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  1. #1
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Angry Hargrove not doing very good

    I think he might turn into a bust. I realize he is young but has not shown anything.

    2004 Rams sack leaders
    9 Fisher
    7 Little
    5 Lewis
    4 Tyoka
    2 Pickett
    2 Pisa
    2 Arch
    2 Polley
    1 Hargrove 15 games 2 started

    2005 Rams sack leaders
    7 Fisher (With Seattle)
    4 Little (7 games)
    3.5 Arch
    3 Kennedy
    2 Tyoka
    2 Green
    2 Hargrove

    I think we miss Fisher I would never say he is better then Little but he has more sacks last year and this year.
    Fisher 16 sacks last 25 games.
    Little 11 sacks last 23 games.
    Hargrove 3 sacks last 24 games 11 started.
    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -11-18-2005 at 11:39 PM.


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    Re: Hargrove not doing very good

    Hargrove has not been a huge success so far......no question. However, he is only 22, with only 1 year of college football under his belt to go with his rookie year as a backup and the first half of this season. He should be getting ready for the Senior Bowl, but instead he's found himself on the starting line of an NFL team. He has all the physical talent in the world. If he can learn the technique, he will be solid. And at 22, with only half a season as a starter, I don't know that a conclusion can be reached yet.

    Having said that, should Green be seeing more time? Probably so. I'd say it's easy to see that Green has outperformed Hargrove to this point, so maybe a little more seasoning will do Hargrove some good.

    We've only got three DEs on the roster anyway, so it's not like either him or Green will be relegated to the bench. There should be enough time for both.
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    Re: Hargrove not doing very good

    I dont know what you have against Hargrove, but there is not anyone out there that is trying harder than this guy. He's young, the NFL is not like the NBA you cant walk in at his age and dominate from the start. It takes time. He has gotten better as the year has gone on. He has made mistakes with overpursuit, but he's still young and he should learn even more in the offseason.

    It doesnt matter what Fisher is doing in Seattle. The FO made the right decision not to resign him. He wanted more money than they were willing to pay. Besides, what do you want; a guy that has had one good year in his career or a young guy with the potential to be an All Pro DE? I'll take the kid.
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    Re: Hargrove not doing very good

    Quote Originally Posted by RamJackson39
    I dont know what you have against Hargrove, but there is not anyone out there that is trying harder than this guy. He's young, the NFL is not like the NBA you cant walk in at his age and dominate from the start. It takes time. He has gotten better as the year has gone on. He has made mistakes with overpursuit, but he's still young and he should learn even more in the offseason.

    It doesnt matter what Fisher is doing in Seattle. The FO made the right decision not to resign him. He wanted more money than they were willing to pay. Besides, what do you want; a guy that has had one good year in his career or a young guy with the potential to be an All Pro DE? I'll take the kid.
    Made the right decision not to resign him? Look what he is doing in SEATTLE! Thats more than Leonard Little.
    RamsFan16

  5. #5
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Hargrove not doing very good

    Quote Originally Posted by RamJackson39
    I dont know what you have against Hargrove, but there is not anyone out there that is trying harder than this guy. He's young, the NFL is not like the NBA you cant walk in at his age and dominate from the start. It takes time. He has gotten better as the year has gone on. He has made mistakes with overpursuit, but he's still young and he should learn even more in the offseason.
    I have nothing aginst him I agree totaly with what Hub said above Green has clearly outplayed Hargrove and its time for Green to get a shot. Hargrove needs to prove he is a starter before we just continue to live with poor performance from him at that position. You have only 16 games a year this is not the NBA or MLB were you can have a young starter in there beyond 9 games if he is not cutting it now. Every game counts more because there are fewer games then in any other major sport.

    It doesnt matter what Fisher is doing in Seattle. The FO made the right decision not to resign him. He wanted more money than they were willing to pay.
    4 years 10 million sounds cheap for a guy thats in the top 6 in the NFC in sacks.He has earned his money his sack total this year puts him in the top 6 in the NFC. He has 5 more sacks then Little over the last two years. I am not saying he is better then Little but he has been playing good.

    Besides, what do you want; a guy that has had one good year in his career or a young guy with the potential to be an All Pro DE? I'll take the kid.
    You are kidding about only one year right. Last year and this year would be two good years and Fisher just turned 28 he is not old. Lets see do I want 16 sacks today or wait for potential that may never pan out. You are totally off your rocker if you think he has serious potential to be an All Pro DE. Some fans amaze me with their blindness that they can say some one like Hargrove has the potential to be All Pro this early. What have you seen to support such a ridiculous statement this early? I would have liked to keep both but I realize that Martz/FO made a money decision to not spend money on the D at that position. I still think we need to upgrade Hargroves position until we see if he will ever even have potential he has not shown it yet.

    How long do you think it is going to take for your so-called kid to be an All Pro DE? How many more games of his poor play being a liability to our team will I have to set through? It took Fisher and Little both 4 years in the league before they became full time starters and before they both had more then 5 sacks total for the year. Why should Hargrove have a starting job in just his second year did he earn it or are we just being cheap at that position.

    He should be a backup until he proves otherwise. If he doesn’t improve by the end of this year next year we need to consider upgrading that starting position until he is ready if he ever is. If we upgrade and Hargrove proves his self in two or three years he may take over for Little when little starts to decline. If not then at least we did not waist 48 games on a kid that you say has shown All Pro potential after three career sacks in 24 games 11 as a starter.
    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -11-18-2005 at 01:04 AM.

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    Re: Hargrove not doing very good

    Quote Originally Posted by STLRAMSFAN
    I have nothing aginst him
    So why, whenever you decided to make a thread saying he's not doing well, did you make a point to put a smiley by the title? LOL


    Quote Originally Posted by STLRAMSFAN
    4 years 10 million sounds cheap for a guy thats in the top 6 in the NFC in sacks.
    Of course, he wasn't top six in the NFC in sacks when it was time to decide on that contract. Nice job of sneaking some hindsight into your logic.

    In 2004, Fisher finished in the top 15 in the NFC in sacks (top 25 in the league), not because he was a consistent sack artist, but because of a surge late in the season. Through the first 12 games, Fisher had only 3.5 sacks. In the final four games, he accumulated an additional five. The sharp increase towards the end of the season was impressive, but the virtual drought of pressure from him throughout the first 3/4 of the season was not. Most seemed to think the Rams were making the right choice, because even if the Rams resigned him, he'd have gone into camp backing up Hargrove.

    You're critical of Hargrove because he's only produced two sacks in nine games this season. I wonder what your thoughts were last year when Fisher, a veteran starter, produced only three and a half in twelve games.


    Quote Originally Posted by STLRAMSFAN
    I still think we need to upgrade until we see if he will ever even have potential he has not shown it yet.

    ...

    If he doesn’t improve by the end of this year next year we need to consider upgrading that starting position until he is ready if he ever is.
    I agree that he's had a disappointing year, and I also agree that I'd like to see Green get a bit more time. But there are two points I disagree with.

    One, I think you're expecting too much out of a guy who played only two years of college ball and is so young. Some of the league's highest rated prospects sometimes aren't able to make immediate contributions to their team, so expecting a guy as raw as Hargrove is to do so is somewhat unreasonable. He's showed potential and flashes, but needs to develop, and I'm not sure he's going to do that on the bench watching or on special teams.

    Two, the Rams don't have an excess of cap space. What cap space they do have needs to be spent on positions of greater need, and I think the Rams would be hurting themselves if they used some of that cap space to sign another starting defensive end at the expense of other positions, such as defensive back, tight end, interior lineman. Also, unless we're taking a stud defensive end high in the first round, I think it'd be a waste of a draft pick to take a defensive end on the first day. Again, we have more pressing needs, in my opinion, than spending resources upgrading this position.

    But again I'm left to wonder why Kollar doesn't receive any criticism for these kind of complaints. You hear people bash Marmie and his defense all the time, but you rarely hear much about his assistants. Clearly Kurt Schottenheimer has been, well, not much of anything. He convinced the Rams to bring in and bank on Michael Hawthorne and had us trade for Chris Johnson, who really has one bright spot the entire season in his kickoff return. The secondary isn't playing well, yet you never hear Schottenheimer's name, just like you don't hear Kollar's name when people talk about the defensive line, or Vitt's name when linebackers miss coverages or tackles.

    I don't agree with the whole "the buck stops here" mentality in blaming the people in charge, and I have to wonder that if that were really the case, you'd think the best job in the world would be an NFL assistant - when your unit doesn't stand up to par, it's your boss that's blamed.

    Bit of a tangent, but oh well.
    Last edited by Nick; -11-18-2005 at 01:25 AM.
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    Re: Hargrove not doing very good

    I blame Marmie because Marmie has the authority and the duty to correct Kollar's schemes, flaws, coaching, or techniques.. Kollar has to implement Marmie's scheme and style, he has no choice. IF Kollar is not doing a good job - I blame Marmie for not taking corrective action.

    ------------

    After watching a couple game videos from this year, Hargrove's play against the run is a concern.. Teams like to run right at him and overpower him at the point of attack. He's a high energy guy, but at some point you have to produce. Our defense seems to have too many of those guys that are loaded with talent, yet it never translates into production on the field.

    He is young and he is talented - he should be given more time, but not allowed to languish like Damione Lewis.
    Lewis just disappears out there.. and how long has he been doing it. He should have been cut 2 years ago.

    .

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    Re: Hargrove not doing very good

    You are kidding about only one year right. Last year and this year would be two good years and Fisher just turned 28 he is not old. Lets see do I want 16 sacks today or wait for potential that may never pan out. You are totally off your rocker if you think he has serious potential to be an All Pro DE. Some fans amaze me with their blindness that they can say some one like Hargrove has the potential to be All Pro this early. What have you seen to support such a ridiculous statement this early? I would have liked to keep both but I realize that Martz/FO made a money decision to not spend money on the D at that position. I still think we need to upgrade Hargroves position until we see if he will ever even have potential he has not shown it yet.
    No i'm not kidding about one year. At the age of 28 Fisher has been given a chance to prove himself. He's had a surge lately of two sacks a game for 3-4 games I believe. Two of these games were against the Cardinals.

    Hargrove has had classic battles with Walter Jones. Only once was he clearly beaten by the guy that manhandled patrick kerney. This KID is waging war on that side of the line. He's not lazy, no one on this defense playswith as much intensity as this kid.

    Also, Fisher is a liability against the run. For the most part, Hargrove has done wel against it. The only time that he has been beaten is when his momentum makes him overrun the play. You can only learn not to do that on the field.

    Green has played well, there's no doubt. To say he's clearly doing better than Hargrove is IMO a bit of an overstatement. Athough he has pllayed well, their is a difference between being the starter and being the reserve. It stands to reason that the reserve will have pretty good production when he comes in.
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    Re: Hargrove not doing very good

    The secondary isn't playing well, yet you never hear Schottenheimer's name, just like you don't hear Kollar's name when people talk about the defensive line, or Vitt's name when linebackers miss coverages or tackles.
    I've been crying about this guy all year. Why do we keep bringing in guys that havent done anything anywhere? Shottenheimer's secondary was awful in Green Bay and I'm almost certain that at least part of Fisher's horrific play has something to do with Shottenheimer's coverages.
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    Re: Hargrove not doing very good

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Soprano
    After watching a couple game videos from this year, Hargrove's play against the run is a concern.. Teams like to run right at him and overpower him at the point of attack. He's a high energy guy, but at some point you have to produce. Our defense seems to have too many of those guys that are loaded with talent, yet it never translates into production on the field.

    He is young and he is talented - he should be given more time, but not allowed to languish like Damione Lewis.
    Lewis just disappears out there.. and how long has he been doing it. He should have been cut 2 years ago.

    I agree Mr Soprano; Hargrove is a liability against the run and is still very raw. I think that perhaps "The Nutcracker" should be moved to DE in the base package to see if it will help stop the run. Green or Hargrove can be brought in passing situations. I remember all the preseason talk about moving DLew to DE but it never happened. At this point in the season we should try anything to improve the D. Hell, let's try going to a base 3-4 or 4-6 or 4-4 ...........:clanram:
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    Re: Hargrove not doing very good

    Quote Originally Posted by RamJackson39
    Also, Fisher is a liability against the run. For the most part, Hargrove has done wel against it.
    This year with Fisher in the lineup instead of Okeafor, Seattle is ranked 11th against the run at this point.

    Last year at the end of the season we were ranked 23rd.

    I know he's only part of the defensive overhaul the Seahawks had, but he is part of the success, he's playing the run just fine.
    Last edited by Seahawk_For_Life; -11-18-2005 at 12:17 PM.
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    Re: Hargrove not doing very good

    Hargrove has had classic battles with Walter Jones. Only once was he clearly beaten by the guy that manhandled patrick kerney.
    Ah, the world through rose colored glasses. If you asked Walter Jones about Anthony Hargrove, he'd probably say "Who?"

    What is the difference between "beaten" and "clearly beaten"? You either get pressure or you don't. He didn't. And when a DE doesn't get pressure, he's losing. Giving up 284 yards in the running game doesn't reflect a lot of success against Walter in that facet either.

    If you guys are glad to give Fisher up, we're glad to take him.

  13. #13
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Hargrove not doing very good

    Quote Originally Posted by Seahawk_for_Life
    This year with Fisher in the lineup instead of Okeafor, Seattle is ranked 11th against the run at this point.

    Last year at the end of the season we were ranked 23rd.

    I know he's only part of the defensive overhaul the Seahawks had, but he is part of the success, he's playing the run just fine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Large_Ant
    Ah, the world through rose colored glasses. If you asked Walter Jones about Anthony Hargrove, he'd probably say "Who?"

    What is the difference between "beaten" and "clearly beaten"? You either get pressure or you don't. He didn't. And when a DE doesn't get pressure, he's losing. Giving up 284 yards in the running game doesn't reflect a lot of success against Walter in that facet either.

    If you guys are glad to give Fisher up, we're glad to take him.
    I have to agree with the Seahawk fans on this one.
    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -11-18-2005 at 09:45 PM.

  14. #14
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Hargrove not doing very good

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    One, I think you're expecting too much out of a guy who played only two years of college ball and is so young. Some of the league's highest rated prospects sometimes aren't able to make immediate contributions to their team, so expecting a guy as raw as Hargrove is to do so is somewhat unreasonable. He's showed potential and flashes, but needs to develop, and I'm not sure he's going to do that on the bench watching or on special teams.
    I disagree take off your rose colored glasses. I dont expect him to be a starter right now because he is not starter material right now. I would say that is expecting less out of him right now then the people that think we should continue to leave him in there as a starter when he is not producing.

    Two, the Rams don't have an excess of cap space. What cap space they do have needs to be spent on positions of greater need, and I think the Rams would be hurting themselves if they used some of that cap space to sign another starting defensive end at the expense of other positions, such as defensive back, tight end, interior lineman. Also, unless we're taking a stud defensive end high in the first round, I think it'd be a waste of a draft pick to take a defensive end on the first day. Again, we have more pressing needs, in my opinion, than spending resources upgrading this position.
    Between our 4 starting DL I think he has played the worse this year and I believe you are telling me we dont need to upgrade at all on the DL. We could still try to bring Hargrove along but he does not need to be the starter right away.


    Hargrove was a safety in high school and started only 13 games in college. 2003 ruled academically ineligible for the season as junior. 2004 played in 15 games for the Rams. 2005 starter for the Rams. The people that think Hargrove should be starting with his minimal experience at DE are the ones that are expecting too much of him. Why anyone would say he should be the starter when he has not proven to be anything but a liability after 11 games as a starter (2 last year) is crazy. If he ever does develop it will take time and the rest of the team should not struggle while he is learning.
    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -11-19-2005 at 12:01 AM.

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    Re: Hargrove not doing very good

    What is the difference between "beaten" and "clearly beaten"? You either get pressure or you don't. He didn't. And when a DE doesn't get pressure, he's losing. Giving up 284 yards in the running game doesn't reflect a lot of success against Walter in that facet either.
    The difference is this. Of the three times these guys have met as starters, only once did Jones beat him consistently the entire game. Last week. Beofre that, Hargrove had done a nice job of getting the inside track on Joens with running plays. He was alos able to get some prssure in the playoff game and the game in St.Louis. You're not going to find a guy who consistently beats Jones, but I garuantee that Jones knows who Hargrove is.
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