*DEVELOPING STORY* - NFL Finds Saints, Gregg Williams Used "Bounty" Program

[GreatestShow99]

First Georgia offing Carroll, then Leonard Little, that idiot throat slashing assistant in the FO, and now this. Yet, they have the nerve to drain the city of STL bone dry for a new stadium ? Good effin riddance. This franchise is dirty. Plain and simple, and Fisher is the king of kings of dirtiness.

[Fortuninerhater]

I don't even know why getting paid by your own teammates for forcing fumbles or intercepting passes is even part of this story. Maybe if we had a similar system, Ron Bartell would learn how to catch.

However, injuring players on purpose certainly has no place in the NFL. And I anticipate a lengthy suspension and hefty fine for Greg Williams.

[Curly Horns]

I wonder how Mr. Four Pillars reacted to this when he found out about it, back in January, while meeting with the saints players and coaches?

[PeoriaRam]

Theres a video on NFL.com of Sharper talking about the whole situation. He stated that he did get paid for some big INT's and plays that he and others made. He and the DB's (example) would all put $100 into a pot, and whoever made the first big play of that game would get that reward. I can almost guarantee you this happens in 34 out of 32 locker rooms. The intent to injury? He said he's never played by or heard that rule, or that he ever got paid for hurting someone.

Congratulations. You just ignored my point about how we shouldn't take him at his word because he can only benefit himself by lying, as there is no consequence for getting caught.

[PeoriaRam]

From Bucky Brooks :

"

The news of the New Orleans Saints operating a "bounty" program from 2009 to 2011 under defensive coordinator Gregg Williams has created quite a stir since the news broke Friday, but I will let you in on a dirty little secret: The practice is commonplace throughout the league.

While the salacious details of the "pay for performance" program certainly will draw the ire of Commissioner Roger Goodell, the act of players providing cash bonuses to their teammates for impact plays has been a part of the league's subculture for years.

From my rookie season in 1994 to my final year as a scout in 2007, I was associated with several teams that incorporated various forms of the "bounty" program cited in New Orleans. Most of those bonuses were tied to sacks, interceptions, forced fumbles and return touchdowns, but big hits and knockout shots were also included in the payouts. The financial incentives were established by players prior to the season, typically within a position group, and the payouts ranged from a few hundred dollars to $1,500 at the max.

The money used to make the payments came from fines for various mental errors on the practice field or in games, and the group would designate which players were worthy of receiving the gifts. The intent of the program was to promote accountability for players for their play on the field, while also adding a competitive element to the group.

As silly as it sounds to those on the outside, the thought of collecting a few hundred bucks from your teammates for a big play provides a bit of motivation for a player already cashing huge checks for his performance. Players have been known to shout "cha-ching" (mimicking the sound of a cash register) on the field following turnovers, and the byproduct of utilizing such a "kitty" program is better camaraderie among the group.

In addressing the damning allegations of placing bounties on opposing players, I would like to believe the Saints instituted policies that rewarded defenders for hard but clean shots that separated ball carriers from the ball. These "knockout" shots, as we called them, were not inflicted with the intent to injure, but rather to establish a physical tone that created hesitation and fear in the minds of offensive players venturing across the middle of the field.

Offensive players might scoff at the notion of intimidation impacting the game, but there is something to putting teeth-rattling collisions on tape that alters the way future opponents play the game. If you don't believe me, look at the way receivers short arm balls with defenders in close proximity, or how quarterbacks flinch with rushers bearing down on them. Simply put, big hits matter in this game, and defensive coaches and players overemphasize the importance of physicality.

To illustrate that point, I will point to an example from my time with the Kansas City Chiefs during which we routinely would reward players with framed pictures of their big hits in team meetings. This certainly didn't promote dirty play or encourage defenders to play beyond the whistle, but receiving recognition for a bone-jarring hit definitely was motivating.

The New Orleans Saints won Super Bowl XLIV behind a hard-nosed, aggressive defense that specialized in creating takeaways and pummeling opponents, and Williams' "pay for performance" system is a time-honored tradition in locker rooms across the league.

Setting aside the issue that the league and its attitude towards those hits is changing....

How many of those bounties were bankrolled by a convicted felon who got busted for scalping NFL tickets and selling counterfeit jerseys. Because Williams' was.

[r8rh8rmike]

Setting aside the issue that the league and its attitude towards those hits is changing....

How many of those bounties were bankrolled by a convicted felon who got busted for scalping NFL tickets and selling counterfeit jerseys. Because Williams' was.

This story gets more and more twisted and bizarre by the minute. Allegedly, there are emails that link the convicted felon (Reggie Bush's former marketing agent) you referenced directly to Payton, with details of payments for bounties. Who knows what is true or not, but the cat is out of the bag and this is shaping up to be a huge scandal. It sounds like the NFL has all this information and much more. Yikes!

[PeoriaRam]

I'd also like to toss this out there for people who say this is the attitude they want out of our defense.

Supposedly there was one time back in the days of the "Fearsome Foursome" where the coaches did order the Foursome to knock a player out of the game.

The Foursome were so disgusted by the orders that they flat out refused to do so.

[r8rh8rmike]

More damming news from Mike Freeman of CBS Sports:

An NFL memo to all of its clubs details yet more of what is becoming one of the biggest sports scandals in recent NFL history. Details of the memo were obtained by me from a team official. Here is a summary of what parts of the memo states.

Funds for the Saints bounty system, the memo states, weren't solely contributed by players. People close to the Saints team contributed as well. One was a felon: Michael Ornstein.

Ornstein was once Reggie Bush's marketing agent and is close friends with Saints coach Sean Payton. Ornstein spent time in prison for fraud and the Saints -- somewhat -- have cut ties with Ornstein.

But in 2009 Ornstein was a fixture around the Saints site. The NFL memo to teams state that then Ornstein pledged $10,000 towards the quarterback bounty in 2009.

Then, on at least two occasions in 2011, Ornstein again contributed to a bounty fund on an opposing quarterback.

The NFL memo also states there was a bounty paper trail. Ornstein put details of the bounty system in an e-mail to Payton, according to the NFL memo. In that e-mail, Ornstein committed $5,000 towards yet another bounty.

This just gets worse and worse for the Saints.

[MoonJoe]

I think integrity is important in everything we do and while I believe in hard hitting in football, I can't fathom for a moment risking a mans life or permanently disabling him for a win or a championship. I have also thought for sometime now that tackling and or hitting techniques need to be reviewed because of that type of mentality, especially for defenseless players. I have never played organized football, but I have played a thousand hours of basketball and I have used my 6'3" 240-260lb body to move people and to secure position. I have even fouled some players pretty damn hard when they tried to do the same to one of my teammates to send a message to them that their behavior will result in a negative response, but that was to keep things on a level playing field if you will. But to financially gain from seriously injuring someone now moves you from athlete to thug and I have no respect for someone like that. If I did, I would be a Raiders fan.

[gap]

I have to say, it is something like this that I was not happy with Fisher becoming our head coach, and I agree that we need to cut ties with Williams.

But I have to ask these two questions. Do you think this would have come to light if the cheatroits needed a DC, and they hired Williams? I would also like to know if this "program" was used by the cheatroits in SB XXXVI. The way they were hitting our receivers (before and after the catch) sure looks like it. Assuming (knowing) this "program" was used cheatroits, do you believe the league would allow it to see the light of day?

For the post about Goodell not being around for spygate... YES he was. He was the one to burn the evidence so no one would know how far back, or in depth it was.


gap

[Fat Pang]

Unless it's determined that there was no intent to injure, I don't see how Williams can survive this.

I think that he will survive unless its determined that there was an intent to injure.

I'd be rather irritated if I was Williams and I was subject to a different burden of proof to any accused in a common-law courtroom.

And again, I've yet to see anyone categorically state and be able to prove that there was an intent to injure, as soon as I see that my opinion of Williams will slide rapidly from decidedly neutral to negative.

[PeoriaRam]

I think that he will survive unless its determined that there was an intent to injure.

I'd be rather irritated if I was Williams and I was subject to a different burden of proof to any accused in a common-law courtroom.

And again, I've yet to see anyone categorically state and be able to prove that there was an intent to injure, as soon as I see that my opinion of Williams will slide rapidly from decidedly neutral to negative.

I don't think you get to ride the cart unless you were injured, and here is Williams offering $1000 for making players ride the cart.

[r8rh8rmike]

I think that he will survive unless its determined that there was an intent to injure.

I'd be rather irritated if I was Williams and I was subject to a different burden of proof to any accused in a common-law courtroom.

And again, I've yet to see anyone categorically state and be able to prove that there was an intent to injure, as soon as I see that my opinion of Williams will slide rapidly from decidedly neutral to negative.

It sounds like the NFL has plenty of statements from Redskins and Saints players about payments for knocking opponents out of games, as well as emails to Sean Payton from a convicted felon referencing funds to do exactly that.

As far as "was no intent to injure", or "was an intent to injure", they're probably synonymous as far as the NFL is concerned.

[NJ Ramsfan1]

I can certainly envision a fine and even a loss of a couple of draft picks by the Saints, but I cannot see the NFL take the unprecedented step of a lengthy suspension for a coach (Williams) who was involved in something that is more commonplace than many would like to admit- as distasteful as it may be.

We've had our share of sh**birds in the past- Lawrence Phillips (jail), Darryl Henley (long jail sentence) and Leonard Little (killed a woman), so let's not get crazy and compare Gregg Williams to the Devil incarnate. Should he have used better judgment? No question. He was incredibly stupid for giving this "bounty" system his seal of approval. But Buddy Ryan, Jerry Glanville and scores of others survived for a long time- as head coaches, no less- after doing a heckuva lot more.

I think it's important to make a very specific distinction between "aggressive defense" and "dirty defense". An aggressive, attacking defense in which coaches encourage guys to hit offensive opponents as hard as possible within the boundaries of the rules to discourage them from venturing into their territory is perfectly acceptable. This is football, not ballet. If you find this offensive, don't watch football. "Dirty" defense- in which one is encouraged to maim, cripple or incapacitate a guy by purposely going for his knees, his head or neck- is NEVER acceptable. Players must know and understand the difference, and it's important a coach make the distinction for the players. This is where Williams should be ashamed of himself.

And not for nothing- HOW STUPID is running a bounty system? Do you NOT think it would eventually be exposed? That players who were a part of this who have since left their current team might some day blow the whistle- as several current ex-Saints have done? Just mindless.

[Fat Pang]

I don't think you get to ride the cart unless you were injured, and here is Williams offering $1000 for making players ride the cart.

In which case, I have to look at whether its possible to put someone 'on the cart' with a hit committed with a perfectly legal intention and within the rules which you are then subsequently rewarded for (which is what Bucky Brooks alludes to) or whether you are saying to your playing roster 'I don't care how you do it but by fair means or foul I want you to injure those players and get them off the field and I'll pay you for it.'

There's a difference here and again, I haven't yet seen any evidence offered that the latter was the case. The first is 'performance-related pay' and if its not widespread, not commonplace and not part of an NFL sub-culture ( however much we personally might not like it) then this is a story. The latter is 'head-hunting' and wrong and something I have no time for but again I'm sorry I haven't seen it illustrated to a compelling degree but if its in the NFL dossier, which sounds comprehensive, I'm sure we will.

As far as the convicted felon angle is concerned, I'm sure that's an issue for Payton and the Saints rather than Williams per se.

Is it possible to knock someone into the stands with a perfectly legal hit and them then be unable to continue?

Yes.