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  1. #16
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    Re: Carriker best game at 3 technique

    Quote Originally Posted by laram0 View Post
    Unless we win 11 in row, like I'm expecting.
    True. In which case, our consolation prize (huh?) would be a Derrick Harvey or Lawrence Jackson or Tommy Blake.

    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  2. #17
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    Re: Carriker best game at 3 technique

    What does everyone think about Ryan at NT and Carriker at UT maybe not now, but in the near future.
    I'm all for it; it seems to be working so far.
    JUST WIN ONE FOR THE FANS


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  3. #18
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    Re: Carriker best game at 3 technique

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    I think next year we'll be looking at Ryan at NT, Carriker at UT, a Blue Chip rookie at DE and Little/Hall on the other side.
    Sounds like a very solid plan to me, assuming Ryan/Carriker continue to impress.

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    Re: Carriker best game at 3 technique

    Sounds fine to me. But before we start directing draft picks to the defensive side again, I'd like to be the first (that i've seen) declare that I think we need to start grooming a blue chip Offensive Tackle. There's no way we'll get thru a season without either Pace or Barron getting hurt and it's critical that they have a consistent and able backup to pick up the slack. Linehan should've replaced Steussie within the 53 roster, but didn't and it's hurt us bad. It's unlikely Pace will last more than a couple more years, so a blue chip draft pick at OT makes sense in the long run as well.

    Haslett can do what he needs to do, but let's not send him ALL the premium 2008 draft picks just yet.... ok?

  5. #20
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    Re: Carriker best game at 3 technique

    Little doesnt have any sacks though, do you fancy dropping him?
    No he's hurt (Toe) but I would not mind seeing him out on running plays at times. He gets up field so fast at times, leaves some big cut back lanes on the edge. IMO.

    DE or MLB next year early in the draft.

    but the problem is a 4-3 DE has to be an edge rusher. At 315, I'm not sure Carriker has the mobility to stretch the edge blocking.
    I don't think he is 315, but he could drop a few if he had too. We have seen him make a quick move and get by the center and wrap up the RB. I would like to see him one on one on the edge. Also think he could bull rush at times and hold the edge.

    Ryan has out played him at NT IMO. Wroten may out play him at UT.
    Last edited by Rambos; -10-12-2007 at 08:45 PM.

  6. #21
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    Re: Carriker best game at 3 technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Sounds like a very solid plan to me, assuming Ryan/Carriker continue to impress.
    So Nick, Right now---Who ya got?

    Calais Campbell, DE, Miami

    OR

    Jake Long, OT, Michigan

  7. #22
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    Re: Carriker best game at 3 technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Bar-bq View Post
    So Nick, Right now---Who ya got?

    Calais Campbell, DE, Miami

    OR

    Jake Long, OT, Michigan
    Hard choice, I have some big questions about both of them.

    Calais Campbell has a tremendous amount of upside and really is a fantastic athlete, but he's disappeared at times in games this year. He has, what, four sacks on the season coming into this weekend and 2.5 came against Duke. I'm not convinced he's on the level of a Julius Peppers or Mario Williams right now as a prospect, and I see quite a bit of bust potential there. That said, he can certainly dominate in both phases of the game so if you're looking for an every down end he's the best in terms of talent and upside.

    On the other hand, is Jake Long really a left tackle at the next level? He doesn't have the athleticism that you'd like to see from a blindside tackle, and he's widely criticized as not being an elite pass protector. That's not to say he's a poor pass protector, but if I'm drafting a left tackle in the top of the first round, I want elite pass protection skills and I'm not sure if Long has them. So the issue becomes whether or not you're drafting a right tackle, and most teams don't want to spend that high a pick on a right tackle. If you view Alex Barron as our future left tackle, then taking Jake Long makes more sense but still leaves questions in terms of value. Plus, I'm not even sure I view Barron as our future left tackle.

    In the end I would probably go with Long. I think he's more of a consistent player, and even if he doesn't work out to be a top left tackle we could use him on the right side. I said I have concerns about Barron as a future left tackle, but ultimately I think that's where he's better suited in terms of his skill set so drafting Long gives you a reason to eventually move him over there. Campbell, man I just have some questions.

    I think what we really need at DE is a pass rush, a pure pass rushing guy, which could be found later I believe. If you use the first pick on an OT like Long and the second on a DE to rush the passer, I think you've had two very successful rounds in terms of addressing some areas of need on this team.

    Perhaps the biggest X-Factor in the OT debate though comes from how Orlando Pace looks recovering from his injury.

  8. #23
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    Re: Carriker best game at 3 technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Hard choice, I have some big questions about both of them.

    Calais Campbell has a tremendous amount of upside and really is a fantastic athlete, but he's disappeared at times in games this year. He has, what, four sacks on the season coming into this weekend and 2.5 came against Duke. I'm not convinced he's on the level of a Julius Peppers or Mario Williams right now as a prospect, and I see quite a bit of bust potential there. That said, he can certainly dominate in both phases of the game so if you're looking for an every down end he's the best in terms of talent and upside.
    Too right, he has enormous potential, but at the moment is one of the biggest 'boom or bust' players in the upcoming draft. I'd want to see something more solid than 2.5 Sacks against a weak OL and 1.5 thereafter before I gave the crown to him, and as you mention, our biggest need along the DL is a surefire pass-rusher. But the thing is, although we have improved, our run defense is still lagging a little, so I ask, does it make sense to draft a player who has the potential not only to stop the run, but also to pressure the passer? And the operative word there is potential because the proof of his constant dominance on both sides of the ball is non-existent. He has shown timely flashes, but you want more consistency from your No.1 pick.

    EDIT: Draftace.com, however, had this to say:
    The Vikings have been burned by their previous first round picks spent on defensive ends. Kenechi Udeze and Erasmus James have failed to live up to potential but Campbell is on another level. He a Julius Peppers-type lineman that has the athleticism to contribute as a pass rusher and can chance down the ball carrier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    On the other hand, is Jake Long really a left tackle at the next level? He doesn't have the athleticism that you'd like to see from a blindside tackle, and he's widely criticized as not being an elite pass protector. That's not to say he's a poor pass protector, but if I'm drafting a left tackle in the top of the first round, I want elite pass protection skills and I'm not sure if Long has them. So the issue becomes whether or not you're drafting a right tackle, and most teams don't want to spend that high a pick on a right tackle. If you view Alex Barron as our future left tackle, then taking Jake Long makes more sense but still leaves questions in terms of value. Plus, I'm not even sure I view Barron as our future left tackle.
    I'd take Long, hands down as the better prospect at this point in time, however, the point you make about his projection as a pro player is very true. What he lacks is that pizzaz. That spark that sets him above many OT's in years past. Yes he's very very consistent, but he's not Orlando Pace of 1997. He reminds me, at the moment, of Robert Gallery, No.2 overall in 2005.

    But my question is to how we'd use him. He's played LT for his entire career at Michigan, but he has questions surrounding his ability to do so as a pro. We have Orlando Pace signed to a 50 Million dollar contract, but we can't go into next season without insurance considering the injuries he's had. I have no doubt that he'll be with the team in 2008, and will be the starter pending injury. Then what do you do with your first round OL. You can't put him on the right side because Barron is there--he's been our most consistent OL this year, and has held up impressively. It's too soon to call Pro Bowl, but if he can remain this consistent, it may be in his future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Perhaps the biggest X-Factor in the OT debate though comes from how Orlando Pace looks recovering from his injury.
    Then, What if Pace stays healthy in 2008? Does he starts going into 2009? All of a sudden it could look like we've drafted an OT strictly as an insurance policy, destined to sit at least two seasons on the bench. Do we want someone chewing up the cap room of a high end pick who may not play his first two years? But then again, we have someone groomed if Pace were to go down with injury again, or alternatively to be the starter in 2009. But then, do you want Milford Brown as the primary backup at tackle next season?

    The next thing that needs to be examined is who gives us the best chance to win right away, and that's a tough one.

    Campbell would start right away, but do you draft him based on the enormous potential and hope he thrives at DE and can conribute to improving this defense?

    Long wouldn't start barring injury to Pace or Barron, thus nullifying his contibution to this team in year one. However, should one of our starters go down, his presence as a starter, also gaining experience for the future, would be invaluable. It all begins in the trenches and it would be nice to have solidified the position for years to come.

    I'd like to throw two more names into the pot, two players who I believe can make a quick impact on our franchise. Those two players are Glenn Dorsey and Kenny Phillips.

    Of course, The selection of Dorsey would offset the progress made by Clifton Ryan or Adam Carriker, but it also gives us the option of moving Carriker back to Rush End. I'm not a huge fan of this move, but Dorsey is undoubtedly talented.

    Kenny Phillips would provide some solidity to a SS spot that has been lacking for many years. Chavous has been at best average, and his play has declined from last season to the present one. Then again, you can't have a dominant secondary without a good pass rush.

    Ultimately, it depends on what we can do in free agency. I'd be looking foor Charles Grant (again) or Kerry Rhodes as potential free agent additions, and possibly a backup OT.
    Last edited by Bar-bq; -10-14-2007 at 03:43 AM.

  9. #24
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    Re: Carriker best game at 3 technique

    it really does depend on what we do in FA. Personally i would take Campbell or Phillips because this a very deep OT draft. Philips is the best player in a shallow draft in a position we haven't realy dominated since Adam Archuleta. The dbs wont look as bad with an actual pass rush so I would go with Campbell.

  10. #25
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    Re: Carriker best game at 3 technique

    Quote Originally Posted by 39thebeast View Post
    it really does depend on what we do in FA. Personally i would take Campbell or Phillips because this a very deep OT draft. Philips is the best player in a shallow draft in a position we haven't realy dominated since Adam Archuleta. The dbs wont look as bad with an actual pass rush so I would go with Campbell.
    Oh dear...Archuleta. The system of Lovie Smith made Adam Archuleta. He was a good fit for that system, and not much else. For reference, see the Marmie era, whose schemes wrecked whatever misconceptions had been construed about Archuleta's play circa 2001-3.

    That is, those misconceptions were wrecked for everyone but the Washington Redskins, who made him the highest paid safety in NFL history. He wasn't a dominant safety, but thrived, some could say as a Quasi-linebacker in the Smith defense.

    However, I agree that the Safety draft is not very deep at all, and unfortunately, neither is the pending FA safety class. The best player potentially available aside from Jets standout Kerry Rhodes is probably Mike Doss. Long story short, if we want an instant upgrade, it will be Rhodes or Phillips, unless the FO thinks Todd Johnson (who gets his chance to excel in the absence of Corey Chavous) or Jerome Carter is the future at safety. O.J Atogwe has appeared to play well this season, and if he isn't re-signed we could be after two starting safeties.

    Whilst the OT draft is deep, the best value has to be found in Long. You can look later in round one at Sam Baker from USC or Boise St.'s junior Ryan Clady forr good value, but they're still potential first rounders. You'd be fishing for talent in the second and third rounds, whilst Long is a much surer bet, but It does depend on our status at safety, along the DL and on Pace's recovery.

    If Pace does recover well, a second round OT might be a nice choice--maybe Godser Cherilus or Barry Richardson. I'd say that atm OT is our only definite draft need, as other vacancies can be filled with good players coming in off the waiver wire in the offseason.

  11. #26
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    Re: Carriker best game at 3 technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Bar-bq View Post
    But my question is to how we'd use him.
    You bring up good points. Let's look at it this way, all hypothetically of course.

    You draft Long but go into '08 with Pace @ LT and Barron @ RT. If they're not going to start their highly drafted tackles immediately outside, some teams like to move them in at guard for their rookie year. So Long could compete with Setterstrom at guard, but since we seem to envision Setterstrom as the future LG starter, why replace him? Let Long sit and learn behind Pace and be the guy should something happen.

    If Pace goes down, you can either move Barron and plug in Long @ RT or you plug in Long on the blindside and see how it goes. If Pace stays healthy, then you've got a situation. Pace has four years left of his big contract: '08, '09, '10, and '11. He'll in all likelihood play out the '08 year, so basically we have to figure out what to do with the other three.

    The answer, I believe, would be trade him under either scenario. If he plays well, then your asking price will be higher. If he doesn't play well or gets injured, then obviously you can't get as much. Both age and contract size will be hindering factors either way. But if you're willing to make the commitment to Long in the top of the first round, then you're pretty much closing the door on the Pace era in the near future anyways. Certainly there are teams out there who would be willing to acquire Pace even at an older, less talented state. Left tackles are always in demand.

    And it may not be as costly to move him as one may think. Based on his pro-rated signing bonus money, the Rams would absorb $6.5 million in dead cap money should they trade or cut Pace in 2009. But they'd also be clearing his near $6 million salary off the books as well. So really, they'd only take a net cap hit of about $500K for moving him; not incredibly shabby though you are losing the player.

    Ultimately if you take Long, I think that's what you have to do. All of which, though, is contingent on Long showing the Rams something between being drafted and the trade. Obviously if Long looks like a disappointment in practice, pre-season, or limited regular season time, then you're less likely to move Pace and find yourself in a jam. But hypothetically, that's what my plan would be if I were running a Rams team that just drafted Jake Long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bar-bq View Post
    I'd like to throw two more names into the pot, two players who I believe can make a quick impact on our franchise. Those two players are Glenn Dorsey and Kenny Phillips.

    Of course, The selection of Dorsey would offset the progress made by Clifton Ryan or Adam Carriker, but it also gives us the option of moving Carriker back to Rush End. I'm not a huge fan of this move, but Dorsey is undoubtedly talented.

    Kenny Phillips would provide some solidity to a SS spot that has been lacking for many years. Chavous has been at best average, and his play has declined from last season to the present one. Then again, you can't have a dominant secondary without a good pass rush.
    Dorsey is probably the best three-technique prospect since Warren Sapp, but if the Rams' plan is to ultimately move Carriker to the UT position (which Haslett has mentioned), then drafting Dorsey would mean someone's being wasted and we'd do better trading down. I don't see him as a possibility unless we want to switch to the Tampa 2 sometime soon.

    Phillips is a definite option should he declare but the rumors indicate the Rams do not value safety enough to pay them that much (which was said regarding one reason Jimmy Kennedy won out over Troy Polamalu in '03). If that is true and remains to be the case, I'm not sure Phillips is a real option for us. He should be though, if we're in that 5-8 range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bar-bq View Post
    Ultimately, it depends on what we can do in free agency. I'd be looking foor Charles Grant (again) or Kerry Rhodes as potential free agent additions, and possibly a backup OT.
    Grant signed a seven-year deal in April. I don't believe Rhodes hits free agency until 2009, though I would expect the Jets to resign.

    Quote Originally Posted by 39thebeast View Post
    it really does depend on what we do in FA. Personally i would take Campbell or Phillips because this a very deep OT draft. Philips is the best player in a shallow draft in a position we haven't realy dominated since Adam Archuleta. The dbs wont look as bad with an actual pass rush so I would go with Campbell.
    Phillips isn't even if the draft yet, though. He's a junior, so he's not a lock to declare until the papers are in. As for Campbell, he's definitely a top option but I'm still concerned about consistency.

  12. #27
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    Re: Carriker best game at 3 technique

    Phillips isn't even if the draft yet, though. He's a junior, so he's not a lock to declare until the papers are in. As for Campbell, he's definitely a top option but I'm still concerned about consistency.
    But Campbell isn't in the draft yet either. He, too, is a junior.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  13. #28
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    Re: Carriker best game at 3 technique

    Dorsey is probably the best three-technique prospect since Warren Sapp, but if the Rams' plan is to ultimately move Carriker to the UT position (which Haslett has mentioned), then drafting Dorsey would mean someone's being wasted and we'd do better trading down. I don't see him as a possibility unless we want to switch to the Tampa 2 sometime soon.
    Could we play a 3-4, with AC,Ryan and a Dorsey. We still don't have the personel to make a change?

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    Re: Carriker best game at 3 technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    Could we play a 3-4, with AC,Ryan and a Dorsey. We still don't have the personel to make a change?
    That's what I was wondering about, also. And, you could include C. Wroten's name in the mix as well. I get the feeling that he might make a very good DE in a 3-4 set. This scenario gets all of our young DL on the field at the same time. Could be a plan?

    WHAT SAY YE?

  15. #30
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    Re: Carriker best game at 3 technique

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    But Campbell isn't in the draft yet either. He, too, is a junior.
    Very true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    Could we play a 3-4, with AC,Ryan and a Dorsey. We still don't have the personel to make a change?
    Dorsey is arguably the best three-technique prospect since Warren Sapp. You'd be wasting him in a 3-4.

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