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  1. #1
    Mooselini's Avatar
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    Even after the win...we need change.

    I saw (actually heard through the radio) that we needed something to change. Offense. We need to constantly be making plays. It made me so mad that Bulger couldn't hit Holt.

    I don't know what the problem is any more. Is it the line? Is it Bulger? Receivers? What is it that can get this offense functioning?

    I know Cogs was a big problem on offense. The entire chat room went bonkers when Cogs caused that 15 yard penalty.

    I am for dumping Saunders at the end of the season. He is turning out to be a big failure for our Rams. If he's supposed to have this "almighty play book" why the hell not use it?

    We got our win. I couldn't be happier right now. I am so happy that we won, and I'm excited for next week when we play Dallas.

    However, the win won't come easy if we don't produce on offense. We need to get that problem resolved NOW.


  2. #2
    MoonJoe's Avatar
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    Re: Even after the win...we need change.

    I can't give any where near some of the great analysis others on this site do, but I can say after watching the game in person that the offense did a fairly decent job moving the ball. Especially considering the noise at FedEx. That was some of the loudest football I have ever heard! Now that we have dropped that one guy, Scott something, we have moved past a major hurdle. Let's see how they do now under Saunders and with the younger recievers in. Give it a little time for things to click and I think we may be ok.

    Joe
    "The disappointment of losing is huge!"

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  3. #3
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    Re: Even after the win...we need change.

    You know, I watched the Rams & Redskins game, then I watched the Cardinals vs Cowboys. Paying specific attention to the comparision between Marc Bulger and Kurt Warner and the way the lead their offenses.
    Marc's problem is with the intangables. He needs to a little more pep in his step. His body language is all wrong, half time he looks as if he's going through the motions. Now Kurt Warner on the other hand, Looks as if he can't wait to Burn your ass! It amazes me that the old man still has it! Kurt is not fast, but he does have quickness about him, He's quick onto the field, quick out of the huddle, quick to make the quick strike. That's the spark you need running your offense, keeping the defense off balanced.
    It's not all on Bulger, but he certainly needs to step up his game that has regressed.
    Last edited by dgr828; -10-12-2008 at 11:03 PM.
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  4. #4
    RAMFANRAIDERHATER's Avatar
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    Re: Even after the win...we need change.

    I too watched the game today. Although I had to go alone, no other Ram fan wanted to watch it with me. ...their loss, huh?

    Anyway, it wasn't so much a case of Bulger not hitting Holt, it was Holt not getting open. He NEVER got so much as one-step of seperation with his defender. He has no second gear and his patterns seem soft. At times, it seems like Bulger is trying to force the ball to Holt. And as for Marc, he was lucky he wasn't picked at least twice today.

    The play calling. ...how many ways can I say "awful"?

    How many times is Saunders going to go with a short pass when he's in third and long? Quick passes to Holt at the line of scrimmage with tight coverage ain't gettin' it. He doesn't have the speed nor the strength to break away from his defender, but they continue to go to the quick out. Not until late in the game, under desperation did they throw the ball deep. (oh yeah, and they completed it) Saunders is suppose to be a student of the Coryell system? I'm not seeing it.

    They had so many chances today to put the Redskins away, and didn't. They have one speed on the throttle, and that seems to be "idle".
    Faithful Rams fan since 1968

  5. #5
    TekeRam's Avatar
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    Re: Even after the win...we need change.

    dgr, if this win doesn't put some pep in Bulger's step, not much will. I'll agree that Bulger seems hesitant, but I think that's because he doesn't trust his offensive line. And, in my opinion, that is valid. We don't have a great offensive line anymore. Having not seen what Greco and Schunening(did I actually spell that right?) can do, I think we need a whole new offensive line, save left guard. Yes, we have Pace, but he won't be able to play much longer, as the injuries keep htting him. He's great if he's in, but he worries me.

    Barron is mostly fine other than his penalties. I would like to see how he plays inside at guard, personally. If Greco can play RT, great, move Barron inside of him.

    We have a good chance at picking high again this year, so let's grab a top left tackle prospect, maybe not in the first(as they won't start till Pace is gone), but in the 2nd at the latest. Our first pick can go towards a strong safety, cornerback, or linebacker prospect in my opinion.

    As for a center, I would actually look to see who is a free agent this year. A good veteran center can do wonders for a line. Anyone under 30-32 would be good for me. Give me a line leader more than a young stud. Otherwise, look for a center in the 3rd-4th with good upside, a chip on his shoulder, and a guy who graduated from a good school rather than a football factory. I want a brainy center.

    It all starts up front, and that's where we need to give our attention. Our D line is coming together nicely. Now it's time for our O line.

  6. #6
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    Re: Even after the win...we need change.

    To answer the original question:
    1a. Wide Recievers-during the "greatest show" days, we had 5 yes 5 speedy recievers!!!!! Now we only have "1" maybe 2 when Burton comes back. You have to have guys that can get down the field & get open. And a certain someone let Curtis go and Mr. Bruce.

    b. The O-line: even in the glory days the line wasn't great (althought from Center to left tackle we were solid) all across but when you have talent around them it covers up for alot.

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    UK Ramfan 83 is offline Registered User
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    Re: Even after the win...we need change.

    I would say that in the GSOT days the only burner we had was Az-Hakim.

    Bruce and Holt have never been genuine deep threats. Holt was quicker than Bruce because he was a lot younger. Ricky P wasn't anywhere near speedy, he just had great onfield smarts. Martz just made our guys look quick with his play designs.

    "If he's supposed to have this "almighty play book" why the hell not use it?"

    Saunders does.. He uses it to stand on so he can reach his paycheck on top of the filing cabinet in the office.

    Though he's been reportedly seen using it for dropping it into crystal clean spring water in order to turn it stagnent.
    Last edited by UK Ramfan 83; -10-13-2008 at 06:18 AM.

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    UK Ramfan 83 is offline Registered User
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    Re: Even after the win...we need change.

    (duplicate in error)

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    FIELD MARSHAL is offline Registered User
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    Re: Even after the win...we need change.

    When new tight end Fells is inserted intio line up, the passing game will improve .

  10. #10
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Even after the win...we need change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooselini View Post
    I saw (actually heard through the radio) that we needed something to change. Offense. We need to constantly be making plays. It made me so mad that Bulger couldn't hit Holt.
    Seeing it helps to understand what the problem was here. As RAMFANRAIDERHATER stated, Holt was rarely what you would call wide open for a pass. He failed to get much separation from Carlos Rogers.

    Off the top of my head from having watched the game, I counted one pass to Holt that would have been catchable had Bulger delivered a more accurate throw. However, I counted three passes from Bulger to Holt that were accurate that Holt should have come down with but didn't - one slant early in the game, one shot to the endzone from inside the 20, and one shot down the deep left sideline on the final drive.

    I understand Holt is probably seeing the coverage focus on him, seeing as that he's the only legitimately established receiving weapon out there. As Avery and others emerge, it might not be the case, but perhaps it is right now. That's one reason why Bulger needs to stop trying to force it to Holt when the play isn't there, as he did on I believe two occasions where he could have been intercepted.

    But at the same time, Torry Holt is arguably one of this team's top three offensive players. No doubt he's in the top five. He's the leader of this receiving corps, and he needs to make a better effort to come down with balls that are thrown his way in single coverage that he gets his hands on.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgr828 View Post
    Marc's problem is with the intangables.
    I see your larger point about his overall body language in and out of the huddle, and maybe that's something that a new head coach and winning mentality can change. But at the same time, I don't think anyone can really claim this guy doesn't have the intangables when on a critical third down he takes off on his own and dives for the first down, getting smashed in the process.

    I thought he looked more comfortable in the pocket this week, as he seemed to step into his throws and dodged pressure fairly well. He made a couple of bad reads but overall I thought he was solid. He's never been a rah-rah cheerleader kind of guy, so I think people need to stop expecting him to be that kind of leader. He leads in other ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by TekeRam View Post
    We don't have a great offensive line anymore.
    And sadly we really haven't had one in half a decade, at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by TekeRam View Post
    Barron is mostly fine other than his penalties. I would like to see how he plays inside at guard, personally. If Greco can play RT, great, move Barron inside of him.
    It doesn't sound as if Greco is a fit at tackle, and I don't think Barron has the strength or mentality to succeed at guard, to be honest. I do agree though that I'd like to see new starters or at the very least open competition at center, right guard, and right tackle next season.

    Quote Originally Posted by TekeRam View Post
    We have a good chance at picking high again this year, so let's grab a top left tackle prospect, maybe not in the first(as they won't start till Pace is gone), but in the 2nd at the latest. Our first pick can go towards a strong safety, cornerback, or linebacker prospect in my opinion.
    It's going to depend on where that first pick is, obviously. Right now it could be as early as third and as late as seventh based on the standings.

    If we have a shot at either Michael Oher or Eugene Monroe, we should take it. With either of those guys, we could go the Jonathan Ogden route and plug them in at guard - shifting Bell to the right side in the process - to give them some experience before eventually moving them outside to replace Pace.

    If we don't have a shot at either of those two lineman, or something happens between now and the draft that changes the line rankings where it's not a great choice at that point, then I agree we can continue to look defense with our first pick, again depending on where it is.

    Cornerback Malcolm Jenkins from Ohio State could be a legitimate top 5-10 selection and would hopefully give us a true #1 cornerback for the future. At linebacker, the two top prospects (Laurinaitis and Maualuga) both appear to project best to the inside. And we know Haslett is the one who seems to like Witherspoon at Mike. If Haslett isn't around any more, maybe that's not a concern. If he is, he might not want to replace Witherspoon inside. Or maybe he will if it means adding that kind of athlete, who knows. Wake Forest's Aaron Curry is another guy to keep an eye on at linebacker, and he seems to project outside. At strong safety, there aren't any great early options unless you consider Missouri's William Moore to be a candidate for the strong side.

    Quote Originally Posted by TekeRam View Post
    As for a center, I would actually look to see who is a free agent this year. A good veteran center can do wonders for a line. Anyone under 30-32 would be good for me. Give me a line leader more than a young stud. Otherwise, look for a center in the 3rd-4th with good upside, a chip on his shoulder, and a guy who graduated from a good school rather than a football factory. I want a brainy center.
    I absolutely agree we need help at center. Leckey was terrible yesterday, and his poor snaps really hurt a number of times. To think this team could have had Ryan Kalil instead of Brian Leonard in the second round two drafts ago. Kalil is now the starting center for the Carolina Panthers and, though the first five games this season, did not give up a sack.

    At this point I don't mind a veteran as a stop-gap, but we're also going to need a long term solution as well. Either way, I don't see the answer for the short or long term on the roster right now, especially if Linehan turns out to be right from a while back when he intimated that Fry is indeed more of a guard.

  11. #11
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    Re: Even after the win...we need change.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgr828 View Post
    You know, I watched the Rams & Redskins game, then I watched the Cardinals vs Cowboys. Paying specific attention to the comparision between Marc Bulger and Kurt Warner and the way the lead their offenses.
    Marc's problem is with the intangables. He needs to a little more pep in his step. His body language is all wrong, half time he looks as if he's going through the motions. Now Kurt Warner on the other hand, Looks as if he can't wait to Burn your ass! It amazes me that the old man still has it! Kurt is not fast, but he does have quickness about him, He's quick onto the field, quick out of the huddle, quick to make the quick strike. That's the spark you need running your offense, keeping the defense off balanced.
    It's not all on Bulger, but he certainly needs to step up his game that has regressed.
    He's just not the qb he used to be. We can sit here and over-analyze all day, but he's just not getting the job done. Whether it's Linehan, Olson or Saunders we see the same QB play. Washington has a good defense, but he threw into "quadruple" coverage twice! Should have had two picks on those. The guy has no confidence, doesn't have a good feel for the offense and unless the receiver is easy to see, wide open and the Oline gives him a perfect pocket he can't do much effectively. I'm still for putting in Green when needed.

  12. #12
    ManofGod's Avatar
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    Re: Even after the win...we need change.

    Quote Originally Posted by UK Ramfan 83 View Post
    I would say that in the GSOT days the only burner we had was Az-Hakim.

    Bruce and Holt have never been genuine deep threats. Holt was quicker than Bruce because he was a lot younger. Ricky P wasn't anywhere near speedy, he just had great onfield smarts. Martz just made our guys look quick with his play designs.

    "If he's supposed to have this "almighty play book" why the hell not use it?"

    Saunders does.. He uses it to stand on so he can reach his paycheck on top of the filing cabinet in the office.

    Though he's been reportedly seen using it for dropping it into crystal clean spring water in order to turn it stagnent.
    No, you have to remember we had:
    Bruce
    Holt
    Az-Hakim
    Horne

    All 4 ran 4.3 40's or better (ex.Hakim ran a low 4.2).
    Now we do not have that ability thus the offense we have can't be run to its full potential. If you watched the games like I did, you saw Holt & Hakim working deep and Bruce underneath with speed to go long. Proehl was the possession & key 3rd down guy.

  13. #13
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    Re: Even after the win...we need change.

    The amount of turnovers the last game isn't going to happen like that many times if at all this season. Both the offense and the defense need a hard look.

  14. #14
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    Re: Even after the win...we need change.

    A) Bulger needs time to develop chemistry with new targets. For years, he could rely on Holt, Bruce, and Curtis. When Bennett was in last year, it didn't look like he and Bulger were always on the same page. Now Bulger is learning to work with the young blood, who are still adjusting to the pro game themselves. The fact that Avery, Burton, and even Stanley have been hurt has probably slowed the development of that bond where the quarterback knows his receiver's capabilities and habits and vice versa.

    B) Saunders' play-calling is limited somewhat by what his personnel can do. I understand that they practiced a lot of stuff to the tight end when learning Al's offense, but I wonder if you can call the same plays for Klopfenstein that you would for Gonzalez, Cooley, or even McMichael. Kudos to Avery for the big play, but remember that they tried the same thing earlier in the game and Avery failed to adjust to the ball. If your deep threat doesn't run a simple go route correctly, you get back to trying to figure out what you can do with the guys based on what they can do right now. I think Avery is going to be fun to watch over the next few years, but while he's still learning, we won't necessarily be calling his number on stuff we might feel confident with a year or two from now.

    C) The offensive line really makes a difference in what kind of stuff you can call as well. What does our offensive line do really well? We're pretty good at letting defenders through. So we call a screen that asks them to do just that. I guess we're trying to play to our strengths!

  15. #15
    UK Ramfan 83 is offline Registered User
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    Re: Even after the win...we need change.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManofGod View Post
    No, you have to remember we had:
    Bruce
    Holt
    Az-Hakim
    Horne

    All 4 ran 4.3 40's or better (ex.Hakim ran a low 4.2).
    Now we do not have that ability thus the offense we have can't be run to its full potential. If you watched the games like I did, you saw Holt & Hakim working deep and Bruce underneath with speed to go long. Proehl was the possession & key 3rd down guy.
    Hi there,

    Yea I did watch the games, and don't disagree with what you have said completely. I'm sure BRUCE always said he was a 4.4 guy though. Either way that's still pretty good speed for a receiver but he was never your archetypal 'burner'. BRUCE's route running was among the best (If not the best) in the NFL and was what got him open most of the time.

    HOLT was pretty pacy @ 4.3 in his pomp, but again not a genuine 'straight line speed' deep threat like Steve SMITH, Raghib ISMAIL, etc.. That's what I was referring to..

    In Martz's system it was play design, the numerous deep crossing/delay routes etc, and pristine route running that formed the basis of our ariel success. As opposed to flat out 'now you see me now you don't' speed.

    I always thought that HAKIM worked mainly in the slot as well, but that's not to say he didn't used to get deep and score as he blatantly did (@ Detroit 1999)

    HORNE had some wheels as he acheived a fair bit on ST. But I didn't get to see him much on offence for obvious reasons, so can't judge his 'pay dirt' speed. Though I did see him catch a TD in the red zone when I travelled over to see the team play from the UK in 2000, Vs the whiners..

    All very much sadly missed days!

    Cheers

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