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  1. #16
    r8rh8rmike's Avatar
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    Re: I challenge every naysayer Ram fan to a fight!

    Quote Originally Posted by UtterBlitz
    But certainly you must admit that the Rams are not scoring points, not enough points against the teams that we have played. Come on...Look at the *****. They looked decent against us and then they completely disintegrated against the Eagles. The Cards look like crap in week one and then played us closely. Why is our offense incapable of scoring big on these teams? Why do we fail in the red zone? The offense has not looked good against two bad teams. Do you really want to see what we will look like against a good defense?
    No getting around this fact. Naysayer, realist,optimist, whatever, we need to score more points. The offense has got to match the intensity of the defense. Does that sound surreal or what??
    Last edited by r8rh8rmike; -09-22-2005 at 01:16 AM.


  2. #17
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: I challenge every naysayer Ram fan to a fight!

    Yes I see weaknesses but I also think that they are mostly players not playing up to their ability. Special teams are still a concern. Marc has not shown he is able to put teams away. Marc has been sacked a lot but some of those he held the ball entirely to long they were coverage sacks and he should have thrown it away. The OL has had problems I would like to see Terrell in there if Timmerman is unable to play at a high level. Tucker was a mistake at RT but I am not ready to say the same about Sapaia until after I see his second start. I see problems in the secondary. I see problems with our LBs on the short passes and the yards after the catch they are not getting to the receiver quick enough. I would like to see Hedgecock over Manu as a lead blocker for Jackson. I don’t think this offense has found its identity yet and figured out how to coincide with what Jackson brings to the table. I also think we need to not forget about Faulk and find away to utilize him more he still has some elusiveness. Hargrove was extremely over hyped people were going crazy over him in preseason. He has yet to prove it on the field. He needs to step it up he is young just turned 22 and may take time to develop or he may never develop. He is athletic but can he put it together is the question. He may have an occasional good game but consistency will be the key before we can say he’s good.
    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -09-22-2005 at 01:47 AM.

  3. #18
    UtterBlitz's Avatar
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    Re: I challenge every naysayer Ram fan to a fight!

    Nice post STLRAMSFAN. Valid points. Let's see what sort of rebuttal Avenger brings back.
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  4. #19
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: I challenge every naysayer Ram fan to a fight!

    Quote Originally Posted by STLRAMSFAN
    Yes I see weaknesses but I also think that they are mostly players not playing up to their ability.
    I think its too early to generalize like that after only two road games.

    Marc has not shown he is able to put teams away.
    I don't see how this is Bulger's fault exclusively.

    Marc has been sacked a lot but some of those he held the ball entirely to long they were coverage sacks and he should have thrown it away.
    I agree that he should throw the ball away more often.

    The OL has had problems I would like to see Terrell in there if Timmerman is unable to play at a high level.
    Timmerman is playing himself into shape after three operations. If Terrell is going to be a starter, I think it will be for Nutten.

    Tucker was a mistake at RT but I am not ready to say the same about Sapaia until after I see his second start.
    I think he's just keeping the seat warm for Barron.

    I see problems in the secondary.
    Who doesn't? But there is some hope with the play of Groce and Ivy.

    I see problems with our LBs on the short passes and the yards after the catch they are not getting to the receiver quick enough.
    Disagree there. There have not been a lot of YAC due to LBs not tackling.

    I would like to see Hedgecock over Manu as a lead blocker for Jackson.
    Maybe so.

    I donít think this offense has found its identity yet and figured out how to coincide with what Jackson brings to the table.
    I think this theory (which many have thrown out there) is a bunch of hooey. Again, the team has played but two games, and both were on the road where (even with Faulk) the offense has rarely been as successful. Call me Monday if the offense still looks sluggish.

    I also think we need to not forget about Faulk and find away to utilize him more he still has some elusiveness.
    I'd like to see some screens to Faulk on 2nd or 3rd and long. That could go a long way towards slowing the pass rush.

    Hargrove was extremely over hyped people were going crazy over him in preseason. He has yet to prove it on the field. He needs to step it up he is young just turned 22 and may take time to develop or he may never develop. He is athletic but can he put it together is the question. He may have an occasional good game but consistency will be the key before we can say heís good.
    I think you're way overboard here. While Hargrove's production (4 tackles, no sacks, 1 fumble recovery) have been somewhat pedestrian in the first two weeks, its not like he's been horrible. He's a young player who should only get better with time and experience.

  5. #20
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Smile Re: I challenge every naysayer Ram fan to a fight!

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    I think it’s too early to generalize like that after only two road games.
    I am not generalizing I broke a lot of them down for you. The question to me was "Certainly you must see some weaknesses this season". Yes I do everyone can see weaknesses. Do I think we will get better? Yes.


    I don't see how this is Bulger's fault exclusively.
    Have you ever seen a game were Bulger has come back from a huge deficit. Answer: Yes.
    Have you ever seen a game where Bulger has buried a team? Answer: No.
    Have you ever seen a game were he had a chance to burry a team and threw an interception. Answer: Yes.

    So what is it when he is able to come back from a huge deficit its Bulger? But when he cant put a team away and he throws interceptions instead then its the rest of the team is that the way it goes?

    I never said the rest of the team doesn’t fail in this area from time to time but I have never seen Bulger succeed in burying a team. Biggest margin victory last year 13 points. Biggest loss 30 points.

    I agree that he should throw the ball away more often.
    Here you are admitting he should throw the ball away which is a problem with Bulger. Now you are agreeing with me on a part that has a lot to do with him throwing an INT instead of being able to put a team away.


    Timmerman is playing himself into shape after three operations. If Terrell is going to be a starter, I think it will be for Nutten.
    That might be but what I was talking about was if Timmerman was unable to go at a high level. Last I heard his injuries have hampered his play. If he is healthy and playing like he is capable of no Terrell wont start in his place but he might be able to crack the lineup in place of Nutten like you said.

    I think he's just keeping the seat warm for Barron.
    I agree Barron will be the man but no need to rush him if we give Sapaia the chance and he proves he can handle the job.

    Who doesn't? But there is some hope with the play of Groce and Ivy.
    I am glad you can agree on the obvious.

    Disagree there. There have not been a lot of YAC due to LBs not tackling.
    You are stretching the quote again I never said a lot of YAC I said this:
    I see problems with our LBs on the short passes and the yards after the catch they are not getting to the receiver quick enough.

    Five yard passes are turning into 10 yard gains they are not getting there quickly and stopping them I even remember watching Claiborne make a tackle from behind on a little 5 yard pass.


    Maybe so.
    Maybe so? Do you think Manu is a better FB then Hedgecock? Are you an optimist or a realist?

    I think this theory (which many have thrown out there) is a bunch of hooey. Again, the team has played but two games, and both were on the road where (even with Faulk) the offense has rarely been as successful. Call me Monday if the offense still looks sluggish.
    Here is what I said:
    I don’t think this offense has found its identity yet and figured out how to coincide with what Jackson brings to the table.

    So what you are saying in your own words is we looked sluggish. If we looked sluggish in our first two games according to you then wouldn’t you say since this is a new year and a brand new RB with a different style of running that maybe they need to find their identity since they have not been sluggish yet this year according to you.

    I'd like to see some screens to Faulk on 2nd or 3rd and long. That could go a long way towards slowing the pass rush.
    Agree.

    I think you're way overboard here. While Hargrove's production (4 tackles, no sacks, 1 fumble recovery) have been somewhat pedestrian in the first two weeks, its not like he's been horrible. He's a young player who should only get better with time and experience.
    How can you say I am way overboard when you back it up with everything I stated in my post? You said he was somewhat pedestrian. I will be nice and give that to you even though he had 0 tackles the last game and the only time his name was called was during a fight. I never said he was horrible although he was not good either. I am the one that brought up that he is only 22 and may take time to develop. All I said is you cant say he is going to be good when he is not proving it on the field and that he needs to do it consistently to be declared good. The only thing I did say that you did not reiterate is that he was over hyped in the preseason which he was people saw him against Pace and was talking about how good he was and what a tandem Little and Hargrove was going to be.


    So I think it was a ridiculous quote by you to say I am way overboard when all you did to back up your claim was reword and repost the exact same content. LOL

    Here is what I said:
    Hargrove was extremely over hyped people were going crazy over him in preseason. He has yet to prove it on the field. He needs to step it up he is young just turned 22 and may take time to develop or he may never develop. He is athletic but can he put it together is the question. He may have an occasional good game but consistency will be the key before we can say he’s good.

    Sound familiar its what you called overboard then repackaged and reposted.
    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -09-23-2005 at 01:43 AM.

  6. #21
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: I challenge every naysayer Ram fan to a fight!

    No Response.

    STLRAMSFAN - 1
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    Are you and Incognito sharing the same anger management counselor.

  7. #22
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: I challenge every naysayer Ram fan to a fight!

    The problem with your argument on all fronts is that you manipulate the relevant statistical pool to make your points.

    When talking of the Rams offense and Hargrove, you seem to think that two games is a statistically significant sample that is sufficient to support a hypothesis. I disagree. If we reach the halfway point of the season and Hargrove is still putting up pedestrian numbers or the offense is still sluggish, I would agree with your analyses. However, after two games (particularly two road games), I don't think you can draw many meaningful conclusions. Thus, while I may agree with some of your observations, I find your conclusions to be premature, at best.

    As for the point about Bulger not being able to put teams away, I again disagree.

    In 2003, Bulger lead the Rams to 4 wins of 17 points or more including blowouts of Atlanta (36-0) and Minnesota (48-17).

    So... did he somehow forget how to put teams away? Or, would a more rational explanation be that other factors (defense, special teams, for example) had an impact on the Rams' margin of victory in 2004.

  8. #23
    UtterBlitz's Avatar
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    Re: I challenge every naysayer Ram fan to a fight!

    Bulger has thrown a few interceptions while the offense is trying to score points late in the game to get a win, and those interceptions frustrate me since a safe throw could keep them moving. Bulger will throw into double or triple coverage trying to force things. It is a fine line. Some throws are risky and you have to throw them and it is on the receivers to go get the ball and fight for the catch.

    I am not ready to throw Bulger under the bus just because we are not seeing big wins at the moment. He can move the team up the field. Play calling is just as important, or maybe more important, to scoring than the QBs performance.

    I am not ready to give up on Hargrove this easly in the season either. He has the will, stength, and talent. I think he is still heading up the learning curve and the stats will show that later in the year.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  9. #24
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Smile Re: I challenge every naysayer Ram fan to a fight!

    Let me start off by saying I don’t think these two games are indicative of what our players or team is going to be like for the rest of the year. But I think most everyone here believes we have more talent as a team then what we showed in our first two games.

    As for it being two road games why do we play road games if all everyone talks about is home games?
    You know there is no rule that says teams cant look good on the road and if they don’t ever they will be watching playoff games from their home.

    You really are having a hard time getting it with Hargrove. I keep saying the same thing as you as far as he is young and will take time to develop. I said that he has great athleticism. I also said he needs to put it altogether on a consistent basis before we can say he is good which he has not done yet . I want to see more then one game of good play he needs to have a string of games. I also said he might never be able to put it together believe it or not there have been people with all the tools that could not put it together. You on the other hand must have Nostradamus type powers because you seem to know 100% that this guy is going to be good. His first few games are concerning the way he played. I have not given up on him but everyone in preseason was talking about how good the tandem of Little and Hargrove was going to be to me he has not proven it out and that is over hyped until he improves his play. The way everyone was talking he would be good out of the shoot well it did not happen. His current play has been over hyped maybe he will turn out good but we don’t know yet.

    As for Bulger and 2003:
    It was 3 wins of 17 or more points in 2003 not 4 like you stated.
    It was 0 wins of 14 or more points in 2004.


    I agree that there are other factors for putting a team away just like you proved with the two games you picked as examples it was not Bulger that put them away it was Defense and Marshal. What I am saying is he has thrown INT’s when he has had opportunities to put a team away. You your self even said you would like to see him throw it away more. That’s why MM did not trust him in the playoffs to go for the TD instead of kick the FG and send it in to OT.

    It’s amazing last year he can have a game like he did against the Seahawks and come from behind and its all about Bulger. But he is unable to put a team away last year and it’s all about the team. He did not show it last year and has yet to show it this year. I think he can come back or keep it close but I want to see him develop that instinct to put a team away. Sometimes that requires not throwing the INTs and waiting for you opportunities to bury a team.


    Atlanta at St. Louis 2003 (Doug Johnson starting QB No MIKE VICK)
    Atlantas Record going into the game 1-4 with 4 straight losses. Atlanta finished the season 5-12.

    This game is hardly an example of Bulger putting a team away. Read the information from the game. Sounds like the D put this one away they had more points then Atlanta’s offense by their self.

    Veteran Aeneas Williams forced two early turnovers as the Rams outclassed the Atlanta Falcons 36-0Monday night. Atlanta managed only 209 yards in St. Louis' first shutout in two years.
    It was the Rams' first home shutout since 1993, when they played in Anaheim.
    "Give credit to the defense," star receiver Torry Holt said. "A goose egg!"

    St. Louis (3-2) won its ninth straight home game and handed the Falcons (1-5) their first shutout defeat since 1993. In a span of four plays in the third quarter, the Rams had three sacks. They never allowed Atlanta, ranked 27th in total offense, to threaten to get Coach Dan Reeves his 200th career victory.

    The Falcons have lost five in a row and are in desperate need of a healthy Michael Vick. Johnson, his replacement, made several critical mistakes and the St. Louis defense even recorded a safety when Leonard Little nailed T.J. Duckett trying to run out of the end zone in the third quarter.

    It was the fourth safety the Falcons have yielded this season.

    Travis Fisher went 74 yards with an interception of Kurt Kittner's pass with 1:33 left to close out the rout.

    Jay Feely attempted a 60-yard field goal at the end of the first half, but Richard Angulo of the Rams blocked it. Otherwise, the Falcons were stymied by the Rams' suddenly strong defense.

    "That's probably the worst game as a team I've ever seen in my life," Johnson said.


    Minnesota at St. Louis 2003
    Minnesota was 1-4 in their last 5 games coming into the game. Minnesota finished the last 10 games of the season 3-7.

    Bulger 1 TD 1 INT that led to a Viking score Marshall 3 TDs this is hardly an example of Bulger putting a team away. Sounds like Marshall and the D put this team away.

    Faulk had 108 yards on 17 carries and scored on runs of 18, 5 and 7 yards. He also concocted a 41-yard end-around pass from Isaac Bruce to Dane Looker that set up one of Faulk's touchdowns.
    "I can't wait to get home to hear them say, 'Marshall, Marshall, Marshall' on TV," coach Mike Martz said.

    The Rams had a pair of one-play touchdown drives created by turnovers.Faulk broke free off left tackle for the game's first score, and Marc Bulger scored on a 12-yard scramble after Tyoka Jackson intercepted a Daunte Culpepper pass that was tipped by Tommy Polley, making it 34-17 in the third.
    The defense scored a third quick touchdown when Aeneas Williams scooped up a fumble by Culpepper and returned it 90 yards in the fourth quarter. Williams' 12th career touchdown was set up by the third of four sacks by Leonard Little, returning to the lineup after missing a month with a torn pectoral muscle.
    "The guy does it every single week," Jackson said. "He missed four weeks, and if he wasn't rusty he'd have gotten six sacks."
    Bulger also was impressive with his arm, limiting mistakes after suffering 10 interceptions in the previous four games. He shook off a second-quarter pickoff by Brian Williams that led to a Vikings touchdown and was 15 for 20 for 222 yards and one touchdown, again emphasizing Torry Holt.
    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -09-24-2005 at 04:33 PM.

  10. #25
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: I challenge every naysayer Ram fan to a fight!

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    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -09-24-2005 at 03:48 PM.

  11. #26
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: I challenge every naysayer Ram fan to a fight!

    So, if the Rams succeed, but Bulger's stats aren't that great, he gets no credit.

    If the Rams don't succeed, its Bulger's fault, regardless of how the rest of the team plays.

    That makes sense.

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  12. #27
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Smile Re: I challenge every naysayer Ram fan to a fight!

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    So, if the Rams succeed, but Bulger's stats aren't that great, he gets no credit.

    If the Rams don't succeed, its Bulger's fault, regardless of how the rest of the team plays.

    That makes sense.

    AvengerRam 10
    STLRAMSFAN -10
    You are really backpedaling now. I never said Bulger should get no credit for a win because it is rare that a team can win without a solid contribution from their QB and that may come not in passing yards but in 0 INTs.

    I think Bulger is a good fit for this team and I think he is a good QB but all I have said is I want to see him be able to put teams away when he has a chance. It will come back to bite him if all our games are close.

    I will give Bulger credit for the monster comeback last year. I have said all along he could come back but has a hard time putting them away. But the two examples you gave me was not Bulger putting those teams away. 1 TD and 1 INT for a touchdown I donít think thatís what you would call a QB putting a team away even if its a blowout.

    STLRAMSFAN -13
    AvengerRam -13
    Looks like we are going to OT.

  13. #28
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: I challenge every naysayer Ram fan to a fight!

    I won the coin flip!

    Woo-hoo!!!!



    I have a feeling that Bulger will demonstrate the ability to put a team away in less than 24 hours.

  14. #29
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Smile Re: I challenge every naysayer Ram fan to a fight!

    Darn you probably slipped them a two-headed coin I want to challenge the coin flip.

    I can’t believe I agreed with you on the original post and said I could not argue with the following.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    They'll tell us how the rookie inactives in game 2 prove that the Rams had a bad draft...

    They'll tell us that the offense is not only playing badly, but won't improve any time soon...

    They'll continue to bash Mike Martz for not running Steven Jackson enough, taking early timeouts, and an array of other things...
    You definitely like to argue your point as much as I do mine.


    I hope you are right about Bulger I would like nothing more then to see him have a couple TD passes and 0 INTs with a drive that just buries the other team. I would also like to see the DL show they are not a fluke.

    Lets hope for a blast from the past type game. Lets see them turn it around and get rolling this season.

  15. #30
    UtterBlitz's Avatar
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    Re: I challenge every naysayer Ram fan to a fight!

    Good debate guys. I am glad I called you in STLRAMSFAN. Good stuff.

    I am sad to hear how many times Aeneas name was mentioned in the big wins coming from the defense stepping up. I miss that guy.

    I am ready for Sunday. Go Rams!!!
    :clanram:
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