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Thread: Facts and the LA hype...

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    RamsFanSam's Avatar
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    Facts and the LA hype...

    Let's talk about Stan Kroenke for a minute.

    There's been a lot of hype about a small parcel of land he recently purchased in Inglewood, CA. This 60-acre irregularly shaped lot has caused the BBTLAR group to go into excitation overdrive...but WHY?

    Stan Kroenke owns AT LEAST 840,000 acres of land in the US alone - and more acreage around the world, including the largest cattle ranch in Canada. Yet, somehow, BBTLAR people have gone hyperactive because of the Tuscan villa styled home he owns in Malibu, taking that as a sure sign the Rams are moving to LA. Funny - he bought the home THREE YEARS after the Rams moved to St. Louis. Since that time, he has bought the most expensive home in Aspen, CO. Why isn't anyone claiming that is an omen that he's moving the Rams there? He also bought the Broken O Ranch in Montana - 124,000 acres - in 2012. That would be a great place to build a HUGE stadium...but no one is claiming that's why he bought the land. He's also bought parcels of land in Massachusetts, as well as a LOT of land in Missouri.

    So why is it that 0.007% of Kroenke's US land holdings is causing such controversy?

    The answer is quite simple - desperation. The so-called "fans" in LA (not the true fans - just the fans of the CITY) are grasping at straws. I can give an analogy that explains it quite well:

    A couple of millennia ago, Roman Legions looked to their religious leaders for battle omens; they based the timing of their attacks on what they believed the gods said. If they were planning an attack, they wanted to have on omen of success. Some days, an eagle flying north was a good omen. Other days, it was a bad omen. It all depended on what the priests thought the Generals or Legates wanted to hear.

    This is what the BBTLAR crowd is doing - they are seeing common, everyday happenings, and assigning a divine element to these occurrences. It's not the least bit uncommon for Stan Kroenke to purchase land, especially land from Wal-Mart. Considering his wife, Ann, is one of the Wal-Mart heirs, and Stan served on the Board of Directors for Wal-Mart, and also owns Sam's Clubs and Wal-Marts (two near me), who would see this as abnormal? After all, Jerry Jones (Cowboys) also owns land and even has a shopping center near me that is anchored with a Wal-Mart. The NFL has a policy which requires ALL NFL owners to notify the Commissioner when ANY land is purchased in the LA market. Stan did so - and immediately, the BBTLAR saw those magical little omens...

    So...where does St. Louis stand?

    Quite simply, we aren't standing anywhere different than we were two months ago. Why?
    1. To move an NFL franchise, there's a LOT of things that must take place BEFORE an application can be filed - and that application must be approved. The prerequisites include exhausting ALL possible attempts to keep the team in it's current market area. (Meaning that it is possible to move from downtown to Earth City, but not across the country). These conditions have NOT been met, and have barely begun.
    2. The CVC made an offer to spend $125 million to improve the dome. The Rams wanted $700 million in improvements. Chances are that the CVC will up its offer - and that Kroenke will kick in more of his own money. However, since the year-to-year lease that begins at the end of next season is extremely beneficial to the Rams, and time is Kroenke's friend right now, this may not happen soon. In 2015, the Rams lease states the cost for the Rams to use the dome is only $50,000. That's cheap - and much less than the cost of a new stadium or a move across the country. The CVC will surely contribute at least that much to a new stadium - and with the NFL money of $200 million, that's already one third of a top-tier stadium! In St. Louis, you could build something as impressive as Lucas Oil Stadium for half of the price it would cost in LA...and when you're talking potential savings of close to a billion dollars, you can bet Stan Kroenke is listening.
    3. The Rams have imbedded themselves in the St. Louis community. Looking back at LA in the early 90's, the Rams began divorcing themselves from the spotlight. In the 80's, you could see the Rams EVERYWHERE. They were making a lot of public appearances, they were on national TV. By 1994, they were basically invisible. In St. Louis, it is just the opposite. The Rams are becoming MORE visible. They are more active in the community today than they were even 5 years ago.
    4. The Rams have invested in their infrastructure. They have spent millions of dollars upgrading and building at their Earth City facilities.
    5. The fans are different, too. When you hear the BBTLAR "fans" babble, you would think that the Rams always had 99% or better attendance at every LA area game. This is far from the truth. Yes, the highest attendance for a single post season game happened in Los Angeles - but this record has been eclipsed several times for even PRE-season games. In reality, the attendance of Rams games in LA dropped drastically in the last few years of the LA era. In St. Louis, we have also experienced a decrease in attendance compared to the GSOT era - but, if you look at the figures, they have actually INCREASED in the past two years.
    6. Lastly, Stan Kroenke is NOT a fit for California. Being a self-made billionaire, he knows how to make money. He knows how government rules, regulations, laws, and taxes will either make or break a deal. Missouri, even the City of St. Louis, is much less restrictive than the State of California. Personal income taxes for those with incomes over $1 million can be OVER 60%. That means that for every dollar you make, you pay over 60 cents out in taxes. In Missouri, the total MAXIMUM tax (federal AND state) is 45.6%.
    Stan is also well known for being a conservative. California and conservatives don't mix. California's legislators would welcome Stan's money - but would rather not see Stan himself in the state. Don't overlook the potential politics...it may be a minor factor, but it is one that is in play.
    Stan's also a "homeboy", being named after two of the most famous St. Louis Cardinals. His businesses are based here. His home is here. (When I say here, I mean Missouri). His interests are here.

    Stan's not going to say much about the LA land buy. He's not stupid. He knows that the delusional people in LA will start rumors. Heck, he might even start up a few himself - but that's what will work best for him. He's seen how LA was used as leverage for other teams wanting new stadiums. He's smarter than most other NFL owners when it comes to investments. He knows that if he wants to have the city of St. Louis and/or the State of Missouri to kick in some cash for the Rams stadium, whether new or refurbishing the dome, his best offense is silence. By not saying a word, fear sets in - and the panicked people of St. Louis will cry out for the city and state to help keep the Rams in the St. Louis area. Government officials, both state and local, will panic over lost tax revenue. Tourism officials will panic over the loss of potential visitors to the area. Together, these voices will carry a lot of weight - and the longer it goes on, the louder it will be. At only $50K per game, the year-to-year lease isn't going to hurt the Rams. It will, however, benefit Kroenke.

    Right now, there is NO reason to think the Rams will move. This is all simple psychological manipulation intended to elicit responses to make sure Kroenke gets the best deal possible for both himself and the team.


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    Re: Facts and the LA hype...

    Very good read. I think you highlight many good points, and have convinced me that the Rams' potential move to LA is less likely. If the Rams could start fielding a winning team for a few years, I think you would see alot of this relocation talk go away.

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    Re: Facts and the LA hype...

    I don't agree. The fact that The Rams have a tenuous situation with the dome in St. Louis makes it normal for people to speculate(and/or hope, depending on how long they've been a Rams fan) of a move back to LA. And since it is the 2nd largest city in the US, and with Goodell seemingly wanting to capitalize on every available market possible (hence, the London nonsense and a Super Bowl in NJ), I'd lay odds there will be a team there within 5-7 years.

    People aren't claiming Kroenke's other land holdings as "an omen" because aside from the Rams having a history in LA, bringing a team to those other places isn't the least bit plausible. Massachusetts has a successful team with a loyal following. Ditto for Colorado. The NFL wouldn't permit another team to be dropped in those states. The NFL isn't going to Montana, which has about 15 people in the 4th largest state in the US. And people will go to Afghanistan before they go to Canada to watch NFL football.

    As an NJ resident, I do not have a dog in the fight, but in the interests of full disclosure, I absolutely hated it when the Rams moved. It is pointless to re-cover old ground, but suffice to say it should've never happened. I have nothing against the people of Missouri and can completely understand the negative feelings a loyal Rams fan in the state would have regarding a potential move, but if it were my decision to make, the Rams would be in Los Angeles.

    I have absolutely no idea where the future of the Rams lies. What I DO KNOW is that it is ridiculous for anyone to dismiss the possibility of the Rams moving, given their situation with the city of St. Louis as well as documented fan apathy over the years. I can't in a million years imagine the city forking over 700 million dollars to upgrade the Jones Dome, which is a major league eyesore less than 20 years old.

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    Re: Facts and the LA hype...

    Thank You Sam. Your thoughts have arrived just in time for me. It's been a long cold dreary winter. Your post is like sunshine.
    I'm the guy that walks up after the argument's started.

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    Re: Facts and the LA hype...

    It's funny listening to St. Louis Rams fans talk. The Rams have only been a part of St Louis for 20 years. They were in L.A. for more twice that time. L.A. Rams fans are Ram fans not fans of the city, the Rams have been out of L.A. for over 20 years yet there are still multiple Ram fans in L.A. The reason St Louis Rams fans make up these silly arguments is the fact that L.A. is a serious threat. I lived in Inglewood, I know that area very well. basically be brought the parking lot to the Hollywood Racetrack. No development has been done there but there is a plan to build a new development where the race track used to be. Ask yourself this. Why would he buy the land for the parking lot if he didn't have plans. Yes it is possible he's going to use that land to place a shopping center for the new homes in that area or he plans to make an offer on the land owned by developers. That area has seen several Championship finals by the Lakers, a football team wouldn't be a problem.

    Before you say that is an area of mostly blacks and mexicans, Whites are moving into these areas at an alarming rate there's a lot of gentrification going on. Trust me the Rams moving to L.A. is very real. They already have two available stadiums to play at while the new one is being built. L.A. house two NFL teams it is very easy to bring in a team. You talk about the billions it would cost to build a stadium yet you forget the billions gained in advertisement. You're talking about the 2nd largest market vs. 20 something. Not even close.

    While you pose some nice arguments they are not facts they're just your argument as to why you think the team will stay. L.A. fans can come up with 10x the arguments.

    THE TRUTH is no one knows the mind of Kreonke, but Kreonke. He could be trying to dump his shares of the Nuggets and buy the 27 percent of the Lakers up for sale along with AEG.
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    Re: Facts and the LA hype...

    I think the only thing that can be said with any sort of certainty is that when the dust settles and the Rams are in a new home, whether that's in LA or StL remains to be seen, is that Stan will own the building and the land around said building. He is a business man and he knows there is as much money to be made from developing an entertainment hub around the stadium as there is to be made from the stadium.

    Personally not living in either LA or StL I don't think either fan base has/had supported the Rams to the level an NFL franchise deserves. It will be very interesting to see how this all unfolds.

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    Re: Facts and the LA hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by jjigga3000 View Post
    It's funny listening to St. Louis Rams fans talk. The Rams have only been a part of St Louis for 20 years. They were in L.A. for more twice that time. L.A. Rams fans are Ram fans not fans of the city, the Rams have been out of L.A. for over 20 years yet there are still multiple Ram fans in L.A. The reason St Louis Rams fans make up these silly arguments is the fact that L.A. is a serious threat. I lived in Inglewood, I know that area very well. basically be brought the parking lot to the Hollywood Racetrack. No development has been done there but there is a plan to build a new development where the race track used to be. Ask yourself this. Why would he buy the land for the parking lot if he didn't have plans. Yes it is possible he's going to use that land to place a shopping center for the new homes in that area or he plans to make an offer on the land owned by developers. That area has seen several Championship finals by the Lakers, a football team wouldn't be a problem.

    Before you say that is an area of mostly blacks and mexicans, Whites are moving into these areas at an alarming rate there's a lot of gentrification going on. Trust me the Rams moving to L.A. is very real. They already have two available stadiums to play at while the new one is being built. L.A. house two NFL teams it is very easy to bring in a team. You talk about the billions it would cost to build a stadium yet you forget the billions gained in advertisement. You're talking about the 2nd largest market vs. 20 something. Not even close.

    While you pose some nice arguments they are not facts they're just your argument as to why you think the team will stay. L.A. fans can come up with 10x the arguments.

    THE TRUTH is no one knows the mind of Kreonke, but Kreonke. He could be trying to dump his shares of the Nuggets and buy the 27 percent of the Lakers up for sale along with AEG.
    I believe I covered all your arguments quite well. First off, I never said there were no true fans in Los Angeles, for I know many of them. The "fans" I speak of are not Rams fans, they are the fans of a city and its team. They claim to be Rams fans, but ONLY if the Rams are in LA. Those are "fans of a city" that I speak of - it is not the majority of the fans, but it is the group of which I speak.
    Second, bringing up facts is not a "silly argument". Every statement I have made is based upon research of the topic. Nothing is "made up". That is the entire point of this post - it is based on FACTS, not speculation or rumor.
    Third - I believe I did neglect to mention the residential development that is scheduled for the Hollywood Park area. That would be a great place for a land developer such as Kroenke to build a massive retail complex on the 60 acres he recently purchased, wouldn't it?
    Fourth - Yes, a football team WOULD be a problem. In fact, just about a year ago, the Commissioner stated that the LA market was not a one-team market, that there would have to be TWO teams in order for the LA market to become part of the NFL again. Tell me, who is the other team? According to the people in LA, it's nobody.
    Fifth - and I am extremely serious on this - race has NOTHING to do with this argument. In fact, now that you have brought up the subject, it would be a good time to remind everyone that Clan Ram does not tolerate discussions about race for ANY reason.
    Sixth -you mention two stadiums available. Could you please provide the names of these venues and information showing their use has been approved by all parties concerned, including local and state approvals, NFL approval, etc.?
    Seventh - yes, I did mention revenue. In fact, if you would have read the entire post, you would see where taxes in California are over 60% as opposed to a maximum rate of 46.5% for Missouri. Considering the relocation fees and other associated costs would be close to one BILLION dollars, and the cost of another stadium would be another billion, that's $2 billion laid out BEFORE the first snap could take place. How many ads would have to be sold just to begin to pay off the two billion (not counting any interest, taxes, or other costs)?
    I'm 100% positive that the LA crowd could come up with 10 times as many arguments. The question is - how many of those are based on facts, and how many are speculation and rumor?

    The one point you did make that is not disputed is that Kroenke is the ONLY one who knows what will happen, and he isn't speaking...so why is it that LA "fans" and yourself are so sure the Rams are moving? Is it speculation or rumor?
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    Re: Facts and the LA hype...

    I've been a Rams fan since their days in LA and even after they left I've continued to support them. Of course I'd like to see them return to LA, but until it actually happens (or doesn't happen) I'm not losing any sleep over it because Stan is going to do what is best for Stan. Unfortunately, the only way St. Louis fans can convince him to keep the team in St. Louis is to sell out their home games and honor their agreement of getting him an upper echelon stadium.

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    Re: Facts and the LA hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by jjigga3000 View Post
    The Rams have only been a part of St Louis for 20 years.
    You gotta start somewhere.


    L.A. Rams fans are Ram fans not fans of the city
    If that were entirely the case, then they wouldn't care if they came back.

    This whole argument is ridiculous. I just wish the decision would be made to end it all.

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    Re: Facts and the LA hype...

    If there is nothing to this issue, it sure would be easy for Kroenke, or someone from his organization to say so. Instead, I believe the organization sent an email to the LA Times saying they have not decided what to do with the property, and that they will "look at all options". Why not just say they aren't looking to build a stadium on the property for the Rams?

    I've already stated in another thread that I don't see it happening because of LAX, but it seems odd that Kroenke isn't clearing things up, has issued no statements, and reportedly has not returned calls from Governor Jay Nixon about all the speculation.
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    Re: Facts and the LA hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFanSam View Post
    I believe I covered all your arguments quite well. First off, I never said there were no true fans in Los Angeles, for I know many of them. The "fans" I speak of are not Rams fans, they are the fans of a city and its team. They claim to be Rams fans, but ONLY if the Rams are in LA. Those are "fans of a city" that I speak of - it is not the majority of the fans, but it is the group of which I speak.
    Second, bringing up facts is not a "silly argument". Every statement I have made is based upon research of the topic. Nothing is "made up". That is the entire point of this post - it is based on FACTS, not speculation or rumor.
    Third - I believe I did neglect to mention the residential development that is scheduled for the Hollywood Park area. That would be a great place for a land developer such as Kroenke to build a massive retail complex on the 60 acres he recently purchased, wouldn't it?
    Fourth - Yes, a football team WOULD be a problem. In fact, just about a year ago, the Commissioner stated that the LA market was not a one-team market, that there would have to be TWO teams in order for the LA market to become part of the NFL again. Tell me, who is the other team? According to the people in LA, it's nobody.
    Fifth - and I am extremely serious on this - race has NOTHING to do with this argument. In fact, now that you have brought up the subject, it would be a good time to remind everyone that Clan Ram does not tolerate discussions about race for ANY reason.
    Sixth -you mention two stadiums available. Could you please provide the names of these venues and information showing their use has been approved by all parties concerned, including local and state approvals, NFL approval, etc.?
    Seventh - yes, I did mention revenue. In fact, if you would have read the entire post, you would see where taxes in California are over 60% as opposed to a maximum rate of 46.5% for Missouri. Considering the relocation fees and other associated costs would be close to one BILLION dollars, and the cost of another stadium would be another billion, that's $2 billion laid out BEFORE the first snap could take place. How many ads would have to be sold just to begin to pay off the two billion (not counting any interest, taxes, or other costs)?
    I'm 100% positive that the LA crowd could come up with 10 times as many arguments. The question is - how many of those are based on facts, and how many are speculation and rumor?

    The one point you did make that is not disputed is that Kroenke is the ONLY one who knows what will happen, and he isn't speaking...so why is it that LA "fans" and yourself are so sure the Rams are moving? Is it speculation or rumor?
    L.A. Coliseum and Rose Bowl, although L.A. Coliseum is not an ideal spot for an NFL team. It can hold 80k plus. Same with Rose Bowl.

    My mention of race was based upon demographics and not race alone. Which is brought up when discussing the viability of any market when it comes to a sports team and it's surrounding market. Funny how people get squeamish when you mention any race, and can't talk about race comfortably in a Sports setting. People exist as different races and this particular case, rase would be relevant. Gentrification is also relevant, this is a dirty secret that goes on when land developers are considering building a new stadium. They want to raise the property value of the surrounding areas, which is what happened around staples center. State Taxes in California are only 13% my friend, and Magic and his consortium of partners just brought the Dodgers for 2 bio, Kreonke would definitely pay it in that Market because of the the amount of money to be made. The Rams aren't the Lakers, but winning consistently over a few years and an appearance in a Super Bowl could fix that. The Lakers signed a Billion dollar T.V. contract.

    Lastly although I'm from L.A. I don't care where the Rams live. I'm a Rams fan, and I live in Dallas now. I've supported this team since I've been a kid, and I'll support them if they moved to London doesn't matter. The fact is and will always be L.A. makes the most since for the Rams being they are in the NFC WEST and are based in the Midwest and have to travel over 1000 miles to play any of the teams in their division and vice versa. With that being said because of the internet this is more of a global community so it really doesn't matter. But if I were a betting man I would bet within the next two years Rams are in L.A.

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    Re: Facts and the LA hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    If there is nothing to this issue, it sure would be easy for Kroenke, or someone from his organization to say so. Instead, I believe the organization sent an email to the LA Times saying they have not decided what to do with the property, and that they will "look at all options". Why not just say they aren't looking to build a stadium on the property for the Rams?

    I've already stated in another thread that I don't see it happening because of LAX, but it seems odd that Kroenke isn't clearing things up, has issued no statements, and reportedly has not returned calls from Governor Jay Nixon about all the speculation.
    Exactly if the Rams weren't considering a move there would be no discussion of this matter, the fact that we are bears a possibility.

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    Re: Facts and the LA hype...

    Here's another fact The NFL was thoroughly apprised of it. An owner doesn’t have to tell the NFL if, say, he’s buying a house in L.A., or even land for a business. But if he has a stadium in mind, he’s got to keep the league informed. That’s what the Rams owner did when he made the purchase through the Kroenke Organization.

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    Re: Facts and the LA hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    If there is nothing to this issue, it sure would be easy for Kroenke, or someone from his organization to say so. Instead, I believe the organization sent an email to the LA Times saying they have not decided what to do with the property, and that they will "look at all options". Why not just say they aren't looking to build a stadium on the property for the Rams?

    I've already stated in another thread that I don't see it happening because of LAX, but it seems odd that Kroenke isn't clearing things up, has issued no statements, and reportedly has not returned calls from Governor Jay Nixon about all the speculation.
    Leverage.....
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    Re: Facts and the LA hype...

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFanSam View Post
    Fourth - Yes, a football team WOULD be a problem. In fact, just about a year ago, the Commissioner stated that the LA market was not a one-team market, that there would have to be TWO teams in order for the LA market to become part of the NFL again. Tell me, who is the other team? According to the people in LA, it's nobody.
    I don't know what "LA fans" you speak of, but that other team will be the Chargers.
    Faithful Rams fan since 1968

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