Did the Pats cheat to win Super Bowl 36

[RamWraith]

It took me over a year to watch the game. I first heard about all the bush ref calling shortly after the Super Bowl and took it as sore losing fans just complaining. I never really paid attention to it until I re-watched the game. IT WAS BAD! I wish we could see other angles just to see what is all happening on the field.

Nick, i hear you loud and clear and agree, and thats why i tried to point out in my post that it was the failure of the officials to makes the correct calls, rather than the clutching and grabbing per se, that changed the game.

I was at the game and have never watched the replay. Live, you get a very different perspective. Intellectually, it would be nice to watch the tape at least once and see how bad the rule breaking actually was, but i just cant bring myself to do it. The pain of reliving that experience is bad enough in my dreams at night, let alone actually watching the tape.

general counsel

[r8rh8rmike]

Games have a flow. If the flow is not going your way, you have to try and change it or adapt to be effective within it. In the case of SB36, should the Rams have HAD to make the adjustment to counter the officiating? In theory, no, but in reality, yes. Right or wrong, the officiating was at the very least consistent. It was clear to Bilichik what he could get away with, so he took advantage. If it was clear to Martz, he didn't try to lobby against it or try to adapt to it. Fatal errors that resulted in the most humiliating loss in Ram history.

Trying to deal with it in the post game news conference does no good and comes off looking like sour grapes.

[txramsfan]

The way our offense was set up that year, I don't think making any adjustments would have helped on that side of the ball.

Maybe on defense we should have done exactly what the Pats did. However, mistakes beat the Rams. Nothing else.

[Curly Horns]

Ferter, did you have to look those rules up or did you actually have them memorized?

Where did I put my current copy of the NEC, because I need to look something up, just to clarify my memory?

Seriously though....

It is interesting that you bring up my memorization skills GC. Those same skills came into question yesterday when I posted the following ditty.


Dead Skunk
( Loudon Wainwright III )
Crossin' the highway late last night
He shoulda looked left and he shoulda looked right
He didn't see the station wagon car
The skunk got squashed and there you are!
You got yer
Dead skunk in the middle of the road
Dead skunk in the middle of the road
You got yer dead skunk in the middle of the road
Stinkin' to high Heaven!
Take a whiff on me, that ain't no rose!
Roll up yer window and hold yer nose
You don't have to look and you don't have to see
'Cause you can feel it in your olfactory
You got yer
Dead skunk in the middle of the road
Dead skunk in the middle of the road
You got yer dead skunk in the middle of the road
Stinkin' to high Heaven!
Yeah you got yer dead cat and you got yer dead dog
On a moonlight night you got yer dead toad frog
Got yer dead rabbit and yer dead raccoon
The blood and the guts they're gonna make you swoon!
You got yer
Dead skunk in the middle of the road
Dead skunk in the middle of the road
You got yer dead skunk in the middle of the road
Stinkin' to high Heaven!
C'mon stink!
You got it!
It's dead, it's in the middle
Dead skunk in the middle!
Dead skunk in the middle of the road
Stinkin' to high heaven!
All over the road, technicolor man!
Oh, you got pollution
It's dead, it's in the middle
And it's stinkin' to high, high Heaven!

[Curly Horns]

As an innocent bystander here, some of the things that are being suggested are quite hilarious. Man this was one hell of an orchestrated fix by the refs and the pats.


:tongue:

[coy bacon]

Hey, we got whupped. We lost. Yeah, it sucks, it always sucks to lose. Why waste your tears crying over spilled milk? The Fat Lady has sung. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Forgetaboutit. It ain't cheatin if ya don't get caught?? Lots of blame to go around, in the end, the score remains the same.

[evil disco man]

Hey, we got whupped. We lost. Yeah, it sucks, it always sucks to lose. Why waste your tears crying over spilled milk? The Fat Lady has sung. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Forgetaboutit. It ain't cheatin if ya don't get caught?? Lots of blame to go around, in the end, the score remains the same.

Agreed. It makes for interesting conversation, but it doesn't make me feel any better about the game.

[general counsel]

Ferter, have you sold the recording rights to that tune? Is it set to the melody of Go Rams Go, the hot song recorded in 1999 by the 'Mers (which cost me a few bucks to buy on ebay?).

The memory skills are indeed impressive, now if you only knew all thirty one verses of Rappers Delight by the Sugar Hill Gang, i would really be amazed.

Sign the Big Man.

general counsel

[Curly Horns]

Speaking of that dead skunk song GC, That dude must have had a serious hankerin for some road kill....LOL

However, mistakes beat the Rams. Nothing else.

And therin lies the essence of that Rams team. They were prone to the turnover.

[Nick]

If it was clear to Martz, he didn't try to lobby against it or try to adapt to it. Fatal errors that resulted in the most humiliating loss in Ram history.

What kind of adjustments do you suggest?

From a Pittsburgh Post Gazette article: When the Patriots beat the Rams in Super Bowl 36, Rams superstar Marshall Faulk was quoted afterward as saying: "I mean [linebacker Willie McGinest] tackled me. I was trying to run to the flat and he tackled me. But that was going on all day, for the most part. Every time I released, I got held. I got pushed and I got grabbed. It just so happened that we were on a part of the field where it's condensed and the line judge had an opportunity to see it."

Faulk was talking about the one call that went against McGinest, who said: "I'm not the referee, so I don't know if it was holding or not. I played him the same way all game."

Clearly trying to swing out to Faulk in the flat wasn't working at all either. He was getting manhandled. So do we tighten up and go with the running game? How do you know Martz wasn't trying some things to adjust or counter it, and they just weren't working that well? Look at the third quarter of the game. The Rams were down 14-3 and on their second offensive possession of the second half, they rushed Faulk four straight times and were driving down the field. Then, Warner throws an INT, the Pats get three more points, and the Rams are down 14 going into the fourth quarter. It doesn't seem like they were in a position to continue feeding Faulk the ball at that point.

Maybe on defense we should have done exactly what the Pats did.

The Patriot defense was designed specifically around this kind of play. They've practiced it, they've instructed their players in it, and they execute it well. What was the quote by Belichick said after word on the emphasis got out?

The Rams defense didn't have that luxury -- it's not a part of their game. It's hard to tell what would have happened if Martz told his defense to go out and do the same thing, but without a season worth of experience with it and coaching that focused on being able to pull it off, I doubt the Rams would have been as proficient at it as the Pats were.

To say that mistakes were the only thing that beat the Rams is incorrect, IMO. A lot of things added up to a loss, and if you take even one of them away, the outcome would probably have been different. And one of those things is officiating, which SHOULD have been fair and proper. It wasn't.

An excellent quote from Martz on the topic: "Is that why we lost that game?'' Martz said. "Probably not. Would (the new rule emphasis) have affected it? I don't know. The point is, there still needs to be attention in this area.''

In the end, it's all speculation as to what exactly cost the Rams the game. Clearly, there are a number of factors that were all important. I think the point I'm trying to make is that it certainly would have been a different game had the rules actually been inforced, as they should have been.



Sources:

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/pat...=13939&format= (good article)

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04023/264687.stm

[coy bacon]

Guys, ya know how this conversation sounds? Sounds like nighner.

Can you imagine the digs a Pat's fan would be giving us for this? We all knows things would be different, if, well, if things were different! But they weren't.

We've all tasted the bitterness of defeat. We'll taste them again no doubt. But we've also enjoyed the wine of victory, some peeps can't say that.

[Curly Horns]

It is my opinion that the rules for use of hands have some room built-in for interpretation by the refs. I believe they have an all-star crew of refs that do the SB game and these guys usually don't stray too far from the way they have called the games throughout the season. There is a fine line in this area of jamming and the constant use of hands for positioning by both the receivers and the DBs.

Guys, ya know how this conversation sounds? Sounds like nighner.

Can you imagine the digs a Pat's fan would be giving us for this? We all knows things would be different, if, well, if things were different! But they weren't.

We've all tasted the bitterness of defeat. We'll taste them again no doubt. But we've also enjoyed the wine of victory, some peeps can't say that.

Excellent Coy bacon!!....I couldn't have said it better myself

[RamsFanSam]

My ball & chain and I discussed this game at length.....many times. Did the Pats "push the limits"? Hell, yes! Did the officials ignore this? Hell, yes once again!
Our opinion was that the Pats won because it was "good for the country"...after all, a bunch of Patriots winning it all would be better than the Rams in a post 9-11 world, right?
I wish someone would investigate this to find out if there was monetary or political pressure on the officials to "ensure" the Pats win. I think there may be some dirty dealings turning up....

[RamMyrow]

Regardless of whether or not the Patriots cheated, they should all burn in hell.

They never should have made it past Oakland.

[r8rh8rmike]

Amen to that RamMyrow. When I was looking for tickets to SB36, I'll never forget a Raider fans comment on eBay - "you are bidding on these Super Bowl tickets because a referee doesn't know the difference between a fumble and an incomplete pass". Too funny.

The tragic thing was, I was ecstatic when the Pats beat the team I love to hate, but little did I know what horrible string of events would soon follow. Not too funny.