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  1. #61
    txramsfan's Avatar
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    Re: Hadley on Martz (long and pretty good)

    atc....you argument has been well documented. Everyone knows how you feel. You would be a fine disciple to the Blind Church of Kurt. They have a strong congregation at the PD board. You may want to check that area out. Lot's of people agree with you over there.


  2. #62
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    Re: Hadley on Martz (long and pretty good)

    atc....you argument has been well documented. Everyone knows how you feel. You would be a fine disciple to the Blind Church of Kurt. They have a strong congregation at the PD board. You may want to check that area out. Lot's of people agree with you over there.
    Ah. I see. I didn't realize that this board was only for the Warner-bashers/Warner haters.

    My mistake.

  3. #63
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    Re: Hadley on Martz (long and pretty good)

    You are forgiven.

  4. #64
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    Re: Hadley on Martz (long and pretty good)

    All I know is that I pretty much don't care that YOU think I'm childish and immature
    But I never called you childish or immature, did I? You told Tx...
    Of course, our team will improve if we fire Martz, while it's been nothing but downhill since Warner's been hurt.. so maybe that makes it a bit easier? Now.. suppose the Rams bottom down to Whiner status... you seriously saying you wouldn't engage in a little "I told you getting rid of Martz would be stupid" talk?You're not human if you wouldn't. How's THAT?
    to which I said...
    Some would say human, others would say childish & immature.
    I never once called you childish or immature. I'm simply pointing out the observation that while some people hold themselves to a lesser standard by succombing to the "human" role of "I-told-you-so" retorts, others try to maintain a higher standard. A standard which does not include "I-told-you-so" arguments to make up for lack of logic, reason & factual analysis.

    I have placed you, nor anyone else, in neither of these two groups. Where you place yourself is up to you.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  5. #65
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    Re: Hadley on Martz (long and pretty good)

    I have placed you, nor anyone else, in neither of these two groups. Where you place yourself is up to you.
    I place myself along the legion of Ram's fans who appreciate what Warner did, and who resent how Martz ruined a good thing... the waste only paralleled by the waste in Indianapolis.. (which, by the way, cost Mora his job.. .and will cost Dungy his job if he doesn't produce a Super Bowl Champion)... who resents the treatment that those of us who appreciated Warner get.. and who resent the holier-than-thou attitude of those who want to erase Warner from Rams' history for whatever reason. (I suspect much of the reason stems from being so anti-Warner that they simply can't address the idea that they may have been wrong about it)

    That's where I place myself. And I think I'm in good company.

  6. #66
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    Re: Hadley on Martz (long and pretty good)

    Quote Originally Posted by atcchris
    I place myself along the legion of Ram's fans who appreciate what Warner did, and who resent how Martz ruined a good thing... who resents the treatment that those of us who appreciated Warner get.. and who resent the holier-than-thou attitude of those who want to erase Warner from Rams' history for whatever reason.
    That's where I place myself. And I think I'm in good company.
    I, too, appreciate what Warner did for this team. He is my favorite all-time Ram, and if I sat down and thought about it, he would probably be my favorite athlete of all-time. Nobody was more disappointed on the day that Warner was released than me. I still hold out hope that he will retire as a Ram. But none of that can cloud the fact that his release was not the proclamation of destruction on this team, that some believe it to be. Faulk is no longer GSOT Faulk. The O-line is no longer the GSOT O-line. The defense is no longer the GSOT defense. Our TE & FB are no longer the GSOT TE & FB. Warner could not have changed any of that. Believe it or not, Martz could not have changed all of that. There are several factors that led to the rise and fall of the GSOT. Warner was not the only factor in the rise, just as Martz was not the only factor in the fall.

    And, honestly, show me an example of "the holier-than-thou attitude of those who want to erase Warner from Rams' history for whatever reason". Nobody on this message board has stated that they want to erase Warner from Rams' history. If you can show me one, then I will stand corrected. But until then, these people only exist in your head.

    Nobody wants to get rid of the memory of Warner or any component of GSOT, for that matter, but I would wager that most are wanting to move forward with what we have.

    You may, and my guess will, disagree with me. Such is your prerogative. And such is the lifeblood of a fan message board.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  7. #67
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    Re: Hadley on Martz (long and pretty good)

    I think Martz took a great team and slowly but surly made it destroyed it. He has poor judgment in many areas especially when it when it comes to personnel selection.

    With the team he inherited he should have won several super bowls. It's time for a change

  8. #68
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    Re: Hadley on Martz (long and pretty good)

    But none of that can cloud the fact that his release was not the proclamation of destruction on this team, that some believe it to be.
    This statement is no more fact than my claim that Warner's release was the beginning of the demise. Actually, that's not my claim, in the first place. My claim is that the decline started with Martz' ego, and CULMINATED in Warner's release. Martz' handling of several personnel decisions, as well as his paranoia and refusal to let his QB lead the team.. his refusal to give him a fair shot in 2003.. that's the CULMINATION of his failures.

    Faulk is no longer GSOT Faulk.
    He wasn't every year since 2001? And despite Martz spending TOP draft picks to "plan" for the day he'd run down, what? We have Jackson now. That's good.

    The O-line is no longer the GSOT O-line.
    No.. why not? And how does a line's play feed off the rest of the game? Again.. where was the plan to make hay while the sun was shining, then reload? We didn't and we didn't.

    The defense is no longer the GSOT defense.
    Our defense performed pretty well last year.. despite neglect in the shoring-up department. More miscalculations on Martz' part.

    Our TE & FB are no longer the GSOT TE & FB.
    Again.. why not?

    Warner could not have changed any of that.
    He wouldn't have needed to in order to give us a shot at an NFC championship last year. He wouldn't have been exposed at Carolina.

    For this year, It is my believe that we would have walked away with this division had Warner been the one leading us...

    Now.. both of the above, however, assume a Mike Martz that isn't. Someone who doesn't let his ego run his decisions. If Warner had been given an honest shot in 2003, would Martz have allowed him to lead the team and usurp Martz' glory? Don't think so.

    There are several factors that led to the rise and fall of the GSOT. Warner was not the only factor in the rise, just as Martz was not the only factor in the fall.
    Never claimed Warner was the ONLY factor in the rise. He was the catalyst, though. You don't do what we did without a QB JUST LIKE HIM. As far as Martz being the "only" factor, perhaps he isn't the SOLE factor, but 99% of the items you mention above go THROUGH him.

  9. #69
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    Re: Hadley on Martz (long and pretty good)

    My claim is that the decline started with Martz' ego, and CULMINATED in Warner's release.
    Well then, let's start there. You suggest that the decline started with Martz' ego. So, upon arrival in '99, Martz and his ego started the decline of a franchise with 9 consecutive losing seasons. This decline started with a SB trophy and then spiraled downwardly into 3 more playoff trips in 4 seasons and another SB appearance. That Martz is a dastardly one, isn't he? And upon Warner's release, the decline has culminated. Well, great, then by definition, we are heading back upwards.

    Look, Martz has made some bone-headed moves, there is no question about that. And, speaking more from my heart, I hate that Warner was released, and there will always be a little resentment towards Martz, whether or not he was the one who pulled the trigger on that. Either way, he is the lightening rod. But to say that the guy is...
    As far as Martz being the "only" factor, perhaps he isn't the SOLE factor, but 99% of the items you mention above go THROUGH him.
    ...I mean that is quite a leap, isn't it? Is he responsible for the economy of this team as well? A lot of those guys that left, did so for bigger money. Does Martz have control over that? Honestly, I don't know, but I don't think so. Does he have a crystal ball to know that every draft pick is going to pan out? No, nor does any other coach. That's why some 1st rounders get cut, and some undrafted FAs make the cut. It's a crap-shoot.

    Bottomline: there are too many factors involved to lay even 99% of the blame at the feet of one man.

    I'd hoped we could at least agree on a concept as basic as that, but I believe now, even that may be the impossible.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  10. #70
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    Re: Hadley on Martz (long and pretty good)

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    A lot of those guys that left, did so for bigger money. Does Martz have control over that?
    you don't know that was the sole reason for leaving. as mentioned in another thread, maybe they left due to his favoritism toward a handful of players, or his player management. it may not have been just about the money. maybe they didn't want to play for Martz anymore and seeing that he has the FO wrapped around his finger and wasn't going anywhere soon, they decided to leave instead.

    he has control over how he treats his players. and when you treat a handful like gold and the rest like something other than gold, then you cause division and a lack of respect.

    as for Warner, I think he wasn't Martz' guy. Martz chose Green, remember? the FO wouldn't let him get rid of Warner after 2000 with the way he was playing, so they got rid of Green. he wanted Bulger and got him. when the opportunity arose to have reason to bench Warner without having the FO question the move, he did so. his chosen guy played well enough to keep Warner on the bench and when the opportunity came along, he got rid of him ( for nothing mind you ). I've never seen a 2 time MVP let go for nothing.

    shoot, we got a 3rd round pick for Gordon for crying out loud. and a 3rd round for Canidate. yet, for a 2 time MVP they get nothing.

    I could live with the decision better is we had received something in exchange.

  11. #71
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    Re: Hadley on Martz (long and pretty good)

    Quote Originally Posted by lakerams
    maybe they left due to his favoritism toward a handful of players, or his player management. it may not have been just about the money
    maybe so...but I can't think of any that left for equal or less money.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  12. #72
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    Re: Hadley on Martz (long and pretty good)

    Key players that left for more money:

    Fred Miller
    Kevin Carter (major?)
    Az Hakim
    Dre Bly
    London Fletcher (Martz wanted to keep him)
    Grant Wistrom
    Mike Guttadaria (spelling his name was tough)

    Key players that were released or left for other reasons:

    Ricky Proehl
    Ryan Tucker

    I'm sure there are others, just no time to figure it out.

  13. #73
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    Re: Hadley on Martz (long and pretty good)

    who in their right mind would trade anything for Warner given his current contract? do you understand the business side of football at all and how it relates to the cap?

    warner had his time in the sun and he made the most of it. good for him and good for the rams. unfortunately, his injuries took their toll and the rams had to move on.

    if you would really rather have warner than bulger at this point in time then wow is all i have to say.

    p.s. when wistrom left, he said the hardest thing about leaving was leaving coach martz.

  14. #74
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    Re: Hadley on Martz (long and pretty good)

    The main problem here is that aside from Martz's acceptable record as a head coach the last few years, the Rams are once again the joke of the NFL. It's not as bad as the late 80's and 90's but it's moving in that direction.

    The team is in disarray, can barely beat the Eagles' 2nd and 3rd stringers, the coach is an absolute head case at this point (what was deal with calling two timeouts before the half last night? I still haven't heard the story on that), the coach has been developing a habit of "throwing players under the bus", and on and on.

    Add that to all of Martz's unorthidox habits that apparently won't ever change, and it's not a good time to be a Rams fan. Does it matter when it started? No, not in the grand scheme of things. But, neither does the Rams, the NFL or the human race if you want to get really philosophical about it. Are the "when's", "why's" and "where's" debatable and conversational? Yes, that's why we're all here.

    We can also debate and discuss what needs to happen to fix the Rams but talk about a conversation that doesn't matter. That conversation is a lot more speculative than debating about what could have been done differently. The Rams need a new DC, special teams players, Little to stay out of prison, the offense to become more balanced, utilize Jackson and Faulk more efficiently, some playmakers on defense and to draft wisely this season. There, now we can all debate about the wish list. Oh, everyone agrees that we need those things? Well, what should we talk about then?

  15. #75
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    Re: Hadley on Martz (long and pretty good)

    From Hadley's site, dated today:

    "Before getting to the notes, I wanted to inform readers that the second part of my breakdown of the Rams front office, is scheduled to be posted tomorrow morning. I apologize for the delay however wanted to have a third confirmation on a few items."
    ClanRam ModCast: Episode Four
    Rams Discussion Right at Your Fingertips!



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