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Thread: If the Rams continue to win, don't be that guy.

  1. #16
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    Re: If the Rams continue to win, don't be that guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by RosieJones View Post
    So you're totally confident that Sam Bradford will be 100% (or as close as can be expected after this type of injury) next year?

    Look at the way Robert Griffin III played to start the season after a similar injury. It certainly seemed like his knee gave him problems physically and mentally, both in his passing and in the sense that it looked like he panicked a bit under direct pressure.
    You don't think Bradford might be affected in a similar way?

    1. What Avenger said.

    2. My comments were based on the assumption that Bradford comes back healthy and recovered.
    I was not implying that Bradford might not need a few weeks of playing to shake off the rust and get comfortable. I was simply saying I'm looking forward to Bradford leading a more experienced and mature team after our young players have had another year of development under their belts.

    If the team starts out playing next year anywhere near the level they exhibited against the Colts, Bradford will have no problems easing back into his role...he will not have to carry the team like it seems he has had to in some of the earlier games this season.

    Not quite sure where the confusion arose with my statements but whatever.

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    Re: If the Rams continue to win, don't be that guy.

    First I want to state Sam is the better talent. As a side though, if Clemons is better leader that could impact the teams success. You can't base the everything on stats. If the offense performs better with Clemons then it's something to take in consideration. I'd rather have wins than a QB that passes for 300 yards a game.

    This does not mean I think Clemons is the answer (he is 1-2 after all). The point is stats don't tell the whole story all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by svh01 View Post
    First I want to state Sam is the better talent. As a side though, if Clemons is better leader that could impact the teams success. You can't base the everything on stats. If the offense performs better with Clemons then it's something to take in consideration. I'd rather have wins than a QB that passes for 300 yards a game.

    This does not mean I think Clemons is the answer (he is 1-2 after all). The point is stats don't tell the whole story all the time.
    That seems to be an effort at justifying the assertion that Clemens is responsible for future wins, even if his numbers are sub-par. Just throw out a nebulous term like "leadership" and ignore the stats.

    Sorry... not buying that one.
    Last edited by AvengerRam; -11-14-2013 at 10:12 PM.

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    Re: If the Rams continue to win, don't be that guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by svh01 View Post
    First I want to state Sam is the better talent. As a side though, if Clemons is better leader that could impact the teams success. You can't base the everything on stats. If the offense performs better with Clemons then it's something to take in consideration. I'd rather have wins than a QB that passes for 300 yards a game.

    This does not mean I think Clemons is the answer (he is 1-2 after all). The point is stats don't tell the whole story all the time.
    If Sam had failed to convert those chances to win, I doubt you'd be talking about his leadership.

    Except for the spectacular two plays by Tavon, The Rams pass attack and RZ efficiency have fallen quite a bit even with a vastly improved defense and run game that Bradford saw little of. Just as the lack of that support undermined Sam, it has helped keep Clemens from being the weakest link. No doubt in my mind that The Rams would be 6-4 & in the wild card hunt if Bradford were healthy. The improvements that made The Rams unexpectedly competitive in those first two KC-led games were coming before Sam's injury so I think crediting KC with that leaderly spark is unfounded; it's just really unfortunate that Sam doesn't get the benefit of them when he has , as you say, the better talent to maximize that benefit.

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    Re: If the Rams continue to win, don't be that guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    That seems to be an effort at justifying the assertion that Clemens is responsible for future wins, even if his numbers are sub-par. Just throw out a nebulous term like "leadership" and ignore the stats.

    Sorry... not buying that one.
    But what if he has the.....(gulp)....."IT factor"??
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: If the Rams continue to win, don't be that guy.

    Poor performance by RG3 is because he was not allowed to play preseason against his wishes, not because of his injury. He didn't look rattled or unstable against the Bears. Bradford was never that mobile to begin with. I had the same injury and it did not effect me in anyway one year later.

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    Re: If the Rams continue to win, don't be that guy.

    I am!!! As a member of the military, I know good leadership directly effects team success. At the end of the game the only stat that counts is who has the most points. Leadership is the foundation to which all success grows. Mike Vick is possibly the most talented QB in football, but Payton Manning and Drew Breese show him up every week because of their ability to lead their team effectively.
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    Re: If the Rams continue to win, don't be that guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Those commentators are likely to simply presume that, if the Rams' winning percentage with and without Sam is comparable, then his loss did not impact performance (anyone with a rudimentary understanding of statistics knows that this conclusion does not necessarily follow, but sports commentators often lack such an understanding.
    That's true, but it's also true that raw numbers don't always tell the whole story, either. We have seen teams where the quarterback racks up tons of yards, but the team still loses because the offense is good at getting yards between the 20s but falters in the red zone or can't convert third and fourth downs or only runs up such high passing totals because they're always playing from behind. The best argument for a quarterback's play is always going to be the game tape. That said, I do think Bradford is the better quarterback, and the main factors in our improved results have more to do with the other aspects of the team that you mentioned--especially the running game and run defense, which were both disastrous for us early in the season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    That's true, but it's also true that raw numbers don't always tell the whole story, either. We have seen teams where the quarterback racks up tons of yards, but the team still loses because the offense is good at getting yards between the 20s but falters in the red zone or can't convert third and fourth downs or only runs up such high passing totals because they're always playing from behind. The best argument for a quarterback's play is always going to be the game tape. That said, I do think Bradford is the better quarterback, and the main factors in our improved results have more to do with the other aspects of the team that you mentioned--especially the running game and run defense, which were both disastrous for us early in the season.
    Let's be clear here... The statement that "stats don't tell the whole story" is not inconsistent with anything I have stated.

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    Re: If the Rams continue to win, don't be that guy.

    People that bash on Sam Bradford at this point bore me.

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    Re: If the Rams continue to win, don't be that guy.

    While we are chatting about KC & Sammy I just want to say I really never want to see Sam take off and run over the line of Scrimmage again... Never, ever, ever... etc! Before the season started Sammy was talking about his being a better Scrambler than many thought etc. That just did not work out very well, he should stick in the pocket as much as possiable or roll out I like his ability at this especially to his right. But running for first downs with his history of knee troubles is not smart imho. I want this guy to make it through the seasons from now on so he needs to use his noggin' not his leggs. Work on his foot work all he wants and his sprint outs but not this crazy leggs stuff. He will go down again and again if he thinks he is a scrammbler! I never want to hear him talk about this again...

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    Re: If the Rams continue to win, don't be that guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    That seems to be an effort at justifying the assertion that Clemens is responsible for future wins, even if his numbers are sub-par. Just throw out a nebulous term like "leadership" and ignore the stats.

    Sorry... not buying that one.
    Not my point. The point is it's more than just stats. For example when a pass is completed,etc. You can dress up numbers to say what u want them to say. I.E. Sam's superior stats haven't lead to many wins. Also some of our best game are when Sam doesn't have to much. Lastly u act as if intangibles doesn't exist. Not everything is quantifiable by a stat.

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    Re: If the Rams continue to win, don't be that guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    If Sam had failed to convert those chances to win, I doubt you'd be talking about his leadership.

    Except for the spectacular two plays by Tavon, The Rams pass attack and RZ efficiency have fallen quite a bit even with a vastly improved defense and run game that Bradford saw little of. Just as the lack of that support undermined Sam, it has helped keep Clemens from being the weakest link. No doubt in my mind that The Rams would be 6-4 & in the wild card hunt if Bradford were healthy. The improvements that made The Rams unexpectedly competitive in those first two KC-led games were coming before Sam's injury so I think crediting KC with that leaderly spark is unfounded; it's just really unfortunate that Sam doesn't get the benefit of them when he has , as you say, the better talent to maximize that benefit.
    Not what I was saying. however we don't know what WOULD have happened if Sam was in there. The point was stats don't tell the whole story.

  14. #29
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    Re: If the Rams continue to win, don't be that guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by svh01 View Post
    Not my point. The point is it's more than just stats. For example when a pass is completed,etc. You can dress up numbers to say what u want them to say. I.E. Sam's superior stats haven't lead to many wins. Also some of our best game are when Sam doesn't have to much. Lastly u act as if intangibles doesn't exist. Not everything is quantifiable by a stat.
    Sigh.

    Let's try this again...

    I never said that stats are everything.

    However, if Kellen Clemens were to post a 68.0 passer rating for the season (compared to Sam's 90.9), but the Rams were to have a winning record under Clemens (they were 3-4 with Sam starting), that would NOT lead to the conclusion that Clemens is a better leader.

    It would probably mean that the Rams ran the ball better, or played better defense, or made fewer mistakes, or some combination of these and other (non-QB related) factors.

    Of course, whether its you or someone else, some Rams fans (and non-Rams fans) will be "that guy" who argues that if the Rams win, its because Clemens (to use HUbison's favorite term) has "it."

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    Re: If the Rams continue to win, don't be that guy.

    Glad Clemens has stepped up and I won't be one of these idiots who think Clemens is better than Bradford. The only thing that really pisses me off is that the team decided to step up right when Bradford got injured.

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