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  1. #16
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Day of Reckoning for Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris58 View Post
    Well if missing training camp is no big deal, then why have it?
    You've misunderstood my point if you think I'm saying it's no big deal. I'm talking about a specific situation for a specific player. You're apparently trying to take that and apply it to all players by asking why have camp at all, which doesn't work. Clearly not every player on the Rams is in Jackson's situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris58 View Post
    And just because Sanders and Martz are similar in style doesn't mean that they are the same
    I don't believe I said they were the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris58 View Post
    Let's not minimize JAX absence just because you support his holdout.
    I'm not minimizing his absence just because I understand his decision to hold out; I simply don't think the factors brought up as to how he's hurting the team are that significant or incredibly accurate.


  2. #17
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Day of Reckoning for Jackson

    Just as a follow up, here's an excerpt from a Jim Thomas article that touches upon the point I've been making here...

    "I would love to have him here," coach Scott Linehan said Monday. "But I also know that he's doing what it's going to take to be prepared when he does come. He has a great grasp of what we're doing. And we want him with his mind totally focused on what we need to do this season when he gets here. That day's going to be soon. I've never put a date on it."

    Linehan said he might be more concerned if it were a rookie missing extended camp time, or someone who was totally unfamiliar with the system.

    Even though the Rams have a new offense under coordinator Al Saunders, Jackson was exposed to it in 2004 and '05 under Mike Martz, and he did participate in the offseason program and organized team activities this spring.
    The article also states that Jackson "has the team's daily practice scripts, so he can follow at least mentally with what the Rams are doing each day." And again, he's texting Linehan and his fellow players to stay in touch.

  3. #18
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    Re: Day of Reckoning for Jackson

    If Jackson isn't hurt by his hold out - why are the Rams practicing any of their veterans? Bulger, Holt and Pace all played in this offense the same as Jackson so is it idiotic for them to be practicing at this point if there is no benefit to be seen?

    Obviously Jackson is falling behind to some extent. Plus part of the reason the team moved to Wisconsin is to build the bond between team mates. Jackson isn't partaking in any of that. He's holding himself out as above the rest of the players who showed up to camp. I'm not sure how that's not considered hurting the team.

    And with the contract and salary cap, any more money Jackson receives in 2008 will come directly out of the pockets of one or more of the veteran team mates. If you were one of those guys how happy would you be with his hold out?

  4. #19
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    Re: Day of Reckoning for Jackson

    Here's what I think a lot of people are missing. Under the CBA Steven will become a restricted Free Agent, but I believe that also means the Franchise Tag can't be used on him, I believe you have to be unrestricted. I could be wrong but I haven't found anything that states otherwise.

    Being that the case he's free to go get a deal from anyone, and the Rams have the right to match it. The problem is the fact that a team can put wording or make the deal hard for the Rams to match. Let's say on simple terms the offering team offers a 30 mil guarantee, do the Rams match it? if they do it was a pissing match they didn't have to play because they could have given him the 20 mil and been done.

    This I don't think will work in the Rams favor, the fact the SJ is being very quiet on his end says he knows of a little unkown rule that our front office doesn't know about, or that he has something up his sleeve they aren't expecting. My pops always told me, "beware the quiet guy in the room, you never know what he's capable of". SJ is awfully quiet.

  5. #20
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Day of Reckoning for Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by RebelYell View Post
    If Jackson isn't hurt by his hold out - why are the Rams practicing any of their veterans?
    Holt and Pace probably don't need it when it comes to the system. Pace held out a couple of years right until the final pre-season game and still played well. Holt could run these routes like the back of his hand. Pace at least needs the work coming off of two significant injuries the last two years.

    As for Bulger, he's the playcaller and the guy who is going to be delivering the ball through the air, so he can work on establishing a rhythm and timing with his targets (Holt, Bennett, McMichael, etc).

    I would contend it takes much more work and practice for a QB to get the timing down with his receivers than it takes for a RB to work effectively behind an offensive line.

    Quote Originally Posted by RebelYell View Post
    He's holding himself out as above the rest of the players who showed up to camp. I'm not sure how that's not considered hurting the team.
    I've yet to see any indication that Rams players feel Jackson is putting himself above the team. The other players, based on the comments made to the media, understand this is a business decision and part of the game. Fans, in my opinion, need to catch up with what Rams players already understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by RebelYell View Post
    And with the contract and salary cap, any more money Jackson receives in 2008 will come directly out of the pockets of one or more of the veteran team mates.
    Umm, I really don't think that's the case. Paying Jackson more money in a contract extension does not mean other Rams are robbed of the money they're due.

    Quote Originally Posted by jjigga3000 View Post
    Here's what I think a lot of people are missing. Under the CBA Steven will become a restricted Free Agent, but I believe that also means the Franchise Tag can't be used on him, I believe you have to be unrestricted. I could be wrong but I haven't found anything that states otherwise.
    Not quite. Check out this article.

  6. #21
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    Re: Day of Reckoning for Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I've yet to see any indication that Rams players feel Jackson is putting himself above the team. The other players, based on the comments made to the media, understand this is a business decision and part of the game. Fans, in my opinion, need to catch up with what Rams players already understand.
    Exactly. If the players and coaches, the ones directly affected by the situation, don't see what Jackson is doing as damaging to the team at this point, neither should the fans.

  7. #22
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    Re: Day of Reckoning for Jackson

    Lot of people were upset Jackson didn't play enough in the preseason last year because he looked rough in the first game. Guess preseason isn't important and camp is worthless. Nice to know.

  8. #23
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    Re: Day of Reckoning for Jackson

    I've yet to see any indication that Rams players feel Jackson is putting himself above the team. The other players, based on the comments made to the media, understand this is a business decision and part of the game. Fans, in my opinion, need to catch up with what Rams players already understand.

    I posted this on another thread, but Nick, you can't believe that the players and staff haven't been "coached" about what to say. A few poorly stated comments by anyone other than Zygmunt could sink negotiations. And he may do it himself if history is any judge.

    Umm, I really don't think that's the case. Paying Jackson more money in a contract extension does not mean other Rams are robbed of the money they're due.

    Nick, I think the insinuation is that if the cap number is in jeopardy in future years, that the Rams will go to other vets and ask if they will re-negotiate their contracts so that there is some payroll breathing room.

  9. #24
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    Re: Day of Reckoning for Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by RebelYell View Post
    Guess preseason isn't important and camp is worthless. Nice to know.
    Simple question - who said this? You seem to be presenting this as if someone made those claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris58 View Post
    I posted this on another thread, but Nick, you can't believe that the players and staff haven't been "coached" about what to say.
    So instead, we should believe something that there's no evidence to support, that Jackson's teammates feel he's putting himself above the team and in the wrong?

    That makes little sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris58 View Post
    Nick, I think the insinuation is that if the cap number is in jeopardy in future years, that the Rams will go to other vets and ask if they will re-negotiate their contracts so that there is some payroll breathing room.
    And yet people wonder why players hold out for more money.

    If the CBA is not extended, then my understanding is that there will be no cap. So it wouldn't matter. Even if the CBA is renewed, I doubt the Jackson contract is going to put the Rams into cap crisis mode. They've known for a while that they're going to have to resign him, and the general value shouldn't have come as a surprise.

    If resigning Jackson puts the Rams in a tough spot financially with other players, that's the Rams' fault for not adequately planning ahead, not Jackson's fault for getting a fair-market deal for his services.

  10. #25
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    Re: Day of Reckoning for Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    So instead, we should believe something that there's no evidence to support, that Jackson's teammates feel he's putting himself above the team and in the wrong?

    That makes little sense to me.



    And yet people wonder why players hold out for more money.
    You imply facts and, when challenged for your idea, say that no one ever said that while refuting those who take exception to your point of view.

    If you choose to believe what the players say as undeniably true that's okay. Just let me have the opinion that not all that is said by anyone is true. To wit: "I never had sexual relations with that woman, Monica Lewinski."

    It's the current CBA that has created the cap and caused the subsequent renegotiations as teams try to keep a decent product on the field. So it is possible that all this is working out in the player's favor per Gene Upshaw.

    I take a team perspective versus a player perspective on this. Players will come and go; coaches will come and go; owners will come and go; but the Rams will always be here. Therefore, when push comes to shove, I am for the team every time over the personal interests of a particular player.

  11. #26
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    Re: Day of Reckoning for Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    Looks like Nick and I were thinking some of the same things at the same time.
    Hey -
    Great minds...
    "the Heart Lies and the Head Plays Tricks with us, but the Eyes See True".

  12. #27
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    Re: Day of Reckoning for Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris58 View Post
    You imply facts and, when challenged for your idea, say that no one ever said that while refuting those who take exception to your point of view.
    What I'm refuting is people who take my opinion about one specific player in a specific situation and try to apply it to all players through a generalization to make my point look ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris58 View Post
    If you choose to believe what the players say as undeniably true that's okay.
    I recognize the possibility of them giving the company line, but I'm certainly not going to believe some random theory about them being upset about Jackson's actions when there's no actual evidence to support it.

  13. #28
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    Re: Day of Reckoning for Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    What I'm refuting is people who take my opinion about one specific player in a specific situation and try to apply it to all players through a generalization to make my point look ridiculous.
    Don't include me in your generalization. I don't think any of your opinions are ridiculous. You and I just see this differently. What you and I actually know about this holdout situation is nada. Therefore it call comes down to opinion. So if you choose to justify SJ on his holdout that's fine. I'm of the mind that he has a contract and should honor it.

  14. #29
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    Re: Day of Reckoning for Jackson

    I am surprised by how many people are surprised by his holdout! I was more shocked when the Rams actually had everyone in camp for once, what was it, last year?

    I am sure the researchers will look into this, but it sure seems to me as a long time follower of this team, they always try to take a hardball approach with the players and usually have a hold out every other year.

    I gave up a long time ago be upset about it, it's just business. And yes it is a breach of contract, and even that is an every day occurrence in the business world. To me, if he gets there good, if not we move forward.

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