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Thread: The curious case of Sam Bradford

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    Re: The curious case of Sam Bradford

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramhearder View Post
    Can anyone argue that Sam is the future of our team? That we should be moving forward with him? I know that most of you don't live in St. Louis and don't attend the games. That mean's you have to watch the field as shown on TV. Being a season ticket holder and being there to see the poor decisions that Sam makes game in and game out with no wavering has proven that he is simply what he is. I love my Rams, but I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can still love Bradford as a QB.
    I'm with you. I don't live in the area, but after watching Coaches Film on NFL rewind more closely this year, I'm seeing the same thing.


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    Re: The curious case of Sam Bradford

    Quote Originally Posted by lordwhttgr View Post
    Who we going to blame this 2-3 w/l record on. Surely not the running backs, they’re great. How about that spectacular O line, no one gets threw them! Our defensive backs are great, they never give up 20 yard TDs to the opponents RBs. Let’s all blame our woes on Sam Bradford. Why? Cause why not that’s why!!!
    And while you’re at it name all the QBs out there we can get for next week’s game against Houston.
    To me, the argument is not about Bradford being responsible for the losses. Both the players and coaches are sucking. The argument is about Bradford just being a mediocre qb that is going with the flow. Not a high draft pick elevating the offense and playing at the level he was drafted at.


    As the team improves, people, including myself will not care as much that we have an average qb. But, I'd like someone that lives up to the hype and draft status. Especially now, the time when we need it.

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    Re: The curious case of Sam Bradford

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    You know what I think...

    I think that if the Rams were 4-1 but Sam had a passer rating of 70, the same people who are saying "the numbers don't matter because he's not winning" would be saying "he's not winning, the team is - his numbers stink!"
    I think you're right. Unfortunately, that would mean that Sam was, at best, a game manager, and that the team would be winning in spite of his performance. The problem with that is the amount of his contract, AND the fact that he was the overall #1 draft selection.

    I want Sam to get better. I want him to be a franchise type QB. The fact that he still stares down receivers, still holds the ball too long, and still appears to lack the ability to audible seems to indicate that either he lacks the intelligence to be coached (i doubt this), lacks confidence in his team, or lacks the coaching necessary to make him better (not sold on Frank Cignetti).

    Right now we have LOTS of issues. To me, while Sam still looks a bit lost, he's not our biggest problem. I'm not one of the fans calling for Sam's head. I don't see a better option in the near future. I also wouldn't draft another QB until we fixed our issues with the O-line. Against any decent defense, our O-line looks non-existant. A solid O-line might be the key to helping Sam, and our pathetic run game as well. That being said, if we fix the line, That would definitely shorten the leash Sam was on. We didn't draft and pay him HUGE money to be a game manager.
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    Re: The curious case of Sam Bradford

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramhearder View Post
    Can anyone argue that Sam is the future of our team? That we should be moving forward with him? I know that most of you don't live in St. Louis and don't attend the games. That mean's you have to watch the field as shown on TV. Being a season ticket holder and being there to see the poor decisions that Sam makes game in and game out with no wavering has proven that he is simply what he is. I love my Rams, but I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can still love Bradford as a QB.
    I watch almost every game each year on tv and attend at least one in person and I would have to agree with you on this one. Here is how I look at a player, especially a QB

    1. Is he a leader? and this has several layers, including does his team look to him for answers? Does he take or place blame, and give credit where its due? Is he amped and firing up the team or is he just clocked in and not worried about team morale and attitude?
    2. Stats
    3. X-factor (insert Tony Romo here) His stats may be good, but does that include lower level opponents and garbage time make up plays? And how many times does he blow that one important play, you know like when you need one yard and you under throw the receiver on the checkdown..
    4. How much work do other players have to do to make up for his shortcomings. I know there are still at a lot of dropped balls, but how many of his passes actually are behind or ahead of the receiver just outside the sweet spot.
    5. Can he improvise? Will the coaching staff allow him to audible or is he capable of doing so?

    To me there is a lot more to a job than just the spreadsheet of stats...there is the person and who he is. From what I have seen from Sam to date, he is much like Bulger, a great passer in camp and practice, but I'm not sold he is the exceptional leader needed to take us to the top.

    Shane Falco: "I want the ball."
    Jimmy McGinty: "Winners always do."
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    Re: The curious case of Sam Bradford

    Quote Originally Posted by renrawtruk View Post
    There's no hope.

    What you see is what you get. We've all seen enough of Sam Bradford in his fourth year to know this is him. He is sadly still looking like a deer in headlights out there - compared to not only elite QB's like Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, but also Kaepernick, Wilson, Luck, etc... the new kids on the block. (BTW, stats are great, but all these guys have winning records and make the playoffs every year, so even if Bradford has them on TD's for a brief moment in space this early in the season, they've already proven they can succeed. Sam, unfortunately, is still out there trying to prove himself.)
    I am not sure what to think about Sam B. This team has so many deficiencies on both sides of the ball, and special teams, Sam’s foibles are only one part of a larger problem. The score could have been a lot more lopsided if we hadn’t had the stupid penalties that took away great field position on punt returns by Tavon. There were multiple drops by receivers (in yet another game) that killed drives – and so on, and so on. Yes we won .. But we didn’t dominate a weaker opponent that we probably should have.

    Quote Originally Posted by renrawtruk View Post
    Bradford is proving to be one-dimensional, which he got away with at Oklahoma. He is going in to run the play that is called. No audibles, no leading the team, no pointing at the defense and making adjustments to the play at the LOS. Just simply going out there to throw the ball to the guy the play was designed to go to. At doing that, he has proven to be somewhere in the middle to bottom half of the league...15th-23rd- where almost all his career statistics land.
    Given the current route running skills of our receiving corps, I don’t think I’d have a great deal of faith calling audibles at this point. It seems our receivers have enough trouble being where they are supposed to be on plays that are called out in the huddle – let alone having to think on the fly when the play is changed at the LOS. That said, Sam does call audibles and changes plays at the LOS. It would however help if those audibles were executed properly. When a receiver becomes “hot” that receiver needs to recognize this and adjust his route accordingly. If he doesn’t, the result is not pretty. It’ no wonder Sam seems to hold the ball too long at times.

    I am not trying to make Bradford out as a Saint. He does hold the ball a tick too long at times, particularly on deep routes. He does tend to lock on his receivers too often. Conversely, if he doesn’t trust the receivers to be where they are supposed to be, it’s perhaps a tough decision to zing it out and just hope.

    When Danny A. played for us (on the occasions he was healthy enough), Sam at least trusted Danny, and more often than not Danny delivered. Trouble was Danny was really the only consistently reliable receiver Sam had. Sure others had their moments, but there were a lot of dropped passes, wrong routes or worse. It didn’t take long before defenses realized that if they took Danny away, our offense would struggle.


    Quote Originally Posted by renrawtruk View Post
    Bradford is overwhelmed at the NFL level.
    I can’t help but wonder how “overwhelmed” he’d look without all the dumb penalties, dropped passes, wrong routes, etc. Most of all it would help immeasurably if we had a strong enough running game our opponents had to respect. That of course would mean that our O-line could consistently get a strong push on opposing D-lines, let alone punish opposing linebackers on the second level. Maybe Sam should work on his blocking hmn?

    Quote Originally Posted by renrawtruk View Post
    Can he get a little better at what he does? Sure. Do some QB's need a little more time to adjust to the NFL game? sure. Is Bradford ever going to be much different than we've seen already? No. Will we ever get to a Superbowl with Sam Bradford? Not unless we have the 85 Bears defense.
    Perhaps the question should be: Will we ever find/develop receivers that earn Sam’s trust? Too many times I have seen a receiver go to a spot and then sit on it – wait and watch. Tavon comes to mind here. The guy Sam seems to trust the most is Austin Pettis, and it’s easy to see why. Trouble is Pettis isn’t a threat to break a game open, he’s a chain mover and red zone threat. Brian Quick has to be the most frustrating guy for Sam and Schotty. One minute he’ll make a highlight reel catch, and then he’ll disappear or worse drop a couple that hit him right in the hands.

    If anything, I am astonished that we seem incapable of developing better offensive schemes. Utilizing what albeit modest advantages we do seem to have. Not knowing what Schottenheimer is concocting each week, it is perhaps unfair to heap the lion’s share of blame on him, however, watching this offense reminds me of the movie “Groundhog Day.”
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    Re: The curious case of Sam Bradford

    Stat-wise, Sam places in the upper mid echleon THIS year- largely due to the Arizona and Atlanta games.

    However, what we saw Sunday vs Jacksonville is vintage Sam

    19/34
    222yards
    ........
    irregardless of who the OC is (though I do think Schott has got to be released)
    somehow though, he had 3 TDs, which even I admit is good for Sam.

    Now the real issue here isnt neccessarily the completion percentage, yards throuwn for, INT/TD ratio etc.... it the Win to Loss ratio.

    I keep seeing people compare Sam to Brady, Ryan, Wilson, etc..., BUT

    all these people he is compared to have 2 things he clearly hasnt developed, and I really dont think he will ever have

    1) Leadership Charisma
    2) Wins.

    Im not posting these sentiments for no reason. It has been apparent all these years that what we see is really what we get. If Sams stats were the same but we won games, then Im not posting opinions such as this. However, the empirical evidence is what it is. The fact that Sam doesnt have a supporting cast around him doesnt hold either as the 'New Wave' of QBs doesnt either.

    Wilson had MLynch, but what has who else is around him? Defense? well.... they arent blocking, running and catching for him.

    Kaepernick has.... WRs? none that scare defenses Crabtree? Only Gore and Davis are there. Boldin showed up for 1 game. Perhaps it his other playmaking ability that keeps opposing Ds honest and allows the rest of his cast to produce.

    RG3- who did he have last year? no one to speak of. Again its his playmaking ability that carried that team.

    Luck- Reggie Wayne- thats it. His Oline was said to be horrible, yet he wills plays to happen.

    Rivers-- yep hes a great QB since he came in. He consitently produces no matter if has or doesnt have talent around him.

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    Re: The curious case of Sam Bradford

    I just want to add that some of those numbers don't take into consideration that some teams have already had a bye week and that Falcons and Jets haven't played yet this week.

    If we take the ranking by Yards/game and TD/game we can get a more accurate picture:

    Yards/game: 16th (ahead of Tom Brady, Colin Kaepernick, Russel Wilson, Andrew Luck - but behind Geno Smith, Matt Schaub and RGIII)

    TDs/game: Tied 5th (Tied with Cutler and Ryan, ahead of Brady, RGIII, Dalton, Newton)

    Some of these stats aren't necessarily indicators of good QB play, and really the sample size is still to small to talk about QB rating. Did a little calculation, if Bradford had thrown one more incompletion doing the entire season, he would fall two spots on the QB rating list (Behind Tannehill and RGIII). That can't be the best way to evaluate QB's

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    Re: The curious case of Sam Bradford

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramhearder View Post
    The comparative stats stance doesn't work anymore. His numbers are inflated from trash time for one.
    I've never met you Ramhearder, and you may be a wonderful person who spends the bulk of his time working toward the betterment of humanity.

    That said... what you posted is the worst type of message board post that there is.

    Why?

    Because you say it with complete conviction despite the fact that you're entirely wrong. Sam put up his best numbers in the Rams' 2 wins and their 7 point loss to Atlanta. There was little, if any, garbage time in those games.

    I have seen nothing this season that would suggest to me that Sam is our future... if you have, maybe you should schedule a visit your local optometrist for an eye check up
    I have seen nothing that would suggest to me that your perception is any better than anyone else's, so I think I'll hold off on the eye test.
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    Re: The curious case of Sam Bradford

    Quote Originally Posted by emuen View Post
    Some of these stats aren't necessarily indicators of good QB play, and really the sample size is still to small to talk about QB rating. Did a little calculation, if Bradford had thrown one more incompletion doing the entire season, he would fall two spots on the QB rating list (Behind Tannehill and RGIII). That can't be the best way to evaluate QB's
    No, the best way is to allow random fans to make conclusory statements based upon their observations.

    By the way, what would Sam's rating be if Jared Cook scores a TD instead of fumbling at the 1 yard line? (See... it works in both ways).
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    Re: The curious case of Sam Bradford

    Okay, I'll bite...

    Quote Originally Posted by punahou View Post
    Wilson had MLynch, but what has who else is around him? Defense? well.... they arent blocking, running and catching for him.
    He plays on a team with two Pro Bowl players on the O line, and a Pro Bowl RB. As a result, he throws less than any starting QB in the NFL. Its a lot easier when you throw when you wish to, rather than when you have to.

    Kaepernick has.... WRs? none that scare defenses Crabtree? Only Gore and Davis are there. Boldin showed up for 1 game. Perhaps it his other playmaking ability that keeps opposing Ds honest and allows the rest of his cast to produce.
    He also has 2 Pro Bowl O linemen, but without Crabtree, his numbers are below Sam's in most passing categories.

    RG3- who did he have last year? no one to speak of. Again its his playmaking ability that carried that team.
    Yeah... it had nothing to do with the fact that he had the #2 rusher in the NFL last year.

    Luck- Reggie Wayne- thats it. His Oline was said to be horrible, yet he wills plays to happen.
    A HOF WR... that's it. I think Luck is better than Sam, but he's hardly lacking in a supporting cast.

    Rivers-- yep hes a great QB since he came in. He consitently produces no matter if has or doesnt have talent around him.
    He's had plenty of talent around him... and as it has reduced, his numbers have gone down (his passer rating in 2011, 2012 was in the 80s)
    Last edited by AvengerRam; -10-07-2013 at 02:19 PM.
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    Re: The curious case of Sam Bradford

    This is why arguing about Sam is such a waste of time here or on any message board...

    Sam is a mid-tier starting NFL QB right now, with the potential to be a second tier. That means he can be as good as many guys who have won Super Bowls (Joe Flacco, Eli Manning), even if he'll never be a first tier (elite) QB (P.Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Brady).

    He is not, as some would like to label him, a "bad QB" or a "bust." Is he disappointing as a first overall pick? I suppose, though he's a heck of a lot better than Jamarcus Russell or David Carr (and at least as good as Alex Smith).

    If you think the Rams should get rid of him (which, right now, would kill their salary cap) and roll the dice on a college QB (and, no, the Rams aren't getting Teddy Bridgewater), you are entitled to your opinion.

    I understand fully, though, why the Rams' front office and coaching staff disagrees with you.
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    Re: The curious case of Sam Bradford

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramhearder View Post
    The comparative stats stance doesn't work anymore. His numbers are inflated from trash time for one. How many first quarter yards ad TD's does Sam have this season? Oh that's right... when the opposing defenses let up with large leads he can find his numbers. Wow. I think the debate is not what Sam has done, it is what he hasn't done. That would be win, lead, hit the open targets, show the "it" factor. I have seen nothing this season that would suggest to me that Sam is our future... if you have, maybe you should schedule a visit your local optometrist for an eye check up
    The comparative stats stance doesn't work anymore, if you are a non Bradford supporter. Right, when this year is over it's going to be hard to say Bradford is the problem when he has monster numbers.

    I do like how you try and discredit the stats, that's was actually pretty funny.

    Sam Bradford. In the first half, he was 12-20 for 128 yards and two touchdowns with no interceptions – a passer rating of 112.1.
    Man he really knows how to pad those numbers in garbage time.

    Just think once Tavon starts shaking lose the number will only get better.

    Here is a stat for you and I had to eat crow on this because I'm not the biggest Pettis fan. But Pettis has more TD then....

    Larry Fitzgerald
    A.J. Green
    DeSean Jackson
    Anquan Boldin
    Dwayne Bowe
    Randall Cobb

    And he has as many as

    Victor Cruz
    Calvin Johnson
    Demaryius Thomas

    Just think IF Pettis is ready to take the next step. I mean this will really make Bradford numbers inflated.

    Cook has yet to bring it, lets hope he does not get rolling,,,,
    Last edited by Rambos; -10-07-2013 at 03:18 PM.
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    Re: The curious case of Sam Bradford

    My stance: The vast majority of Rams fans have made up their mind about Bradford in one way or another. One side will pull out all the stops to defend him, the other will use anything they can to criticize him.

    Yeah, he's not a world beater at the QB position. And it sucks that some of the guys we're using as a measuring stick (Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers) are all probably going to be first-ballot Hall of Fame guys when they hang up the cleats. I think some fans have a hard time accepting that not every QB (1st overall pick or undrafted free agent) is going to be amazing in every game.

    Remember: It took both Brady and Brees 7 years of starting in the NFL to throw 30 TDs. Provided he keeps up the pace, Sam will be doing that in his 4th year. Stats don't tell the whole story, but he's done enough to prove he isn't the problem. Our "young and fierce" defense that's allowing 28 points per game, however...
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    Re: The curious case of Sam Bradford

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramendola16 View Post
    My stance: The vast majority of Rams fans have made up their mind about Bradford in one way or another. One side will pull out all the stops to defend him, the other will use anything they can to criticize him.
    Wrong... you can't put that label on me. Look at my posts from the last 2 weeks. I've criticized Sam a lot. But there is a difference between criticizing a guy and burying him.

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    Re: The curious case of Sam Bradford

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Wrong... you can't put that label on me. Look at my posts from the last 2 weeks. I've criticized Sam a lot. But there is a difference between criticizing a guy and burying him.
    Correct. Thankfully, there's always a golden mean. But there's no doubt that the spectrum stretches pretty far both ways.

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