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Thread: The Cost of Mediocrity

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    Barry Waller is offline Registered User
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    The Cost of Mediocrity

    Has there ever been a time in the NFL, when pleyers as low on the position ranking league wise are asking for money that amounts to 1/12 of a teams whole cap?

    There are 19 wide receivers better than Percy Harvin, not even including last year's rookies, and probably more like 25 or 30 better than Boldin, jet they are gonna make $10 million plus, with $30 or more guaranteed and $6 million respectively.

    Here is my list
    1. C. Johnson
    2. B. Marshall
    3. A. Johnson
    4. V. Jackson
    5. AJ Green
    6. L. Fitzgerald
    7. J. Jones
    8. D. Bryant
    9. H Nicks
    10. R. Wyne
    11. D. Thomas
    12. M Crabtree
    13. V. Cruz
    14. W. Welker
    15. R. White
    16. M Colston
    17. M. Wallace
    18. D. Bowe
    19. S. Johnson
    20. Percy Harvin

    Arguably D. Jackson, J. Macklin, G. Jennings, J Nelson, E. Decker, A. Brown could be ahead of Harvin, plus the 2012 rookies.

    I would bet that the 20th best RB or OT would never get top dollar.

    WR and their agents always overestimate their guy's worth. They all think they are Jerry Rice when it comes to getting paid.

    There is no V. Jackson or B. Marshall available this time around, yet teams will pay as if there is.
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    Barry Waller

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    Re: The Cost of Mediocrity

    I don't agree with that at all. I would only take 9 of those WR's before I'd take Harvin. He's more explosive than anyone on that list too. If he can actually play 16 games in a season he'd easily have close to the best stats out of all these guys.


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    Re: The Cost of Mediocrity

    Veteran contracts are only going to continue rising now that rookie deals are so cheap. There is alot more cap room for veterans now, obviously.

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    Re: The Cost of Mediocrity

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Waller View Post
    Has there ever been a time in the NFL, when pleyers as low on the position ranking league wise are asking for money that amounts to 1/12 of a teams whole cap?

    There are 19 wide receivers better than Percy Harvin, not even including last year's rookies, and probably more like 25 or 30 better than Boldin, jet they are gonna make $10 million plus, with $30 or more guaranteed and $6 million respectively.

    Here is my list
    1. C. Johnson
    2. B. Marshall
    3. A. Johnson
    4. V. Jackson
    5. AJ Green
    6. L. Fitzgerald
    7. J. Jones
    8. D. Bryant
    9. H Nicks
    10. R. Wyne
    11. D. Thomas
    12. M Crabtree
    13. V. Cruz
    14. W. Welker
    15. R. White
    16. M Colston
    17. M. Wallace
    18. D. Bowe
    19. S. Johnson
    20. Percy Harvin

    Arguably D. Jackson, J. Macklin, G. Jennings, J Nelson, E. Decker, A. Brown could be ahead of Harvin, plus the 2012 rookies.

    I would bet that the 20th best RB or OT would never get top dollar.

    WR and their agents always overestimate their guy's worth. They all think they are Jerry Rice when it comes to getting paid.

    There is no V. Jackson or B. Marshall available this time around, yet teams will pay as if there is.
    You forgot Titus Young, none of those guys can carry his jock strap.

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    Barry Waller is offline Registered User
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    Re: The Cost of Mediocrity

    I guess STATS have no factor in your ranking . And if you pro rate his stats to 16 games, its 82-920-5, and that was with Brett Favre throwing to him two years and playing indoors on turf.

    The guy is a very small, athletic receiver, but top 10 in the NFL PURELY as a receiver? Hardly, he'll just be paid like it.

    "explosive' might sound good, but you win by SCORING TDs and a guy like Colston, V. Jackson, Bowe, Jennings etc do that WAY better than Harvin ever has. In FOUR years, wouldn't you think he would have ONE gr eat ye ar? Look at guys like Moss, Holt, Rice, Bruce, etc etc, and how great they got pretty quick. Didn't take 4 years.

    At his best, Harvin is a poor man's Tim Brown.

    I assume all have the top 8 as : C. Johnson, A. Johnson, B. Marshall, V. Jackson, AJ Green, J Jones, H. Nicks, L. Fitzgerald

    So that means you have Harvin ahead of Wes Welker, Greg Jennings, Mike Wallace, D. Thomas, D. Bryant, R. Wayne, V. Cruz, R. White, and D. Bowe.

    Based on WHAT?? Potential?? These other guy average well over 90 catches and over 1100 yards and 10 Tds when they play 16 games.

    Harvin's rank For each year are:

    2012 Rec 34th, yards 50th, TDs 66th
    2011 Rec 7th, yards 19th TD 25th
    2010 Rec 18th yards 25th td 37th
    2009 Rec29th yards 31st TD 22nd

    So based on that body of work playing on very good offenses, HOW do those get him the 9th bestin the NFL label?

    Jeremy Mackin is also better, as is DeSean Jackson WHEN THEY play. SO WHEN will he play every gaem, or even close, and how many practices will he miss? No ay i would have dealt for him, just because it is a "weak" year in the draft. It was "weak" the year the Rams took Ike Bruce in Rd 2.

    And in 2009 and 2010 he had Sidney Rice srawing all the double coverage, PLUS he's always had the best back in the NFL keeping safeties in the box. Oh and BRETT FAVRE for two years.
    Barry Waller

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    Re: The Cost of Mediocrity

    >>Veteran contracts are only going to continue rising now that rookie deals are so cheap. There is alot more cap room for veterans now, obviously. >.

    If That were true, would some really good starting players, even pro bowl guys, be getting CUT right nwo in droves?

    Some teams just spend their way on one side while cutting the guys they signed a year ot two earlier.

    Sidney Rice was a far better reveiver than HArvin when eattle signed HIM to that huge deal they are now suffering under.
    Barry Waller

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    Re: The Cost of Mediocrity

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Waller View Post
    I guess STATS have no factor in your ranking . And if you pro rate his stats to 16 games, its 82-920-5, and that was with Brett Favre throwing to him two years and playing indoors on turf.

    The guy is a very small, athletic receiver, but top 10 in the NFL PURELY as a receiver? Hardly, he'll just be paid like it.

    "explosive' might sound good, but you win by SCORING TDs and a guy like Colston, V. Jackson, Bowe, Jennings etc do that WAY better than Harvin ever has. In FOUR years, wouldn't you think he would have ONE gr eat ye ar? Look at guys like Moss, Holt, Rice, Bruce, etc etc, and how great they got pretty quick. Didn't take 4 years.

    At his best, Harvin is a poor man's Tim Brown.

    I assume all have the top 8 as : C. Johnson, A. Johnson, B. Marshall, V. Jackson, AJ Green, J Jones, H. Nicks, L. Fitzgerald

    So that means you have Harvin ahead of Wes Welker, Greg Jennings, Mike Wallace, D. Thomas, D. Bryant, R. Wayne, V. Cruz, R. White, and D. Bowe.

    Based on WHAT?? Potential?? These other guy average well over 90 catches and over 1100 yards and 10 Tds when they play 16 games.

    Harvin's rank For each year are:

    2012 Rec 34th, yards 50th, TDs 66th
    2011 Rec 7th, yards 19th TD 25th
    2010 Rec 18th yards 25th td 37th
    2009 Rec29th yards 31st TD 22nd

    So based on that body of work playing on very good offenses, HOW do those get him the 9th bestin the NFL label?

    Jeremy Mackin is also better, as is DeSean Jackson WHEN THEY play. SO WHEN will he play every gaem, or even close, and how many practices will he miss? No ay i would have dealt for him, just because it is a "weak" year in the draft. It was "weak" the year the Rams took Ike Bruce in Rd 2.

    And in 2009 and 2010 he had Sidney Rice srawing all the double coverage, PLUS he's always had the best back in the NFL keeping safeties in the box. Oh and BRETT FAVRE for two years.
    The only guys I'd take over Harvin are: Megatron, Marshall, AJ Green, Julio Jones, Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, Larry Fitz, Demayrius Thomas, and maybe Dez Bryant, though that one's arguable.

    It has nothing to do with potential. When Harvin plays he's proved he's lethal. He runs the ball, catches it, returns punts and kicks. He's good for 15-20 touches a game. The only knock on Harvin is his injury concerns (migraines, though he had none this past year).


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    Re: The Cost of Mediocrity

    <<When Harvin plays he's proved he's lethal. He runs the ball, catches it, returns punts and kicks. He's good for 15-20 touches a game.

    Maybe on some teams, but does he beat out Leon Washington, maybe the best in the NFL?

    How has he proven to be lethal, with 20 TOTAL car eer rec TDs.

    HE HAS NEVER RETURNED A PUNT IN THE NFL, so I don't see wher you get that.


    Harvin has 5 KRTDs which is where much of his "rep" comes from, making sportscenter with those.
    LEON Washington has 8 KR TDs.

    Do you REALLY think they will risk this injury prone guy with a huge guaranteed deal returning KICKS!!
    The last two years, Harvin has not returned kickoffs much at all, about 1.5 average pergame..

    His KR stardom was AS A ROOKIE .

    As far as running the ball I'd rather have him doing it to me than Lynch. harvin only did that much ONE year.

    Everyone points to his running ability,, but even with good lines, and a great back to take defenders with him, Harvin averages just over 6 yards per carry. Again, he has 4 TDs, which make the highliughts.

    If I pay a guy 1/10 of my WHOLE cap, plus three draft picksn including #23, I expect more than an Eric Metcalf clone. I expect 120 catches, 1400 yards, 13 TDs and good blocking, a good attitude, and a TOUGH player.

    Maybe you should look at THIS :
    Percy Harvin Stats - Minnesota Vikings - ESPN

    I just don't see where everyone thinks this guy is a future HOF player, just because he changed teams, to possibly a worse offense than he left .

    It's a HUGE reach by Seattle, and SF got a more ctutch receiver and team player, who can BLOCK, and SCORE for a pittance comparitively.
    Barry Waller

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    Re: The Cost of Mediocrity

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Waller View Post
    >>Veteran contracts are only going to continue rising now that rookie deals are so cheap. There is alot more cap room for veterans now, obviously. >.

    If That were true, would some really good starting players, even pro bowl guys, be getting CUT right nwo in droves? .
    Yes, because some teams are still feeling the sting of those large rookie contracts, seeing that the new system was only implemented in 2011. Our very own Rams are dealing with this. Sam was the last number one pick in the old system, and we are strapped because of it. Imagine if we got him a year later. Of the top of my head, I'm going to guess we would have about 15mil a year more in cap space.

    Also, even if there are teams that are not strapped by old system rookie contracts, that doesnt mean they are going to keep all theyre "good starting players". Teams are always looking to upgrade different positions and if they think cutting a starter will get them a better one, mayhe at a position of higher need, they'll do it.

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    Re: The Cost of Mediocrity

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Waller View Post
    <<When Harvin plays he's proved he's lethal. He runs the ball, catches it, returns punts and kicks. He's good for 15-20 touches a game.

    Maybe on some teams, but does he beat out Leon Washington, maybe the best in the NFL?

    How has he proven to be lethal, with 20 TOTAL car eer rec TDs.

    HE HAS NEVER RETURNED A PUNT IN THE NFL, so I don't see wher you get that.


    Harvin has 5 KRTDs which is where much of his "rep" comes from, making sportscenter with those.
    LEON Washington has 8 KR TDs.

    Do you REALLY think they will risk this injury prone guy with a huge guaranteed deal returning KICKS!!
    The last two years, Harvin has not returned kickoffs much at all, about 1.5 average pergame..

    His KR stardom was AS A ROOKIE .

    As far as running the ball I'd rather have him doing it to me than Lynch. harvin only did that much ONE year.

    Everyone points to his running ability,, but even with good lines, and a great back to take defenders with him, Harvin averages just over 6 yards per carry. Again, he has 4 TDs, which make the highliughts.

    If I pay a guy 1/10 of my WHOLE cap, plus three draft picksn including #23, I expect more than an Eric Metcalf clone. I expect 120 catches, 1400 yards, 13 TDs and good blocking, a good attitude, and a TOUGH player.

    Maybe you should look at THIS :
    Percy Harvin Stats - Minnesota Vikings - ESPN

    I just don't see where everyone thinks this guy is a future HOF player, just because he changed teams, to possibly a worse offense than he left .

    It's a HUGE reach by Seattle, and SF got a more ctutch receiver and team player, who can BLOCK, and SCORE for a pittance comparitively.
    Seattle has put Leon Washington on the trade block, so yes, Harvin will take that spot over...


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    Re: The Cost of Mediocrity

    Not evey team got bit by huge rookie deals, just the top 5 or 10 really, especially the top three.

    are you saying the Falcons cut leading pass rushers John Abraham or Indy Dwight Freeny because they will get better guys? Does Denver think DJ Williams is done at 30? Does BAltimore think Boldin is done?

    Same for the redskins with D. Hall, The Steelers with J. Harrison, Baltimore with B. Williams, Ariz with A. Wilson, Carolina with Chris Gamble, Jacksonville with Dwan Landry, the Rams with Mikell, and Jackson, KC with Eric Winston, ,Miami with Long, and Reggie Bush, SD with Spikes, Dallas with Sensibaugh,?

    MORE will get cut as big signings occur, INCLUDING SEATTLE.

    SUre many are older guys, but I bet their replacements are not as good, and this year teams had more cap than usual, they are just wasting it as usual., by letting agents drive the prices up among the suckers.

    There are a lot of solid veterans who can''t get any deal right now.
    Barry Waller

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    Re: The Cost of Mediocrity

    If they deal Washington, they gained nothing in the KR, and Harvin has NEVER returned punts in the NFL, so they would have to get another guy to do THAT.

    I hope he does returns, better chance of him getting dinged up.

    No way, based on evidence, that one can say this is a slam dunk great deal for Seattle. I bet they have to cut Sid Rice now too, so the gain from Harvin as a WR won't be as great .

    Harvin is a HUGELY overrated player, based on what he has actually don in the NFL

    Are you aware that at the U, for three years, he only averaged . 44/640/4 ?
    His big deal was RUSHING the ball in that wide open offense, but no receiver really does that much as a pro.

    As a receiver, he's always been an injury prone underachiever, and I doubt that will change with more and more money. He's not a leader, not a great coachable guy, not a team guy, When I pay 1/10 of my total cap, it had better be a leader, not just a guy that wows the scouts in pajamas.
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    Re: The Cost of Mediocrity

    Barry, I think your misunderstanding my original post.

    All I was pointing out was that every teams rookie contracts starting in 2011 drastically reduced. Therefore, there are millions of dollars of extra cap space per team that prior to 2011 had to be used for rookie contracts. Where else would that cap space go besides veteran free agents and occasionally locking down your own guys? More cap space, more money to throw around, higher veteran contracts.
    Last edited by FestusRam; -03-12-2013 at 02:23 AM.

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    Re: The Cost of Mediocrity

    You can't just ignore his rushing stats as part of Harvin' production. In 2011 he had 1312 yards from scrimmage and had 6.6 yards per rush attempt. 6.6 is incredibly good and was a higher yards per attempt than Christian Ponder's passing yards per attempt(this hardly ever happens). There is a reason why Harvin was in the MVP discussion before he got injured in 2012 and Adrian Peterson wouldn't have just called him the best all around player he had ever seen if Harvin wasn't a great player.

    The injury issue is a real problem and I would be very concerned about that and the draft picks given up if I were a Seahawks fan but lets not completely discount him as a player and what he can do when healthy.

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    Re: The Cost of Mediocrity

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    You forgot Titus Young, none of those guys can carry his jock strap.
    As receivers, can they catch it?
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