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Thread: Great QBs make everyone better

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    Rambos's Avatar
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    Great QBs make everyone better

    So how many times have you had this conversation? If Bradford had the playmakers that Tom Brady does he would be putting up much better numbers and results. Only to hear a response like, elite QBs make everyone better. It does not matter who is around the QB the great ones elevate the play of everyone.

    This is usually hypothetical question that can never be answered, until this year anyways. In just one year Brady lost all his guys and now has Amendola and a bunch of average at best players. Sam does not have Brady old teammates, but he does have two of the best TEs in the NFL much like Brady had. He also has two very fast playmakers in Givens and Austin.

    As I watched Brady against the Bills I could have sworn I was watching the Rams and Bradford. Time and time again Brady was CHECKING it down to Amendola. He locked onto him and forced it in there and DA made one great catch after another. When Brady went to someone else it was more often then not either dropped or a miscommunication that resulted in Brady getting frustrated.

    I did not see a lot of the players playing great because of the QB.

    Brady was 29 of 52 for an unimpressive 55.8 completion percentage. He had 288 yards, 2 TDs, 1 INT. Which produced a very poor passer RAT 76.4. But the real eye opener is the 5.5 avg. per pass. Bradford in his rookie year was 5.79 per check down, or per pass.

    These numbers are not even close to Bradyís career numbers. Sure its just one game but I really donít see how Brady could consistently put up elite QB numbers with his new cast. I can assure you that if DA misses say 6 games or so, it would not be pretty.

    These number look like Bradfordís numbers when he had little help, with one very good slot receiver. Brady found a way to win the game, much like Bradford did last year against the Bills.

    Bradford played one game with a much-improved cast and the results are in.

    Bradford was 29 of 38 with a 71.1 completion percentage. 299 yards. 2 TDs and 1 INT. RAT 100.7 Avg. pass 7.9.

    Now these numbers are all above Bradfordís career numbers. The number that stands out is 7.9 per pass play. Itís amazing when you can hit a TE and have him run to daylight time and time again. Itís amazing when you can target a rookie WR with talent and he catches every ball that hits his hands. Itís amazing when a WR can force a defense into a soft coverage all day due to his deep ball skills. It also amazing that Bradford does not have the so called happy feet and the deer in the headlights look on his face because he knows heís going to get hit before his WR can uncover.

    Many Rams fans who watched the game Sunday know deep down that Bradford did not play his best game. But now he does not have to be perfect to win a game or put up elite stats.

    Itís a strange feeling to see a Rams team put up 27 points and leave another 15 points out there for the taking.

    As Iím writing this, the NFLN just announced that Amendola will not play Thursday night. Does anyone think Brady will put up elite numbers? Or will he look more like Bradford when Amendola would leave him hanging with no real help.


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    Re: Great QBs make everyone better

    It's usually co-dependent. During the early stages of a QB's career, having good weapons or coaching (Manning and Brady respectively) is crucial to their development. Once they've established themselves pretty well, they can help elevate the players around them (see Julian Edelman). At this point of Bradford's development, he needs the weapons to get comfortable around his environment but through experience and comfort around him, he should be capable of being part of the "Elite" category.
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    Re: Great QBs make everyone better

    Peyton Manning has always had great receivers. Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison. Broncos he has some good receivers as well. Brady had a great supporting cast his whole career. His record breaking year he had Randy Moss, welker, and branch.


    I never understood the argument that, a great qb makes everyone else around him better... I don't buy it. Thats just an excuse for the Bradford haters to use.

    A great QB does not make WRs run better routes, catch balls or outrun defenders. His job is to correctly place the ball into the receivers hands.

    Go Rams!

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    Re: Great QBs make everyone better

    Rambos,

    I understand your point but lets watch the season unfold here. 1 snapshot out of 16 is not a good basis to form a strong foundation of statistical analysis. It does look promising.

    The way I measure....only THE ONLY way is who was victorious. Rams were.....Good job by the team and nice to see Sam bring us back. Time for the next chapter. Bring on the Falcons.......

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    Re: Great QBs make everyone better

    I agree that it goes both ways. For instance, bad QBs, like Gabbert, just plain make mistakes. Look at Fitzgerald last year, and then in game one this year against the Rams. Fitz didnt randomly lose it last year, his QB play sucked and they couldn't get it to him.

    On the other hand, well placed catchable balls that aren't caught doesn't mean the QB was bad. No matter how great a pass it is, it won't matter if the WR just plain can't bring in the ball.

    That said, so far in Bradford's career we've seen both. We've seen Bradford miss wide open receivers, and we've also seen Bradford place a perfect ball straight into the numbers only to have the ball tumble to the turf. I think both will improve as the other improves. The more Bradford puts the ball in a catchable spot, the more the receivers will come down with and gain confidence. The more balls that are caught, the more Bradford will have confidence and continue to place the ball well.

    But once again, you can't have a great WR without at least a decent QB, and you can't have a great QB without at least decent WRs.

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    Re: Great QBs make everyone better

    Bradford and company had a decent game but the next two games are big test. If he can still rally his team with the same ice in his veins against Atlanta i think he"ll start to turn heads. This is just one of those games where we can start to see if Bradford can move up the ranks as a contender for elite status especially being on the road in a loud and noisy dome. RAAAMS BAAABY!!!

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    Re: Great QBs make everyone better

    I think a good QB can elevate a receiver (look at Jared Cook now vs. with the Titans), just like a bad QB can make a good receiver look bad (Larry Fitzgerald with EVERY QB last season).

    That being said, the best QB can't make a bad receiver great. Put Greg Salas with the Broncos and he won't magically become a 1000 yard receiver just because the mythical Peyton Manning is tossing the ball his way. The offense will only be as good as it's weakest link.

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    Re: Great QBs make everyone better

    Good points on this thread.

    Offensive line is also a big factor. For example, while Colin Kaepernick and Russell Wilson certainly deserve praise for the way they have played early in their careers, you can't overlook the fact that both players had two Pro Bowl players on their offensive line last year.

    When I look back at my years as an NFL fan and think about who were the most talented QBs I've seen, one name that is always on my list is Bert Jones. If he had been on the Steelers during his prime, rather than the Colts, I have no doubt he'd have 4 Super Bowl rings and a bust in the Hall of Fame.

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    Re: Great QBs make everyone better

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post

    When I look back at my years as an NFL fan and think about who were the most talented QBs I've seen, one name that is always on my list is Bert Jones. If he had been on the Steelers during his prime, rather than the Colts, I have no doubt he'd have 4 Super Bowl rings and a bust in the Hall of Fame.
    There was a reason why Elway said to the Colts, Hell no I won't go!

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    Re: Great QBs make everyone better

    Peyton Manning has always had great receivers. Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison.
    Yes, both of them are great receivers, but you can't seriously be implying that their careers would have been as stellar with a run of the mill QB. That's just plain silliness.

    I never understood the argument that, a great qb makes everyone else around him better... I don't buy it. Thats just an excuse for the Bradford haters to use.
    Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it any less valid. Also, not everyone who believes it to be true hates Bradford. I certainly don't, but guess what, Bradford is not a great QB...yet. I think he was a great college QB, who has all the tools and the potential to be a great NFL QB, but bad coaching, no talent around him and a lousy front office have held him back. I believe now that the team has a capable owner and a great coach and GM who know how to build a team, he will develop to his full potential.

    But I digress, let's get back to your argument. A great QB is accurate and knows where his receivers need to be in their routes and knows when to deliver the ball. There's no question that that combination of skills will a make a WR perform better. A great QB anticipates the rush and can move around the pocket to avoid sacks and gets rid of the ball quickly. This minimizes sacks and makes the offensive line better. A good passing game opens up the running and makes the running backs better. A great QB is a leader of the team and has the respect of his teammates. They will play harder for him because he demands it of them. Do you honestly think the Jets play as hard for Sanchez as the Colts did or the Broncos do for Manning? I think not.

    And it doesn't apply to just football. It's a valid argument in any real team sports. When I say real, I exclude baseball, because while you have a team, really the game is made up of small individual battles between pitchers and batters.

    In soccer, a great midfielder will absolutely make his offensive and defensive teammates look better. Same with basketball and hockey. You don't honestly believe that players such as Gretzky, Lemieux, Federov, or Jordon, Magic Johnson, or Bird didn't elevate the play of their teammates, do you.

    Anyone that would argue that shows a basic lack of understanding of the core concepts of team sports.
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    Re: Great QBs make everyone better

    I think while a great QB can certainly make the players around him seem better, it can only go so far.
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    Re: Great QBs make everyone better

    Quote Originally Posted by tomahawk247 View Post
    I think while a great QB can certainly make the players around him seem better, it can only go so far.
    Exactly... It does not matter if Brady, Elway or Johnny Unitas threw that prefect seam pass to Cook Sunday. He still would have been stripped and fumbled the ball. The elite QB would have not impacted the end results of that play. The bad QB would have over thrown him in the first place.

    Yodude

    In soccer, a great midfielder will absolutely make his offensive and defensive teammates look better. Same with basketball and hockey. You don't honestly believe that players such as Gretzky, Lemieux, Federov, or Jordon, Magic Johnson, or Bird didn't elevate the play of their teammates, do you.
    There are some real good arguments here for sure. But the point of this post is to not have this debate which is always a good one. But to see if a confirmed elite QB Brady can in fact continue to put up elite numbers after all his playmakers have been removed. You don't see this happen very often to a QB like Brady. Then there is the good QB Bradford who is expected to be elite over night, whom so many question why he is not playing like an elite QB suddenly has all new weapons that have speed and playmaking abilities.

    I expect Brady will have some good to very good games but not be consistent. Bradford will have good games but also have some off the chart big games, something he has never done in his career.

    I'm a Kings fan and a Lakers fan I know them both really well. How many rings did the best hockey player win in LA?

    Here is an interview where Gretzky reflects on what would have happened if he stayed with the Edmonton Oilers.

    Gretzky Trade at 25: What If He Stayed? Video - NHL VideoCenter

    We would have won three more rings. Because the team was better, deeper and THOSE players where committed to winning.


    For the record I get the team sport thing as I have said for years Bradford needs better players around him. He can't do it alone, even the great one found that out.
    Last edited by Rambos; -09-12-2013 at 01:36 PM.

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    Re: Great QBs make everyone better

    As we all know the QB and WR's have to have chemistry between them. The QB has to able to anticipate where said receiver will be. Likewise the receiver needs to know what the QB is looking for. In my mind being on the same page is the most critical part of the QB/WR combo.

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    Re: Great QBs make everyone better

    Quote Originally Posted by Yodude View Post
    Yes, both of them are great receivers, but you can't seriously be implying that their careers would have been as stellar with a run of the mill QB. That's just plain silliness.



    Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it any less valid. Also, not everyone who believes it to be true hates Bradford. I certainly don't, but guess what, Bradford is not a great QB...yet. I think he was a great college QB, who has all the tools and the potential to be a great NFL QB, but bad coaching, no talent around him and a lousy front office have held him back. I believe now that the team has a capable owner and a great coach and GM who know how to build a team, he will develop to his full potential.

    But I digress, let's get back to your argument. A great QB is accurate and knows where his receivers need to be in their routes and knows when to deliver the ball. There's no question that that combination of skills will a make a WR perform better. A great QB anticipates the rush and can move around the pocket to avoid sacks and gets rid of the ball quickly. This minimizes sacks and makes the offensive line better. A good passing game opens up the running and makes the running backs better. A great QB is a leader of the team and has the respect of his teammates. They will play harder for him because he demands it of them. Do you honestly think the Jets play as hard for Sanchez as the Colts did or the Broncos do for Manning? I think not.

    And it doesn't apply to just football. It's a valid argument in any real team sports. When I say real, I exclude baseball, because while you have a team, really the game is made up of small individual battles between pitchers and batters.

    In soccer, a great midfielder will absolutely make his offensive and defensive teammates look better. Same with basketball and hockey. You don't honestly believe that players such as Gretzky, Lemieux, Federov, or Jordon, Magic Johnson, or Bird didn't elevate the play of their teammates, do you.

    Anyone that would argue that shows a basic lack of understanding of the core concepts of team sports.
    What you implied is that this game is a TEAM sport. Which many people seem to forget. They want to blame everything on the QB when everything else fails. If you have someone with no hands whatsoever and runs horrible routes. That QB can throw an accurate throw to him but he drops it and that QB seems like a failure. That lineman that lets guys right by them time after time and sacks the QB. That QB seems like a failure, even the most mobile guys get sacked.

    Everyone needs to contribute and talent is needed in all parts of the field.

    There's a big discussion on if Tom Brady is in trouble right. Why? Because he has nobody to throw to now. Amendola and Verheen is injured.

    Talent is needed everywhere, not only at the QB. I forgot that Bradford plays defense as well.

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    Re: Great QBs make everyone better

    And one more thing, we shouldn't draft a WR in the 1st/2nd round anymore or any other key positions. Its the QB's responsibility to make everyone around him better.

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