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  1. #16
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    The 2007 Pats where a shadow of the Rams 1999 run. Not knocking what the Pats did last year, but their scheme didnt resemble GSOT. First the the Pats had a solid running game. Second they had a very good offensive line--how many times did Brady get tackled?

    That Pats where not prone to fielding 5-wideouts. Where as the Rams could and would strike from all angles (I just loved that tackle eligable formation of the RAMs), the Pats could keep Brady alive in the pocket longer to hit his targets. The Rams--well they had M. Faulk, and if thats isn't a diffence what is


  2. #17
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Dragoon View Post
    The 2007 Pats where a shadow of the Rams 1999 run. Not knocking what the Pats did last year, but their scheme didnt resemble GSOT. First the the Pats had a solid running game. Second they had a very good offensive line--how many times did Brady get tackled?

    That Pats where not prone to fielding 5-wideouts. Where as the Rams could and would strike from all angles (I just loved that tackle eligable formation of the RAMs), the Pats could keep Brady alive in the pocket longer to hit his targets. The Rams--well they had M. Faulk, and if thats isn't a diffence what is
    1999-2001 GSOT years we had a good OL it wasnt until Martz got rid of the two RT's given to him Miller and Ryan Tucker that we started going down hill.

    The Ram year I was comparing to 2000 (Rams best 540 points to NE's 589 points):

    Warner sacked 20 times
    Brady sacked 21 times

    Rams 23 INT's
    NE 9 INT's

    Patriots threw for 50 TD's
    Rams threw for 37 TD's

    Running game
    NE 1849 yards
    Rams 1843 yards
    Last edited by RamsSB99; -12-26-2008 at 02:29 AM.

  3. #18
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    I dont buy the molded and jelled anything. Marshall Faulk was the difference in that team, along with the emergence of warner. Martz designed the offense. Vermeil deserves credit for leadership, but can anyone tell me with a straight face that they think the Rams win the title without faulk? There was nothing there to "jell" without faulk. Vermeil had a 4-12 team. Without faulk, even with any other additions you want, they may have been improved, but who knows whether vermeil would have even made it through another season.

    Vermeil was NOT a different coach in 1999 than he was in 1998 but the players on the 1999 team, led by faulk, were a lot better. Vermail gets some credit for that, but so does the front office. Without martz and his offense, we dont win and you also have to give martz, rather than vermeil, the bulk of the credit for coaching warner as it was martz's offense, not vermeils by their own admission.

    ramming speed to all

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  4. #19
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Quote Originally Posted by General Counsel View Post
    I don't buy the molded and jelled anything. Marshall Faulk was the difference in that team, along with the emergence of Warner. Martz designed the offense. Vermeil deserves credit for leadership, but can anyone tell me with a straight face that they think the Rams win the title without Faulk? There was nothing there to "jell" without Faulk. Vermeil had a 4-12 team. Without Faulk, even with any other additions you want, they may have been improved, but who knows whether Vermeil would have even made it through another season.

    Vermeil was NOT a different coach in 1999 than he was in 1998 but the players on the 1999 team, led by Faulk, were a lot better. Vermail gets some credit for that, but so does the front office. Without Martz and his offense, we don't win and you also have to give Martz, rather than Vermeil, the bulk of the credit for coaching Warner as it was Martz's offense, not Vermeil's by their own admission.

    Ramming speed to all

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    E x a c t l e e e e e e e e
    Last edited by RealRam; -12-26-2008 at 03:19 PM. Reason: Format

  5. #20
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsSB99 View Post

    If Martz was such an offensive guru then why four years in a row did Vermeil's KC Chiefs offense perform better?
    You remain selective in your view of history. The Rams under Martz (1 year as OC, 2 as HC) scored 500+ points three years in a row. No other team has done that.

    Look at New England last year 589 points a game 49 points greater then GSOT.
    Yeah... and look how they sustained that. They'd need to score 103 this week to hit 500 again. Why? Mainly injuries. Kind of like when Martz had to deal with injuries to Faulk and Warner after the 2001 season.

  6. #21
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsSB99 View Post
    Look at New England last year 589 points a game 49 points greater then GSOT.
    The problem with this comparison is the Pats didn't bench any of the starters after they were blowing teams out, but the 99 Rams did bench players. The Pats would also go for it on 4th down instead of kicking the FG, so 49 more points isn't that much when you break it down and look at how the Rams were coached compared to Belichick running up the score because he was mad at the world because of spygate. In fact I recently re-watched Warner, Faulk, Bruce and others on the bench in the third quarter during the Cincy game in 99 because it was a blowout. If I remember correctly we also didn't play many if any key starters in the last game of the 99 season when we lost to Philly because we already had the number one seed locked up.

    Point being is it's not really a fair comparison because we weren't running up the score like we could have.

    The fact that Vermeil wanted Hostetler over Warner and almost lost Bruce completely says to me he gets enough if not too much credit for the GSOT already.
    BRUUUUUUUUUUUCE


  7. #22
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    A bit of revisionism there.

    Vermiel did not draft Bruce. In fact, he publicly criticized Bruce as a "so called superstar" in 1997-98 when Ike was suffering from a hamstring injury.

    Vermiel did not want Warner to start. In fact, Martz talked him into it after Vermiel suggested signing Jeff Hostetler.

    Vermiel did not design the offense. Martz did. Without Martz, Vermiel does not come up with the GSOT.
    True that DV did not draft Bruce, but he did light a fire under him that burned so hit he actually cried at the pinnacle of his career in 99 when he almost single handedly destroyed the *****.

    Not true that DV did not want Warner to start. In fact, it was DV that convinced Martz that Warner would be fine as the backup to Green. Martz wanted to bring in his old frined Paul Justin to be the backup, but when DV wouldn't promise Justin he would be #2 in front of Warner, he chose the Raiders instead. Also, Vermeil's interest in Hostetler was not as a starter. It was for depth and the reason Hostetler didn't end up signing was because once again DV would not hand him the starting job.

    Vermeil didn't design the offense, but neither did Martz. Martz did not bring a new offense with him in fact. It was the same offense the Rams had run since at least Ernie Zampese was the OC back in the 80's. Jerry Rhome ran it before Martz. Vermeil grew up in it as a coach and knew it inside and out too. Martz did bring some of his own wrinkles, but the designer was Gillman/Coryell and Vermeil would go on with Al Saunders to run the same offense in KC to great heights as well.

    It's hard to say that without Martz the GSOT does not happen. Maybe, maybe not. But for sure without Warner, Faulk, Holt, Bruce, Hakim and that O-line it doesn't.

  8. #23
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Vermiel did not light a fire under Bruce. Bruce already had the second highest yardage total in a season long before Vermiel came along and publicly insulted him.

    I don't know where you got the idea that Vermiel wanted to sign Hostetler to be Warner's backup. I have never read that from any other source. Sounds made up.

    As for Martz's offense being merely the Zampese offense....yeah, right... with another five or six hundred plays added to playbook.
    Last edited by AvengerRam; -12-27-2008 at 10:09 PM.

  9. #24
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Well, we disagree.

    And, not made up. I got it from many years of reading about it from many sources, including the Miklasz, Gordon and Thomas forums. Had it been up to Martz, Paul Justin, not Kurt Warner, would have been the guy the Rams would have rallied around and played good football after Green went down. Actually, I'm not sure where you ever got that Vermeil wanted to rally around Jeff Hostetler instead of Kurt Warner from. I've never read that from any source. I've only read that DV was interested in bringing him in as insurance and that Hostetler ultimately turned them down because he wanted assurances DV wouldn't give him.

    You underestimate the thickness of Zampese's playbook I'm afraid. It's the same offense. Zampese was one of Martz biggest mentors.

  10. #25
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsSB99 View Post
    Vermeil got all the great players on offense.

    In 1999 he had assembled a team of Warner, Faulk, Bruce, Holt, Pace, Timmerman, Nutten, Gruttadaruia, and Miller all either in the prime or playing at a high level. Look at the offensive line and skill players that Vermiel gave to Martz.

    1999 Offensive Line:
    Pace LT
    Nutten LG
    Gruttadaruia C
    Timmerman RG
    Miller RT

    Even our kicker was a ProBowelr and a guy that went by the name of Money Jeff Wilkins.

    On the bench we had Tony Horne (great return guy), Az-Hari Akim(great return guy), Ricky Proehl, Andy McCollum, Ryan Tucker, and James "The Hammer" Hodgins

    For TE's we had Roland Williams, Jeff Robinson, and Ernie Conwell.

    That was a great OL and skill players it had two MVP's of the league and at least 7 ProBowlers in total.

    All these players were there in 1999 when the GSOT era started. Then Martz got to take the reins of this team in 2000. I think most coaches could succeed with these players given to them.


    The defensive line in 1999 had 34.5 Sacks between.
    Kevin Carter DE
    D' Marco Farr DT
    Ray Agnew DT
    Grant Wistrom DE

    Leonard Little, Dre Bly, and Jeff Zgonina was also on the team coming off the bench.

    We had London Fletcher at MLB.


    Vermeil even left here and took a poor KC team and turned their franchise around. Martz left here with the cupboards bare.

    I can't think of any great players that Martz added to the team and left for Linehan. Bulger has been questionable of late he looks average at best. Jackson is decent but has been injury prone and has not put together a complete season both in the running game and blocking.



    Look at all those great players that Vermeil turned over to Martz. Then look at the mess Martz turned over to Linehan. Linehan by no means did a good job of improving the mess but it was a mess that Martz turned over.
    So you want to throw out the injury card regarding Jackson and totally ignore that Warner and Faulk played injured and missed numerous games during Martz tenure....

  11. #26
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominating D View Post
    So you want to throw out the injury card regarding Jackson and totally ignore that Warner and Faulk played injured and missed numerous games during Martz tenure....
    You make no sense at all. Trying to relate what I said about Jackson that has no bearing here. It was in a totally different thread.

    What I said was: "It don't matter what stats he puts up if he starts being out for 3 or 4 games or playing at half speed due to injury it will kill this team."


    It really has nothing to do with this thread the whole thing about this thread is without Vermeil there is no GSOT. He is the one that hired the coaches and obtained the players. Martz would not have had as good of an offense without the HC in charge who hired him getting the players. Martz had exceptional players and he had the luxury of having a good defense under Vermeil and that Vermeil left him. I thought Martz did okay as OC but he is not the Guru people try to make him out to be. There are other OC's that could have done what Martz did with that much talent acrosee the board offense, defense, and bench, IMO. What has now also come up has been Martz leaving the cupboards bare.

    The reason I said that is because we don't have anyone but Jackson and this is not the team that Martz took over we don't have as good of an OL and two good starters like Ryan Tucker and Andy McCollum coming off the bench. We don't have Bruce, Holt, Proehl, and Hakim in their prime. We have very little talent onj this team thanks in part to Martz. This is not a good team at all. We need our only yes I said only star offensive player we have left to be healthy. We have many weaknesses and free agents on the defensive side as well that need to be addressed. Bulger as of late has been below average and Holt and Pace have not been above average. Several of our offensive players are on a fast decline. I still believe Jacksons best years are ahead of him and he is our lone offensive star right now. We need him because we have no one else.


    What I have been saying is Vermeil is the one that assembled these coaches and he is the one that got the players. Martz did not have the authority to get players he was an OC. Vermeil had the final say just as he did when he went to KC and turned that team around. Vermeil hired the coaches and players there as well and after one year on the job he went on to have a higher scoring offense then Martz in the next four years. Vermeil also assembled one of the best defenses we have had in a long while. Go back and read the original post we had a great defense that year as well. We even had Little coming off the bench. Who gets all the credit for the defensive players we had in 1999 is it Martz as well. People can bring up things about Vermeil and Bruce all they want who truly knows what the relationship was? The bottom line is Vermeil kept Bruce and got the team turned around. You have to remember we had nine losing seasons in a row before 1999. Vermeil in his third year mad us a Supebowl winner by his decisions. He had so many good players on that team and a lot of the bench players came in and were good starters under Martz. Such as Little, Bly, Hodgins, and others. We had a load of talent and it's amazing how it vanished under Martz.
    Last edited by RamsSB99; -12-28-2008 at 03:37 AM.

  12. #27
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramsbruce View Post
    The problem with this comparison is the Pats didn't bench any of the starters after they were blowing teams out, but the 99 Rams did bench players. The Pats would also go for it on 4th down instead of kicking the FG, so 49 more points isn't that much when you break it down and look at how the Rams were coached compared to Belichick running up the score because he was mad at the world because of spygate. In fact I recently re-watched Warner, Faulk, Bruce and others on the bench in the third quarter during the Cincy game in 99 because it was a blowout. If I remember correctly we also didn't play many if any key starters in the last game of the 99 season when we lost to Philly because we already had the number one seed locked up.

    Point being is it's not really a fair comparison because we weren't running up the score like we could have.

    The fact that Vermeil wanted Hostetler over Warner and almost lost Bruce completely says to me he gets enough if not too much credit for the GSOT already.
    I think its valid you just choose to ignore it. It did happen they had the most points scored ever beating out Minnesota (1998). We were not resting players in 2000 we were 10-6 and thats when we scored the most points during the GSOT era.
    Last edited by RamsSB99; -12-28-2008 at 03:25 AM.

  13. #28
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsSB99 View Post
    I think its valid you just choose to ignore it. It did happen they had the most points scored ever beating out Minnesota (1998). We were not resting players in 2000 we were 10-6 and thats when we scored the most points during the GSOT era.
    I didn't ignore anything, you think it's valid, and I don't. I didn't say it didn't happen either. The fact remains that the Pats ran up the score on purpose last year and when you break it down, 49 more points doesn't mean much.
    BRUUUUUUUUUUUCE


  14. #29
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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    I've brought this up in the past and for the most part I agree with the title of your thread, RamsSB99.

    I understand the different dynamics of what made up those fabulous years. I do think it was an entire team effort throughout the organization for the GSOT to come about. I also think Faulk was a very "KEY" ingredient.

    To me, the bottom line of your thread title is this:

    After the 1998 seasson Vermeil realized that his tony banks led offense was crap. Deep down he knew he needed help. Shaw pushed him along with a strong suggestion that he find that help.

    Vermeil went to Mobile, Alabama after the senior bowl to interview Mike Martz. Vermeil came away from the interview very impressed. So impressed that he hired Mike Martz. Vermeil, alone, interveiwed and hired Mike Martz.

    In that respect Vermeil deserves the credit. Vermeil was the master motivator and the glue that held all the pieces together.

    During SB34 it was Vermeil on the headset talking to Mike Martz and telling him to "stay aggressive Mike, stay aggressive"

    Years later, with the Rams knocking on the door in a playoff game vs. carolina, rather than stay aggressive, Martz went conservative and decided to settle for a tie.



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    Re: If not for Vermeil there is no GSOT. People don't give Vermeil the credit due.

    not sure if I agree with that mate.

    Vermeil was summoned to Sedona after the 98 season and was read the riot act and I do believe he was told who to hire.

    Might be wrong though

    I do agree that without Faulk we would never have turned it around.


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