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  1. #1
    RamsSB99's Avatar
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    If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Vermeil got all the great players on offense.

    In 1999 he had assembled a team of Warner, Faulk, Bruce, Holt, Pace, Timmerman, Nutten, Gruttadaruia, and Miller all either in the prime or playing at a high level. Look at the offensive line and skill players that Vermiel gave to Martz.

    1999 Offensive Line:
    Pace LT
    Nutten LG
    Gruttadaruia C
    Timmerman RG
    Miller RT

    Even our kicker was a ProBowelr and a guy that went by the name of Money Jeff Wilkins.

    On the bench we had Tony Horne (great return guy), Az-Hari Akim(great return guy), Ricky Proehl, Andy McCollum, Ryan Tucker, and James "The Hammer" Hodgins

    For TE's we had Roland Williams, Jeff Robinson, and Ernie Conwell.

    That was a great OL and skill players it had two MVP's of the league and at least 7 ProBowlers in total.

    All these players were there in 1999 when the GSOT era started. Then Martz got to take the reins of this team in 2000. I think most coaches could succeed with these players given to them.


    The defensive line in 1999 had 34.5 Sacks between.
    Kevin Carter DE
    D' Marco Farr DT
    Ray Agnew DT
    Grant Wistrom DE

    Leonard Little, Dre Bly, and Jeff Zgonina was also on the team coming off the bench.

    We had London Fletcher at MLB.


    Vermeil even left here and took a poor KC team and turned their franchise around. Martz left here with the cupboards bare.

    I can't think of any great players that Martz added to the team and left for Linehan. Bulger has been questionable of late he looks average at best. Jackson is decent but has been injury prone and has not put together a complete season both in the running game and blocking.



    Look at all those great players that Vermeil turned over to Martz. Then look at the mess Martz turned over to Linehan. Linehan by no means did a good job of improving the mess but it was a mess that Martz turned over.
    Last edited by RamsSB99; -12-25-2008 at 04:09 PM.


  2. #2
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    A bit of revisionism there.

    Vermiel did not draft Bruce. In fact, he publicly criticized Bruce as a "so called superstar" in 1997-98 when Ike was suffering from a hamstring injury.

    Vermiel did not want Warner to start. In fact, Martz talked him into it after Vermiel suggested signing Jeff Hostetler.

    Vermiel did not design the offense. Martz did. Without Martz, Vermiel does not come up with the GSOT.

  3. #3
    RamsSB99's Avatar
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Without Martz there still could have been a high potent offense with the group given. Without the calibur players that Vermeil the HC had it don't matter who the OC is you don't have a shot at a high power offense. I am sure there are other offensive coordinators that could have had a high scoring offense with that group. Vermeil was the head coach and made the final decision and decided on Warner. He also may not have drafted Bruce but was smart enough to know he was needed for the team to succeed. He assmembled the OL which was excellent and he had two great backup OL in Tucker and McCollum who eventually became starters for Martz when he was coach. He had Az-Hakim and Tony Horne both great returners and part of the GSOT as 4th and 5th receivers with big YAC's. He also had one of the best third receivers I can remember in Ricky Proehl. He also brought Marshall Faulk who was MVP of the league. Without Faulk there is no GSOT. He was a big catalyst to the GSOT. He was a great blocker, receiver, and runner in his prime.


    Not only did he assemble the GSOT here then he went to a bad KC team and assembled another high potent offensive team.
    Last edited by RamsSB99; -12-25-2008 at 04:30 PM.

  4. #4
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    I've always thought that Vermiel received too much credit for the Super Bowl win and that Martz received too much blame for the team's demise.

    Building the GSOT was a group effort. Martz was a big part of it.

    The deconstruction of the roster was a group failure. Martz was not as big a part of it as some want to believe.

    In the end, I am grateful for what DV did for the Rams, but I still am not thrilled aout how he left. He was supposed to be riding off into the sunset. Instead, he rode west to KC.

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    RamsSB99's Avatar
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Lets look at Vermeil and Martz teams offense the last four years they were HC:

    2002:
    KC 467 points 1st in NFL
    Rams 316 points 23rd in NFL

    2003:
    KC 484 points 1st in NFL
    Rams 447 points 2nd in NFL

    2004:
    KC 483 points 2nd in NFL
    Rams 319 19th in NFL

    2005:
    KC 403 points 6th in NFL
    Rams 363 11th in NFL


    Vermeil as HC of KC had a better offense the last four years they both coached.

    Suprisingly Linehan first year 2006:
    367 points 10th in NFL better then Martz 2002, 2004, & 2005 seasons.
    Last edited by RamsSB99; -12-25-2008 at 05:47 PM.

  6. #6
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Pretty convenient that you left out the Martz-lead Ram offenses in 2000 and 2001.

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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Vermeil certainly deserves credit, but lest ye forget, vermeil was 4-12 in 1998. The same people that are crucifying shaw and ziggy forget that they were both instrumental in making THE MOVE that was the critical reason we won the super bowl. A #2 and #5 for Marshall Faulk. Vermeil may have supported that move, but he didnt make that move. He also didnt sign timmerman alone.

    If Trent Green doesnt get hurt, we might win it all anyway. But if the front office doesnt make the Faulk trade, there is no way in the world that we win it all. Not a chance.

    ramming speed to all

    general counsel


  8. #8
    RamsSB99's Avatar
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Lets not sugar coat this thing Vermeil took over a bad Rams team and brought in the players and coaches that won it all. Then he went to KC and brought in players and coaches that performed better then the Martz team the last four years. With all the good starters and bench players that he turned over to Martz. In Martz last four years of coaching the Rams were 33-31 and Vermeil during that time coaching for KC 38-26. Vermeils KC team had a better offense in his last four years then Martz. His first year he did not 2001 but one year after taking over as head coach of the KC team which was poor when he took over he had a better offense every year then Martz. Martz got one of the best gigs any football coach has ever walked into. You look at the players he was given and who was on the bench. The bench guys that wound up playing for Martz was Bly, Little, Ryan Tucker, Zgonina, Hodgins, Hakim, Proehl, etc.

    Vermeil was given a mess. Martz was given one of the most talented teams ever. Linehan was given a mess.
    Last edited by RamsSB99; -12-26-2008 at 12:29 AM.

  9. #9
    jkramsfan Guest

    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsSB99 View Post
    Lets not sugar coat this thing Vermeil took over a bad Rams team and brought in the players and coaches that won it all. Then he went to KC and brought in players and coaches that performed better then the Martz team the last four years. With all the good starters and bench players that he turned over to Martz. In Martz last four years of coaching the Rams were 33-31 and Vermeil during that time coaching for KC 38-23. Vermeils KC team had a better offense in his last four years then Martz. His first year he did not 2001 but one year after taking over as head coach of the KC team which was poor when he took over he had a better offense every year then Martz. Martz got probably one of the best gigs any football coach has ever walked into. You look at the players he was given and who was on the bench. The bench guys that wound up playing for Martz was Bly, Little, Ryan Tucker, Zgonina, Hodgins, Hakim, Proehl, etc.

    Vermeil was given a mess. Martz was given one of the most talented teams ever. Linehan was given a mess.
    so I take it you didn't like Martz much, I give credit to the actual players more than the coach for the GSOT,neither coach had any ideal that Warner would turn out the way he did.
    Last edited by jkramsfan; -12-25-2008 at 11:46 PM.

  10. #10
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    I think Martz did an okay job as an OC. I did not think he did a good job as a HC. I think he helped aid in the deterioration of the team before its time. I could not stand his misuse of the clock or his timeouts and those really only started being an issue when he was HC. In 1999 when he was the OC I do not remember near the amount of misuse of timeouts or clock management. I think every aspect of the team other then offense wound up going south under Martz. We screamed about poor OL, poor ST, and poor defense for the last three years of Martz time here. I don't think he makes a good HC. I think he did a decent job as an OC here but as Vermeil proved when he went to KC and took over as HC other OC's can do just as good if not better then Martz. Vermeils offense in KC finished first in the NFL twice and second another time in his last four years in KC. All four of those years his OC outscored Martz offense here. That team did not have the quality of players that we had during the GSOT years either 1999-2001.

    Martz did okay as OC here but he was not the genius or the best OC ever that some people made him out to be. Martz's area is OC and it should be limited to just that. I think many other OC's can do just as good if not better as has been proven.
    Last edited by RamsSB99; -12-26-2008 at 12:32 AM.

  11. #11
    jkramsfan Guest

    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    a couple of years ago I would not have agreed with you on your last point,but seeing what Martz has done at his last 2 stops really validates what you are saying.

  12. #12
    Ram Dragoon's Avatar
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    What happened I think is that GSOT was the perfect storm.

    You had a concentration of talent which adding M. Faulk was the finaly peace to a perfect offense. K. Warner was truely a bolt from the blue--who would have thought....

    The Rams had a creative mad man as OC, M. Martz, that saw the talent. And like any kid handed explosives got to play with his "toys".

    Lastly, there was Vermeil that molded and jelled 1999 Rams in to GSOT. So I argue that GSOT was perhaps a once in a life time event. More as I look at the league I see conventional "old school" football schemes and rules-of-thump. It takes a special set of circumstances for something like the 1999 Rams to come around.

    Just look at Dallas...a collection of all the stars J. Jones could buy. On paper, the 2008 Cowboys are the equal or better of the 1999 Rams if one where to look at the start of their prospective seasons

  13. #13
    RealRam's Avatar
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Vermiel did not design the offense. Martz did. Without Martz, Vermiel does not come up with the GSOT. -- AvengerRam
    Totally in agreement here.

    Yes, Coach Vermeil gathered most of the weapons. Credit where credit is due.

    Yes, Coach Martz had plenty of toys to play with. I seriously doubt, however, that any other coach in the NFL would have achieved as much as MM did with such an arsenal, including SB XXXIV.

    The 500 points per season, the records, the innovative usage of a truly unique GSOT. That took much madness. And that's where I believe most of the credit ought to be attributed: Madman Mike.

  14. #14
    RamsSB99's Avatar
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Dragoon View Post
    Lastly, there was Vermeil that molded and jelled 1999 Rams in to GSOT. So I argue that GSOT was perhaps a once in a life time event.
    It almost happened twice for Vermeil when he went to KC and took over a poor team. He assembled a team with lesser players but still after his first season scored over 400 points and in the rest of his 4 seasons finished 1st twice and 2nd once in NFL offense. You maybe right that the GSOT is once in a life time. But what New England did last year scoring 589 points was 49 points better then the GSOT's best year.
    Last edited by RamsSB99; -12-26-2008 at 01:20 AM.

  15. #15
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Quote Originally Posted by RealRam View Post
    Yes, Coach Martz had plenty of toys to play with. I seriously doubt, however, that any other coach in the NFL would have achieved as much as MM did with such an arsenal, including SB XXXIV.
    Vermeil as HC of KC had an OC and offense that was #1 in offense 2 out of 3 years with Eddie Kennison at WR. I don't think its to far of a stretch to say another offensive coordinator could have had just as much success and a high scoring attack with the Rams as Martz had. Sure it might have looked different but they still could have done just as good given the players. Do you remember how many sacks, fumbles, and INT's Martz offense produced?

    If Martz was such an offensive guru then why four years in a row did Vermeil's KC Chiefs offense perform better?

    Look at New England last year 589 points a game 49 points greater then GSOT.

    To say that another OC could not have done it is to ignore New England, KC, and what Martz did after 2001. IMO its possible and highly likely given the talent several OC's could figure out chuck it to Bruce, Holt, Hakim, Proehl, and if their not open dump the ball to Faulk and he will get you 10 yards as a safety valve.
    Last edited by RamsSB99; -12-26-2008 at 01:52 AM.

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