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  1. #1
    moklerman's Avatar
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    A couple of questions...

    First, let me say this isn't a bashing thread. It's too easy to kick a horse when he's down and I think there are quite a few easy targets on the Rams right now.

    However, just like I didn't get too excited about last week's win against Arizona I'm not going to get too critical of today's loss against Atlanta.

    The first question I have, related to the overall coaching and personnel management is related to the qb. The argument that some, including myself, have been making in defense of keeping Warner, is that his overall support was questionable in a lot of cases. Bulger has proven to be no more effective in my opinion, but on the whole a lot luckier than Warner. It's not an attack on Bulger, just an observation that numerous times Bulger has been bailed out of his mistakes whereas Warner was not. The interception return for a td today is a good example of this.

    Some are coming around to the fact that playcalling, personnel and opponents have an effect on how well a qb succeeds. Marc Bulger's 1-3 in his last 4 starts now, and coming up on a tough schedule. If the Rams continue to stuggle under his leadership will he be cast off?

    Secondly, I thought it a crazy idea at the time, but last year more than one person suggested that we keep Lovie and get rid of Martz. On the surface this seems like an outlandish, extreme course of action. However, with the Rams lack of turnovers and the Bears relatively quick success this may not have been such a bad idea. Lovie has given Thomas Jones new life, his defense is creating turnovers and scoring points and all in all doing rather well for having a new head coach. In addition, Martz doesn't seem to be progressing as a coach in a lot of areas and if it's already been established that the Rams can't win the big one unless Martz makes some changes in philosophy, is it wise to keep him?


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    Re: A couple of questions...

    It wasn't the problem of the QB yesterday.

    The running game was non-existent which caused the Rams to call the plays like they did. I mean, what's the difference between 3rd and 8 running the ball or 3rd and 10 with two incompletions?

    The Bears are 1-1 just like the Rams. I didn't see anything real special in the Bears other than they looked really fired up to play the Packers and Green Bay looked as flat as the Rams.

    If Bulger dosen't win, sure he'll be cast off. Just like the rest. However, it's getting very obvious that Pickett and DLew aren't the answer at DT. That I hang on Armey and the Front Office.

  3. #3
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: A couple of questions...

    Its amazing... Bulger has a 95.5 QB rating (102.2 yesterday) and the Warnerites want to reopen the Bulger/Warner debate.


    Open your eyes. Bulger's not the problem.

    And don't give Lovie too much credit. He had a good Sunday, but he'll have some bad ones too.

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    Re: A couple of questions...

    Quote Originally Posted by Avenger
    Its amazing... Bulger has a 95.5 QB rating (102.2 yesterday) and the Warnerites want to reopen the Bulger/Warner debate.
    Now wait a minute AR...first off, you're right, Bulger is about 9th on our list of problems right now, far from a priority, if a problem at all in the grand scheme of things.

    But don't start with the Warnerite name calling. Let me remind you who was the first to bring up the Giants QB...
    Quote Originally Posted by Avenger
    That's a QB rating of 95.5 (and, since it is inevitable that someone will bring that up, that is higher than the 89.2 rating that the Giants QB has).
    This was the first post in your "Don't Blame Bulger" (which I agree we shouldn't). That thread was opened minutes after the game ended. You opened that can, not any of the "Warnerites". Had someone else started it, I could see the response. However, don't be surprised when you launch the first volley only to see pro-Warner response.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: A couple of questions...

    I posted that because I knew someone would bring up Warner. Perhaps that was a bad move by me, but do you honestly believe that if I had not made that preemptive comment that nobody would be trying to use the Rams' loss as a basis to revisit the Bulger/Warner debate?

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    Re: A couple of questions...

    It really dosen't matter to me personally anymore about Warner/Bulger. It's a non-issue. There were locker room factors that we as fans don't know about and don't really need to know.

    However, Bulger played a good game but just like Warner in this offense, mistakes by the QB are GLARING. That's why interceptions are not as big of a deal as fumbles. Yesterday's deal with Bulger in the end zone is as close to a fumble as you can get without it being one. Maybe he should have thrown the ball a little sooner knowing he was backed up in the endzone and pressure was coming. Pressure was coming all day.

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    Re: A couple of questions...

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    Bulger has proven to be no more effective in my opinion, but on the whole a lot luckier than Warner.
    At least during the 1st 2 games this year, I'd say MB has reason to put some money on the lottery. In fact, I'd say the refs have tried to keep the scales balanced for the most part.

  8. #8
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    Re: A couple of questions...

    I think it's time to slip Tommy Polley back into the starting strong side backer position. Chillar made some plays in the first game, but I don't recall him doing anything in the last game.

    I was excited to see the Rams shake up the linebackers, but Tommy Polley has shown he's a playmaker in the past. It might be time to think about making the switch.

  9. #9
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    Re: A couple of questions...

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    If the Rams continue to stuggle under his leadership will he be cast off?
    Probably not until after next season. I imagine by signing Chandler and drafting Smoker, the Rams have at least considered the idea that Marc Bulger might not work out. If that's the case, they're probably counting on Chandler to be a filler QB if Bulger can't even do that while they try and develop Smoker.

    But remember, it wasn't until Warner faltered (again, for whatever reason) and was injured that we even heard of Marc Bulger, and even after Warner's 2002, he got the starting job back and lost it because of a deadly mix of injury and below average to average play. Who knows how 2003 would have shaped out if Warner hadn't been injured in Week 1. But I would think if Bulger has a sub-par season then the Rams will probably begin to formulate a possible contingency plan, but still try and depend on him as the starter in 2005 and see how he does.


    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    if it's already been established that the Rams can't win the big one unless Martz makes some changes in philosophy, is it wise to keep him?
    Apparently our performances against the Cards and Falcons is not enough to get too excited or critical about, but were enough to support the theory that we should have kept Lovie and dumped Martz. Can't say I'm following that logic. If it's not important enough to get really critical or excited, I'm not sure there's enough there to support your theory either. But this isn't really the point...

    To answer your question, at least with my own opinion, changing the reigns to another coach because Martz hasn't been able to win the big one seems a bit drastic, especially since this entire offense is built to Martz's specifics. What new coach is going to come in and be able to direct this offense to the efficiency that Martz has? A new coach would mean personnel and major philosophy changes, which would mean a pretty big overhaul with players. I'm just not sure it's worth the trouble.
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    Re: A couple of questions...

    Now wait a minute AR...first off, you're right, Bulger is about 9th on our list of problems right now, far from a priority, if a problem at all in the grand scheme of things.
    But don't start with the Warnerite name calling. Let me remind you who was the first to bring up the Giants QB...
    This was the first post in your "Don't Blame Bulger" (which I agree we shouldn't). That thread was opened minutes after the game ended. You opened that can, not any of the "Warnerites". Had someone else started it, I could see the response. However, don't be surprised when you launch the first volley only to see pro-Warner response.
    Thank you for calling a spade a spade. I can't speak for anyone else, but the last thing on my mind after this game was another Warner/Bulger comparison. It wasn't until that snide remark that I felt compelled to respond. If you're gonna push my buttons, don't be surprised when I push back.

    As far as Bulger's performance yesterday, I didn't put any blame on him whatsoever. I'd be the biggest hypocrite out there if I blamed him for a loss when the rest of the team played the way they did. For those with the short memories, I constantly harped on the extenuating circumstances regarding Warner's losses, why on earth would I not acknowledge that those factors are still playing a part? I do find it somewhat humorous that there are those that denied those circumstances before, but are trying to hang their hats on them now.
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    Re: A couple of questions...

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    I posted that because I knew someone would bring up Warner. Perhaps that was a bad move by me, but do you honestly believe that if I had not made that preemptive comment that nobody would be trying to use the Rams' loss as a basis to revisit the Bulger/Warner debate?
    No, you've made a fair assumption. These two will forever be tied together. Mention that one has a size 11 shoe, and someone will say the other has a size 12. One prefers Coke, the other Pepsi.
    X-ite: "I heard QB X likes vanilla"
    Z-ite: "Oh yea, well, QB Z likes chocolate"
    X-ite: "Yea, but QB X invented chocolate"
    Z-ite: "But vanilla is stupid and so is QB X"
    X-ite: "you're stupid"
    Z-ite: "You're mama's stupid"
    so on and so forth...the debate will never fade.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  12. #12
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    Re: A couple of questions...

    What new coach is going to come in and be able to direct this offense to the efficiency that Martz has? A new coach would mean personnel and major philosophy changes, which would mean a pretty big overhaul with players. I'm just not sure it's worth the trouble.
    Is it worth the trouble...? Isn't winning a Super Bowl worth whatever trouble it takes? As far as a different coach running the offense as "efficiently" as Martz...well, I don't know if that's the word I'd use to describe how Martz runs the offense. And, yes a new coach would mean personnel and philosophy changes. That's the point.

    Apparently our performances against the Cards and Falcons is not enough to get too excited or critical about, but were enough to support the theory that we should have kept Lovie and dumped Martz.
    If you actually read my post and honestly think this is what I was saying then it really doesn't matter what I write. My questions aren't based on the first two games this year. My questions come AFTER the first two games but there is a difference.

    The Lovie question is just something that I had never considered very seriously and after his early success decided to re-introduce the question started by others last year.

    And, just like any other thread that has "qb A" mentioned with "qb B", people instantly "assume" what the thread is about and launch into their passionate defense of one or the other. But my question isn't an argument of which one is better than the other.

    My point is about the coaching and decisions related to the qb position. The Rams already got rid of one qb, who some of us argued wasn't the root of our problems...just like yesterday. The coaching, gameplanning, personnel, o-line, defense and rookies who aren't quite ready yet were all more responsible for what happened than the qb. Now, apply that to what happened between 2002-2003 and you can see why some of us were so vehemantly defending our previous qb.

    But PLEASE don't think I'm starting a "vs." thread. My questions are about coaching. One hypothetical (keeping Lovie) and one phylosophical (Coaching and management building a foundation for struggles).

  13. #13
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: A couple of questions...

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    Is it worth the trouble...? Isn't winning a Super Bowl worth whatever trouble it takes? As far as a different coach running the offense as "efficiently" as Martz...well, I don't know if that's the word I'd use to describe how Martz runs the offense. And, yes a new coach would mean personnel and philosophy changes. That's the point.
    Unless you're Miss Cleo or have some kind of psychic connection, there's absolutely no guarantee that a coaching change is going to bring about a Super Bowl win. For all we know, it could bring about mediocrity or even horrible results. I'm almost positive it would for the first season or so as the new coach tries to reshape the team.


    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    And, just like any other thread that has "qb A" mentioned with "qb B", people instantly "assume" what the thread is about and launch into their passionate defense of one or the other. But my question isn't an argument of which one is better than the other.
    And my response wasn't an argument of that nature, either. The point I was trying to make by mentioning Warner was that the Rams had no real young guy that they were trying to build up as a replacement. They didn't really anticipate needing one. Bulger was their third string, but I don't recall that it was a project that was going to result in a future starter. Perhaps I'm wrong, though.

    Anyways, Warner was expendable because a viable replacement was available. Do we have such a replacement? I fear the team would be attending Chandler's funeral had he been behind center against Atlanta, and Smoker probably isn't ready to take over - then again, we were probably saying the same thing about Bulger prior to the 2002 game against Oakland. Regardless, I was trying to support my opinion that Bulger wouldn't be "cast off" until at least the end of 2005 by bringing up Warner's situation.


    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    But PLEASE don't think I'm starting a "vs." thread. My questions are about coaching. One hypothetical (keeping Lovie) and one phylosophical (Coaching and management building a foundation for struggles).
    I don't think you started a versus thread. I tried to answer your questions to the best of my ability.
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  14. #14
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    Unhappy Re: A couple of questions...

    The bottom line on all these concerns being brought up, is the coaching staff really focusing the opponent. Two weeks in a row, Martz has been somewhat out coached. With Arizona Dennis Green showed up with a running attack, and this week Jim Mora just sent Warren Dunn and Michael Vick on the prowl.
    The whole deal is we can put blame on anyone person. But the reality is everyone is accountable. And like in business the owner is ultimately responsible. In Pro Football the Coach is the last resort to a poorly planned gameplan.
    The whole deal is that whether Bulger or Marshall or the Defensive unit plays well or not. Martz has recently been out planned and he has made minimal adjustments. Atlanta exposed some key areas. And the schedule is not going to get any easier. We could be seeing Mike Martz's first 5-11 or 4-12 season as a head coach. The Question is How will he be able to handle the pressures of a season going south.
    We all want this team to win on every sunday. But it is not to happen the way this team is being coached. The players are one part of the scheme but if the coaching staff is not calling the right plays to counter the opponent. We could be in for a long season.
    PS Dennis Green and Mike Holmgren do not have any sympathy for us.
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    Re: A couple of questions...

    Unless you're Miss Cleo or have some kind of psychic connection, there's absolutely no guarantee that a coaching change is going to bring about a Super Bowl win. For all we know, it could bring about mediocrity or even horrible results. I'm almost positive it would for the first season or so as the new coach tries to reshape the team.
    You're right that there are no guarentees BUT, there are probabilities. Let's use Dave Wannstedt as the example rather than Martz. Martz is just too much of a hot topic for Rams fans to be completely objective in my opinion.

    So, you've got Dave coaching a Dolphins team that is generally around 10 wins a season. The Dolphins rarely advance in the playoffs under his leadership but you pretty much know what you've got with him. The Dolphins are going to have a good to great defense, that being Dave's specialty and where his roots lay. He is probably a lot better co-ordinator than head coach. His team is mired in a qb controversy created by himself. His team has made questionable personnel moves more than a few times and no matter how many changes they make, things always seem to come out the same for the Dolphins.

    Some of you may have been aware of all of this but I wanted to preface my question with a little background for those who may not have been.

    Now, the million dollar question: Would YOU fire Dave Wannstedt in an attempt to improve the Dolphins?

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