..........only 10 games missed due to injuries. Two players, 9 seasons each, and only 10 games missed combined!

    If the price to pay for that kind of consistency and production is looking "wet" and "soft", I'll take it anytime.

    Why do "fans" still complain about this? This offense is built on the vertical-in routes. That creates golden opportunities for safeties, corners, and even LBs to take wide open body shots at these receivers. If Holt and Bruce DIDN'T take dives before the hit, they'd both have been gone long ago.

    Those dives, that just aren't manly enough for some, are one of the reasons (if not the reason), that these two receivers have been able to answer the bell for 96.4% of the games played. Think about that. What other pair of receivers have production numbers like this pairing AND combined miss only 3.6% of the games?
    Last edited by HUbison; -11-20-2007 at 04:53 PM.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    MikeB1603 is offline Registered User
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    Re: Bruce and Holt still diving then ?!?!

    Another plus about the "dive" is that it frustrates defenders so much that they can't get a good hit on Holt and Bruce that they tend to creep a little bit late in the game to try and get that bone-crushing tackle on our recievers but instead get beat. This is just my opinion but the stats do back up the fact that Bruce and Holt put up very good 4th quarter numbers, I think the dive may play a part in that.

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    Re: Bruce and Holt still diving then ?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    If Holt and Bruce DIDN'T take dives before the hit, they'd both have been gone long ago.
    That sums it up perfectly.
    Quote Originally Posted by RealRam
    What next, NFL gay players kissing on the mouth. To me it is S.O.S.: simply/obscene/sickening. Rest assured I will never cheer for a known homo player

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    Re: Bruce and Holt still diving then ?!?!

    I'm bothered by soft play, but the both of them seem to lay the ball on the carpet when they get hit, so as long as they're holding onto it- I'm all for them sliding down.

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    Re: Bruce and Holt still diving then ?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by moloch41 View Post
    I'm bothered by soft play, but the both of them seem to lay the ball on the carpet when they get hit, so as long as they're holding onto it- I'm all for them sliding down.
    I don't see it as soft either, I see it as smart. What good are they if they go out get blown up by not diving and can't play.
    Quote Originally Posted by RealRam
    What next, NFL gay players kissing on the mouth. To me it is S.O.S.: simply/obscene/sickening. Rest assured I will never cheer for a known homo player

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    Re: Bruce and Holt still diving then ?!?!

    Complaining about Holt and Bruce "diving" over the years is like having the best filet mignon you've ever had, cooked perfectly, and complaining that the plate it is served on is slightly chipped.

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    Re: Bruce and Holt still diving then ?!?!

    I don't mind them diving when they are surrounded or about to take a good shot, they aren't the type to break tackles or make guys miss anyway. But there are times they dive way too soon and cost the team yards and possibly touchdowns.

    On the subject of what their reps are, I once heard an interview with Keyshawn Johnson where he was talking about how he does so much more then just catch passes, how he is a physical blocker downfield, etc... Anyway he got kind of mad and starting saying "I ain't soft! If you wanna be a soft receiver then go play for the Rams."

    I don't agree with that and got mad at the time, but the thought that Holt and Bruce are soft is clearly out there in the league.

  9. #9
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    Re: Bruce and Holt still diving then ?!?!

    UK83, good question. I appreciate your observation and do not read it necessarily as a complaint -- I don't think that was your ultimate intention.

    Yes, there is definitely a "change" in the way some WRs have been finishing their pass completions, a clear trend during the last few years, probably now on a permanent basis. In all fairness, I've seen other teams do this as well; I suppose it depends on the game situation.

    It seems to be a modern team policy to protect WRs more, akin to the NFL's agreement of protecting the star QB to a rather considerable degree. 30 - 40 years ago this overly protective mandate to save QBs (penalties for roughing the passer, hitting the head, etc.) would simply have been comical to pro football players, including the QBs themselves! ...Maybe it all began with roughing the kicker after he punts the ball away.

    I agree, it looks a little strange, these "dives and slides" by some receivers to avoid a hard tackle. It used to be where the WR would hit and fight hard, tough, tooth and nail, to get a couple more yards or three. Nowadays, as others have already noted, the WRs' health and assurance to be able to play in one piece the following week supersedes in terms of prioritized options. Too many million$ are on the line with some WRs...

    $uch is the evolution of the game, a $afer approach to it too.


    What MikeB said I thought was very interesting:

    Another plus about the "dive" is that it frustrates defenders so much that they can't get a good hit on Holt and Bruce that they tend to creep a little bit late in the game to try and get that bone-crushing tackle on our recievers but instead get beat. This is just my opinion but the stats do back up the fact that Bruce and Holt put up very good 4th quarter numbers, I think the dive may play a part in that.
    :bash: Welcome to the Clan!
    Last edited by RealRam; -11-20-2007 at 10:15 PM. Reason: Welcome

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    Re: Bruce and Holt still diving then ?!?!

    BTW, anyone know what the "horse collar" rule/penalty dictates?

    I'm not sure how it applies as to grabing the ball carrier by the back of the neck (pads?) but I do know it began just two or three years ago.


    Of course, if a receiver "dives or slides" in advance there will be no such penalty called.

    Last edited by RealRam; -11-20-2007 at 10:18 PM. Reason: Typing!

  11. #11
    UK Ramfan 83 is offline Registered User
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    Re: Bruce and Holt still diving then ?!?!

    Thank's RealRam,

    No it wasn't a complaint. It was a frustrated observation.

    I love the Rams to death, and have flown over from the UK on two occasions just to see them play. The first time was during the 2000 season @ home to the whiners, leaving a 7 month pregnant partner behind in the process (Rams won 40+ to 20+) The second was to a Monday night game V the Buccs (Rams lost 20+ to 10+) But I got to shake 'Big games' hand before the game as he arrived at the stadium...awesome.

    These were trips of a lifetime for someone who began rooting for the team as a 10yr old, having watched Ferragamo, Ellard, Dennard, and Dickerson etc.. tear it up circa. 83/84. All this on a channel in a different country, that aired games a week behind the actual schedule that was being played in the NFL.

    No I am not the oldest fan, or the longest serving "message board" fan/member. But I am a "fan" and have paid my dues (and spent the cash) throughout many seasons (the 90's in particular) to feel I have the right to express my opinion on something about my team that ticks me off. AND I will continue to do so..

    Throw all the stats and numbers in my face all you like, I don't like the diving and never will. It looks sh*t, and it looks soft. And as we can see that opinion is shared around the league to some extent by some other players. Even sportscasters during games are saying that to beat the Rams you need to get physical with the receivers. (New England showed us that in the super bowl, mugging or no mugging)

    Bruce and Holt are not the most successful receiveing tandem in the history of the NFL. (Though they are outstanding) But I would be pretty sure, that whoever it was/is are not advocates of this fall down policy. Love him or hate him (And I hate giving kudos to any whiners) Jerry Rice played for years and years, and I have seen that guy take absolute pummeling's from DB's. (One from Rams Toby Wright in 1996, was so bad I initially thought he had seriously injured Rice, but he got up and carried on after a few minutes).

    Also whether this is B.S or not, I heard that he used to play with the minimum league padding requirments. (Helmet/Shoulders/GS) Though as I say this could be just rumour mill.

    I see it's mentioned that the routes that this team runs occasionally put's them at risk of being hit by a saftey/backer. The last time I looked this was a contact sport where guys wear helmets/shoulder pads/work out/train hard/make plays..etc..etc.
    Historically receivers have been judged by other players, fans, and even commontaters about braveness and toughness when it comes to playing over the middle. It's an unofficial 'yardstick' and a good natured rib to joke with a player during a game about being frightened to go over the middle. I know, as I have played the sport.

    Bruce and Holt have been amazing for the this team, and I love them to death just like all my ram dogs. I just don't like to see it played soft, call it pride if you like. I don't wan't anyone thinking my team is soft. But hey, I can see the rational for doing it, the longevity, investment protection etc.. But has it really made that much of a difference for either health wise? (Another one for the stat monkey's)

    Anyway, apologies for the curtness my brothers, nothing personal just a bit of brit passion. Besides I'm just finishing work, it's 0100hrs and I am well tired. I also have to go home to nurse a sick vomiting two year old..

    Nice...

    Go Rams :r
    Last edited by UK Ramfan 83; -11-20-2007 at 09:49 PM.

  12. #12
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    Re: Bruce and Holt still diving then ?!?!

    I remember hearing Madden comment on the trend of going down rather than fighting for extra yards earlier this season. He said that back when he coached, they wouldn't do that, but he was starting to see why teams did it now. You keep the players healthy and also cut down on the chance of a fumble.

    As far as Bruce and Holt go, if I understand correctly that was actually what Martz coached them to do. I don't really want to see these guys lowering their heads and slamming into guys, but it would be cool if they would try a little harder to make the defender miss and keep running. It's a been a while since we saw a good catch and run.

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    RealRam's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce and Holt still diving then ?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    I don't really want to see these guys lowering their heads and slamming into guys, but it would be cool if they would try a little harder to make the defender miss and keep running. It's a been a while since we saw a good catch and run.
    Exactly. And yes, it's been a while since we've had a break lose, win position and escape to daylight reception.

    On the other hand, we have a new type, or better said, a new wave of WRs at 6-3, 6-4 and 210, even 220 lbs. and they are the ones who put the smack on the defender!

    We'll see if Bennett becomes more productive in this respect and/or if we will acquire a new WR with those big traits. Marques Hagans and Derek Stanley are obviously not of that breed although seemingly good receivers.

  14. #14
    TekeRam's Avatar
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    Re: Bruce and Holt still diving then ?!?!

    I'd rather give up the extra couple yards of offense and keep two hall of famers active, in my opinion.

    To answer Realram, the horse collar, or Roy Williams, rule is when a player(usually Roy Williams) puts his hands inside the back of a runner's pads and pulls straight down to tackle him. The move pulls a player backwards as his legs try to go forward, and has led to numerous leg injuries.

    Ironically, T.O.'s injury while on the Eagles near the end of the regular season when they went to the Super Bowl was caused by Roy Williams and his horse collar technique. Following that year was the offseason that it was made illegal.

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    yellow and blue is offline Registered User
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    Re: Bruce and Holt still diving then ?!?!

    Why do you complain because they fall? When they fall down, there is always a defender right there. I doubt Holt or Bruce will put the defender on his butt and run for another 10 yards.

    They know what they are doing. They are Hall of Famers.. I really don't think their diving is any sort of problem at the moment.

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