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  1. #1
    Endzorn's Avatar
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    Fair assessment? Sea v. StL

    I've perused you're forum recently at the advise of Greensmachine, who happens to be a close friend, and I took note of the debate between the offseasons of Seattle and Saint Louis. Anyway, I wanted to give my unbiased (yeah right) view of the two teams as they currently stack up against each other. Feel free to tear me apart.

    Coaching - Push

    I find it incredibly difficult to like Mike Holmgren because his units consistently underachieve and he is maddeningly conservative with any 4th quarter lead. However, I think Martz is his own biggest fan and although he is quite innovative I think most outsiders would agree he often times is his own worst enemy.

    I'm not informed enough about your assistants to debate below head coach level.

    Offense-

    QB - edge StL

    I'm a Hasselbeck fan and I think he is a quality QB, but I think Bulger is more consistent and FAR more dangerous on deep routes. Although Hass has been victimized by dropped passes he still doesn't scare anyone beyond 15-20 yards. He is very accurate on short and intermediate routes and very mobile but flat out pedestrian on deep throws. If Bulger gets time in the pocket with those WR's he scares the ____ out of me. Still, closer call than many of you will admit.

    WR/TE - edge StL

    This isn't even open for debate so don't rub it in.

    RB/FB - Push

    Here is where Martz levels the playing field for Seattle. I think StL has more talent, however, I think Seattle has the better ground game. Jackson will be a horse and every team would salivate at the idea of Faulk as a BACKUP. Why doesn't Martz exploit this talent more? Jackson has the ability to soften a defense and make passing game even deadlier, but Martz seems to run only when the media pressures him for a week.

    Alexander is productive, but overrated. When he feels like it he can run with the best, but it's evident to me that he's not willing to put his head down and grab the extra yard (ask Curtis Martin). Mack Strong might be the most underrated player in football. Laugh if you want, but if you visit ANY Seahawk forum on the net you won't find one fan who doesn't love that guy. Devastating blocker.

    Offensive line - edge Sea

    The left side of Seattle's line is fantastic and as a whole this unit has to be top five to ten in the NFL. Chris Gray is the only weak link at RG, but his time has finally passed him by and the stable of quality interior blockers will get an opportunity. This is the best unit on the team. I'm not entirely familiar with Stl's offensive line as it seems to fluctuate season to season, but it was a weak link last year and starting a rookie at RT won't solve the problem. Traditionally rookie offensive linemen struggle so don't be surprised if it takes your man a while to adjust.

    Defensive line - Push

    If Kennedy steps up then StL line will be decent, not great. The same can be said for Seattle and Marcus Tubbs. StL gets better pressure, but Seattle has marginally better tackles with a reliable combo of Moore and Woodard. When Wistrom was healthy he was fun to watch. Heck of a motor. All things considered, with the exception of Little, niether team has anything to boast about.

    LB - Incomplete (maybe slight edge to Stl)

    I know you guys think you have found the answer with Coakley and Claiborne, but I'm not buying it yet. No doubt Coakley will be a fine, fine addition, but Claiborne has been an underachiever since his lofty draft status. There is a reason Minnesota (with plenty of cap room and huge LB issues) didn't even make an effort to resign him. It was a wise move to keep Tinoisamoa at LB where he can best use his talents, IMO.

    Seattle has totally revamped last year's abysmal unit. Adding Sharper was huge as he will make all the tackles. DD Lewis spent last season on IR, but he also is a very reliable tackler. If any of you have heard about Tatupu, Seattle's second round reach, most Seahawks fans think he is the second coming of Zach Thomas. WTF? First of all he's a rookie, second of all even if he won the MLB job he won't play 60% or more of the snaps because Rhodes always has Seattle in the nickel.

    All in all I'd be concerned to claim either unit as mine.

    Secondary - edge Sea

    Seattle has a dynamite duo at safety with Boulware and Hamlin (if he can avoid personal fouls). I continue to read that Rams fans believe the combination of Lucas and Taylor was far better than Dyson and Herndon will be. Nonsense. Taylor was an absolute nonfactor with his season long injury battle. Lucas was fantastic, but certainly not worth his Trump-esque payday with the number of illegal contact penalties he was prone to. I'll admit that Herndon is an unknown, but Seattle loves his physicality at NB and he lead the league in passes defensed last year. Dyson is average, that's why he went so long w/o an offer in FA. Trufant is solid, perhaps only a shot of confidence away from elite.

    StL obviously has issues at safety if the team considered moving Tino over and Archuleta needs to regain a measure of health. Here again I am not qualified to make a judgement about your CB situation, but honestly, would you rather have Seattle's CB situation or yours?

    Special teams - Vomit

    I've read that most StL fans believe the ST's issues have been adequately addressed and you may be right. I think these two teams are in very similar situations. Last year both units were horrendous and both teams made a concerted effort to upgrade and perhaps both have. I see it as a wash.

    Intangibles (head to head) - StL

    Hey, when you go 3-0 you've got something working in your favor. I do believe that with a recent winning tradition and a couple of spectacular skill position players the team can rely on in the clutch that the Rams have the advantage.

    Last season Seattle had far too many players of questionable character, but new team president Ruskell purged the roster of 90% of them. It remains to be seen what the new-look attitude will produce.

    I'll say this about Seattle's defense, when the unit was healthy the first three weeks they were #1 in the NFL statistically. However, a spate of injuries demolished what was a very solid unit and specifically the injuries to Wistrom and the LB core were devastating. I know every team suffers injuries, but it seemed every week we lost another defensive starter.

    I'm looking forward to this season for three reasons:
    1. This should be a great head-to-head battle between StL and Sea.
    2. Ruskell finally assembled a group of leaders and high character PEOPLE that fans can actually be proud of.
    3. If Seattle struggles there will FINALLY be closure with the Holmgren issue.

    Let's see the slings and arrows.


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    Re: Fair assessment? Sea v. StL

    That was a very fair assesment. I think both teams have some big questions that make it impossible to acurately determin who will be more dominant in 2005. We'll have to wait and see. The team that most effectively improves problem areas will be in control of the West IMO. Your take on the Seahawks character was very candid and is an area I felt the Rams had a clear advantage last year. Who knows what will happen this year, but that first meeting will be a major factor in setting the tone.

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    Re: Fair assessment? Sea v. StL

    Coaching - Push

    I find it incredibly difficult to like Mike Holmgren because his units consistently underachieve and he is maddeningly conservative with any 4th quarter lead. However, I think Martz is his own biggest fan and although he is quite innovative I think most outsiders would agree he often times is his own worst enemy.

    I'm not informed enough about your assistants to debate below head coach level.
    Agreed. We've both got head coaches who some fans can't stand but Martz seems to be in Holmgren's head. Both teams also have defensive coordinators who many fans love to kick when they're down (Ray Rhodes and Larry Marmie). That said, Martz is maturing as a head coach, putting aside his disregard for special teams this offseason and totally overhauling the ST's unit, much like he did with the defense before the 2000 offseason. I still give this one an even although Martz does make things more exciting.

    Offense-

    QB - edge StL

    I'm a Hasselbeck fan and I think he is a quality QB, but I think Bulger is more consistent and FAR more dangerous on deep routes. Although Hass has been victimized by dropped passes he still doesn't scare anyone beyond 15-20 yards. He is very accurate on short and intermediate routes and very mobile but flat out pedestrian on deep throws. If Bulger gets time in the pocket with those WR's he scares the ____ out of me. Still, closer call than many of you will admit.
    Agreed. Hasselbeck is good but Bulger had a great year last year, and that's with a revolving door at RT that left him fearing for his life. If Alex Barron can step up I promise you Bulger will have a Pro Bowl year, that is if the QB's chosen aren't based on names alone a la Favre and Vick.

    WR/TE - edge StL

    This isn't even open for debate so don't rub it in.
    Agreed. Nothing to add here although the Seahawks depth has gotten better.

    RB/FB - Push

    Here is where Martz levels the playing field for Seattle. I think StL has more talent, however, I think Seattle has the better ground game. Jackson will be a horse and every team would salivate at the idea of Faulk as a BACKUP. Why doesn't Martz exploit this talent more? Jackson has the ability to soften a defense and make passing game even deadlier, but Martz seems to run only when the media pressures him for a week.

    Alexander is productive, but overrated. When he feels like it he can run with the best, but it's evident to me that he's not willing to put his head down and grab the extra yard (ask Curtis Martin). Mack Strong might be the most underrated player in football. Laugh if you want, but if you visit ANY Seahawk forum on the net you won't find one fan who doesn't love that guy. Devastating blocker.
    I disagree. We haven't seen what Steven Jackson can do carrying the workload over the course of a season. Alexander has proven that he's one of the best in the league. I think Steven Jackson could be one of the best in the league very soon, but I think you'd have to say the Hawks have the edge here because of SA's track record.

    Offensive line - edge Sea

    The left side of Seattle's line is fantastic and as a whole this unit has to be top five to ten in the NFL. Chris Gray is the only weak link at RG, but his time has finally passed him by and the stable of quality interior blockers will get an opportunity. This is the best unit on the team. I'm not entirely familiar with Stl's offensive line as it seems to fluctuate season to season, but it was a weak link last year and starting a rookie at RT won't solve the problem. Traditionally rookie offensive linemen struggle so don't be surprised if it takes your man a while to adjust.
    I'm not sure I like Pork Chop at RT either. Seems he has had much more trouble with Little in the past than Chris Terry did. That makes the right side very week. I have no question that Pace will be good as usual, and while Timmerman and McCollum (who I believe is in his last year with the team) are getting older, they're still very productive. The LG spot next to Pace is in good hands with a competition between Blaine Saipaia, Scott Tercero and Rex Tucker. All three are very capable starters. The only quesiton is the development of Alex Barron at RT. Going head to head with Leonard Little during training camp will do wonders for him. That question is enough to give Seattle the advantage though.

    Defensive line - Push

    If Kennedy steps up then StL line will be decent, not great. The same can be said for Seattle and Marcus Tubbs. StL gets better pressure, but Seattle has marginally better tackles with a reliable combo of Moore and Woodard. When Wistrom was healthy he was fun to watch. Heck of a motor. All things considered, with the exception of Little, niether team has anything to boast about.
    I disagree with your analysis here. Let's face it, Leonard Little is the only playmaker on either team's D-Line. Ryan Pickett is not flashy but he's solid. Last year when Kennedy was in the lineup we only gave up 3.5 YPC. With another season under his belt, he'll only get better. On top of that Anthony Hargrove, who unseated Bryce Fisher at the RE spot lst year is developing into a monster. This kids game is just like Leonard Little's and if he continues to improve like he did all last year, watch out. I'd still like the Rams to add another lineman for depth though.

    So basically my analysis is Little>Wistrom, Hargrove>Fisher, Rams DT's = Seahawk's DT's. Thus, the advantage goes to the Rams.

    [QUOTE]LB - Incomplete (maybe slight edge to Stl)

    I know you guys think you have found the answer with Coakley and Claiborne, but I'm not buying it yet. No doubt Coakley will be a fine, fine addition, but Claiborne has been an underachiever since his lofty draft status. There is a reason Minnesota (with plenty of cap room and huge LB issues) didn't even make an effort to resign him. It was a wise move to keep Tinoisamoa at LB where he can best use his talents, IMO.

    Seattle has totally revamped last year's abysmal unit. Adding Sharper was huge as he will make all the tackles. DD Lewis spent last season on IR, but he also is a very reliable tackler. If any of you have heard about Tatupu, Seattle's second round reach, most Seahawks fans think he is the second coming of Zach Thomas. WTF? First of all he's a rookie, second of all even if he won the MLB job he won't play 60% or more of the snaps because Rhodes always has Seattle in the nickel.

    All in all I'd be concerned to claim either unit as mine.[QUOTE]

    The thing is, Claiborne really hasn't 'underachieved' he's just been injured. He's compiled two back to back 100-plus tackle seasons. He's never been given the chance to play MLB (his natural and college position) and comparing his career to that of our MLB last year Robert Thomas is like night and day. It's a major improvement for the Rams at MLB, as is Coakley over lazy Tommy Polley (although Polley could shine in Baltimore under Ray Lewis' motivation. We finally have LB's that we can be proud of.

    Sharper's a proven vet, and will be the bright spot of the linebackers. I do think he's a step down from the seemingly immortal Chad Brown though. I'm not gonna lie, I don't know much about Lofa Tatupu, but depending on a rookie who almost everyone thought as a reach, to make a difference may not be a good idea. I think D.D. Lewis is a capable LB but I see him as a big step down from Anthony Simmons.

    Secondary - edge Sea

    Seattle has a dynamite duo at safety with Boulware and Hamlin (if he can avoid personal fouls). I continue to read that Rams fans believe the combination of Lucas and Taylor was far better than Dyson and Herndon will be. Nonsense. Taylor was an absolute nonfactor with his season long injury battle. Lucas was fantastic, but certainly not worth his Trump-esque payday with the number of illegal contact penalties he was prone to. I'll admit that Herndon is an unknown, but Seattle loves his physicality at NB and he lead the league in passes defensed last year. Dyson is average, that's why he went so long w/o an offer in FA. Trufant is solid, perhaps only a shot of confidence away from elite.

    StL obviously has issues at safety if the team considered moving Tino over and Archuleta needs to regain a measure of health. Here again I am not qualified to make a judgement about your CB situation, but honestly, would you rather have Seattle's CB situation or yours?
    I like Seattle's secondary and agree that they have the advantage. I do think Lucas was very good and Dyson is a step down but not by much. Kelly Herndon will be a great nickel corner for you, especially since Rhodes likes the nickel-d so much. I think the Rams corners are good, Butler si coming off a great season. Fisher is solid but I'd rather have Trufant. The Rams safety question is the only thing that bothers me. Archuleta appears that he'll be healthy for the season which is a big plus. The other safety spot (yeah the Rams don't have FS and SS now, it's LS and RS (left and right)), is the big question mark. Hopefully Atogwe turns into a big playmaker but it's all speculation right now.

    Special teams - Vomit

    I've read that most StL fans believe the ST's issues have been adequately addressed and you may be right. I think these two teams are in very similar situations. Last year both units were horrendous and both teams made a concerted effort to upgrade and perhaps both have. I see it as a wash.
    Who knows.

    Intangibles (head to head) - StL

    Hey, when you go 3-0 you've got something working in your favor. I do believe that with a recent winning tradition and a couple of spectacular skill position players the team can rely on in the clutch that the Rams have the advantage.

    Last season Seattle had far too many players of questionable character, but new team president Ruskell purged the roster of 90% of them. It remains to be seen what the new-look attitude will produce.

    I'll say this about Seattle's defense, when the unit was healthy the first three weeks they were #1 in the NFL statistically. However, a spate of injuries demolished what was a very solid unit and specifically the injuries to Wistrom and the LB core were devastating. I know every team suffers injuries, but it seemed every week we lost another defensive starter.

    I'm looking forward to this season for three reasons:
    1. This should be a great head-to-head battle between StL and Sea.
    2. Ruskell finally assembled a group of leaders and high character PEOPLE that fans can actually be proud of.
    3. If Seattle struggles there will FINALLY be closure with the Holmgren issue.

    Let's see the slings and arrows.
    The way I see it, the Seahawks had a good offseason bringing back their major talent (Hass, SA, Jones) but it seems like any additions were to make up for a bigger subtraction.

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    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Fair assessment? Sea v. StL

    I think that's a very fair assessment.

    You may be the first Seahawk fan I've seen who's been willing to acknowledge that Bulger has the edge over Hasselbeck.

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    Re: Fair assessment? Sea v. StL

    First off, Endzorn, welcome aboard. And your analysis is about as fair as any Hawk or Ram fan could put together on this topic, so congratulations.
    No doubt Coakley will be a fine, fine addition, but Claiborne has been an underachiever since his lofty draft status. There is a reason Minnesota (with plenty of cap room and huge LB issues) didn't even make an effort to resign him
    Yes, there is a reason that Minnesota dumped him. Because they are a 4-3 with more ILBs on the roster than OLBs. They needed an OLB which Claiborne was tired of doing. He wanted to get back to the middle (which he said in one of his first St. Louis interviews) and Minnesota no longer needed an expensive ILB that wouldn't play OLB. And that's where we come in...we need an ILB, he wanted to play ILB. Perfect fit.

    As far as his underachieving, first off he has played most of his career out of position (Detroit made him move outside as well). This will be his first chance to claim the middle all for his own. Second, everyone wants to hold his career up to his draft spot. We couldn't give a rat's backside where Detroit drafted him. All we care is that he is a large bodied ILB averaging 6 stops per game taking the place of our small bodied ILB averaging 3.9 stops per game.

    Barring injury, I'm going to enjoy watching all the crow get served up around the NFL when Claiborne has his best season thus far.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    sbramfan is offline Registered User
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    Re: Fair assessment? Sea v. StL

    What happens is that out in the cold of Seattle, Hasselbecks lack of hair interferes with his decision making, while bulgers 'fro helps keep the brain cells working....

    just kidding, but definitely a good assesment.

    Can't wait to get this thing started!

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    Re: Fair assessment? Sea v. StL

    I can understand the optimism that surrounds the acquisition of Claiborne because he represents an upgrade at the minimum. It's no different than the optimism Seahawks fans see in the acquisitions of Jurevicious and Pathon at WR. The point I would make is that when a player has been in the league a few years and demonstrated a certain attitude and production level, they generally don't magically change for the better (outside of NE anyway). Claiborne had weight issues and although he's not a bad LB he isn't spectacular either. That being said I'm assuming no one here expects him to be Lawrence Taylor.

    Jurevicious and Pathon are two receivers who haven't exactly stood out as game breakers and with the exception of a couple memorable plays by Jurv neither stirs fear in a DC's gameplan. However, they represent a significant upgrade in consistency and attitude. Just like in Claiborne's situation though, I'm not expecting either to suddenly change and turn into 1,000 yd receivers.
    Who knows, they'll probably both start dropping balls like pubescent boys (ha, ha).

    To ZigZagRam I would say that I'm very comfortable if Prok Chop starts at RT, but I don't think he will. He is a better than average guard and all indications seem to point to a permanent RG spot. RT will be Locklear's to lose. Terry was one of those low character players I talked about and I for one will not be saddened by his departure. How can you be loyal to a player you can't trust? However, I won't be excited about anyone lining up opposite Little.

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    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Fair assessment? Sea v. StL

    Quote Originally Posted by Endzorn
    Coaching - Push
    Agreed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Endzorn
    QB - edge StL
    I think you could make a case for this as a push, definitely. But I won't disagree with you.

    I think both guys are talented, and Hasselbeck is playing with a set of receivers that can't hang onto the ball for the life of them while Bulger is playing with arguably the best one-two receiver punch in football.


    Quote Originally Posted by Endzorn
    WR/TE - edge StL
    Agreed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Endzorn
    RB/FB - Push
    Probably, if only because the combination of Alexander/Morris isn't as good as the combination of Jackson/Faulk. But I think if we're looking at starters only, Seattle gets the nod here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Endzorn
    Offensive line - edge Sea
    Here's how I look at the line...

    LT: Walter Jones = Orlando Pace (as far as I'm concerned)
    LG: Steve Hutchinson > Tucker, Saipaia, Terrell, or Tercero
    C: Robbie Tobeck = Andy McCollum (I don't know much about Tobeck, but I think this is about an even match-up... correct me if I'm wrong)
    RG: Chris Gray < Adam Timmerman
    RT: Floyd Womack > Alex Barron (as of right now)

    So yeah, I think Seattle has a slight edge, but I think Barron is the question mark that could flip the dial here. Womack is a solid player, but if Barron gets this offense down and anchors that right side early in the season, I think as a unit, you've gotta give it to the Rams.


    Quote Originally Posted by Endzorn
    Defensive line - Push
    Wistrom/Fisher evens out to Little/Hargrove until our first-year right end can prove some more on the field. As for the defensive tackles, I'm not that familiar with Seattle's, but I'd feel lucky if this was called a push. Lewis has not developed well while Pickett and Kennedy have shown flashes but no one has been dominant or even consistent, IMO. I think the Rams are really banking on Kennedy stepping up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Endzorn
    LB - Incomplete (maybe slight edge to Stl)
    I have to agree that the Rams have the edge at least when it comes to having veteran guys who we know can play. Even if Claiborne doesn't like up to his hype, I think he's still a solid player whose going to be the big presence in the middle that we need. Coakley is going to be a much better player on the outside than Polley/Chillar were, and Pisa is Pisa.

    Compared to the Seahawks, they've got a great addition in Jamie Sharper to the outside, but the other two positions are question marks. Lewis may be a solid tackler, but is a decent 2003 campaign enough to feel comfortable with? I really am not high on Taputu, so if he wins the starting job, then I'm really going to question what's going on in that group.


    Quote Originally Posted by Endzorn
    Secondary - edge Sea
    No doubt about it, and I agree with you that the line-up of Trufant/Dyson/Herndon is better than the line-up of Trufant/Lucas and either Taylor or Richards. I don't think a vast improvement has been made, but at worst you've broke even if not improved your nickel packages with the addition of Herndon. Dyson may not be the player Lucas was, but he's a solid corner, so I don't think as a whole Seattle is seeing any kind of drop here.

    As for safeties, well, the Rams don't even know who's starting there, so the edge has to go to Seattle.


    Quote Originally Posted by Endzorn
    Special teams - Vomit
    I honestly didn't realize Seattle's ST were that bad.


    Quote Originally Posted by Endzorn
    Intangibles (head to head) - StL
    I agree. 3-0 over Seattle in 2004 gives the Rams a swagger when it comes to comparing these to.

    Good analysis, and welcome to the board, Endzorn.
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    Re: Fair assessment? Sea v. StL

    Quote Originally Posted by endzorn
    The point I would make is that when a player has been in the league a few years and demonstrated a certain attitude and production level, they generally don't magically change for the better (outside of NE anyway).
    I agree with what you are saying, but I will add that, again, this is the first time in his career he is the starter at ILB. He hasn't been that since college where he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. He may not be great even in the middle, but he will be much better than a) what he's being given credit for, and b) what his previous experience has shown.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Fair assessment? Sea v. StL

    His last two years in Detroit (2001, 2002) Claiborne averaged 109.5 tackles, 4.25 and 2.5 interceptions. I'll take that production.

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    Re: Fair assessment? Sea v. StL

    A well balanced assessment, Endzone. Welcome aboard. Keeping your big 3 FA's was a big relief for Seattle.

    I do think our OL issues have been addressed. Bulger should have a great year. Our special teams and defense should be much improved as well. With all of the new talent that were brought in they can't help but be better than last year. Anything would be an improvement.

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    ZigZagRam's Avatar
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    Re: Fair assessment? Sea v. StL

    His last two years in Detroit (2001, 2002) Claiborne averaged 109.5 tackles, 4.25 and 2.5 interceptions. I'll take that production.
    That's not even counting his 2nd year in the league where he had 101 tackles and 3 forced fumbles. And let's not forget that before he got injured in his first season with the Vikings, he was on pace for a 107 tackle, 4 sack season after 12 games.

    I did some research and found out that Claiborne played MLB in his final year in Detroit where he had 100 tackles, 4.5 sacks, and 3 INTs. He also moved to MLB in the middle of his 119 tackle season in 2001.

    I did a little statistical analysis with Claiborne. I took the stats from games he started and got an average of his production during those games. After multiplying that by 16 (1 season) his projected season looks like:

    C.Claiborne 101 Tackles, 3 Sacks, 2 INTs

    I did the same thing with a player Seahawks fans should be fimiliar with, Chad Brown over the course of his Seahawks career and it will shock you how many people don't realize how good Claiborne has been:

    C.Brown 110 Tackles, 7 Sacks, 1 INTs

    -----

    An article written after Claiborne signed with Minnesota (the team that moved him from his natural position): "A four-year veteran, just 24 years old, Claiborne recorded over 100 tackles his first year playing his natural position, the middle linebacker spot and seemed poised for even brighter days."

    Here's an interesting stat I came across while viewing the gamebooks for the 2003 and 2004 seasons:

    0 - The number of games Claiborne started at MLB for the Vikings.

    Was it because they had a better linebacker to play in the middle? An Associated Press article I came across doesn't seem to think that's the case.

    "[Napolean Harris] also will play a large role in reforming the identity of a Vikings defense that lost its best linebacker, Chris Claiborne, in free agency and probably will feature at least six new starters this season."

    So why did they move Claiborne from the middle? The only reason I've been able to come across is that they wanted his blitzing threat from the outside, since they were already getting a solid push up the middle from their DT's. It was not a matter of Claiborne being beat out at MLB, since Minnesota appeared to have made this decision by the time they brought in Claiborne.

    It sounds like injuries and a bad personnel decision by the Vikings defensive coordinators (who were new in 2003 as well as 2004) are the only thing that kept Claiborne from being one of the best MLB's in the game.

    After doing this research, I'm more confident than ever with Claiborne at MLB.
    Last edited by ZigZagRam; -05-24-2005 at 04:49 AM.

  13. #13
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    HUbison is offline Superbowl MVP
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    Re: Fair assessment? Sea v. StL

    Quote Originally Posted by ZZR
    After doing this research, I'm more confident than ever with Claiborne at MLB.
    Now Zig, if you're not careful, you're going to let facts and logic stand in the way of mob mentality.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Fair assessment? Sea v. StL

    Had Claiborne been a late-first or a second round pick, his productivity would be considered right in line with expectations. I think his problem is that he came out of college as a blue-chip, top 10 pick and has not become a Pro Bowl player. As a result, his criticism is overly harsh.

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    Re: Fair assessment? Sea v. StL

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    Had Claiborne been a late-first or a second round pick, his productivity would be considered right in line with expectations. I think his problem is that he came out of college as a blue-chip, top 10 pick and has not become a Pro Bowl player. As a result, his criticism is overly harsh.
    This is getting out of hand. Yet more logic and sound thought regarding Claiborne. How can this be? Hawk fans have described him as "pure crap", so it must be so. No, rational thought towards Claiborne will never do, never do I say.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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