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  1. #1
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    As I do my periodic rounds through the various message boards, checking on the pulse of the Rams' fans of the cyber-world, I am not surprised to find some who like to focus on "what might have been."

    This morning, after Michael Vick's stellar MNF performance, I've seen some propose that he should have been a Ram. While the premise of that notion -that he was available for a reasonable price - is not established, I'll go with the hypothetical and assume the Rams could have obtained him.

    Add to that the other "shouldas": Terrell Owens, Randy Moss and Vincent Jackson (again, I'll presume, though I don't know for a fact, that the Rams could have obtained their services).

    Had any of these players been signed by the Rams, I would have backed them. I really have no other choice. I've been a Rams fan for over 30 years, and I'm not going to change that simply because the Rams might obtain a player I don't like. I've suffered through the difficulty pulling for guys like Leonard Little, Kyle Turley and Jason Sehorn. My loyalty to the team will always supercede my feelings about individual players.

    That stated, I have absolutely zero regret that the Rams passed on the players listed above. I don't care if Michael Vick wins the MVP, T.O. and Randy Moss go to the Pro Bowl, and Vincent Jackson leads the NFL in receiving next year. I'm not going to play the shoulda/coulda/woulda game when it comes to players who I have no respect for on a personal level.

    I like the team we have now. It easy to pull for players like Sam Bradford, Steven Jackson, Chris Long, James Laurinaitis, Ron Bartell and O.J. Atogwe. They are not only good players, they are good "citizens" of the NFL.

    Does that mean I'd always favor a "four pillars" approach? No. For example, if the Rams passed on DeSean Jackson (pre-Spags, I know) because of perceived character issues, rather than an assessment of talent, then that was a mistake.

    To me "four pillars" are among the qualities the team should look for, but they are not the only factors.

    But there are certainly cases in which character issues are too great for my comfort zone. If the Rams were 7-2 right now with Michael Vick throwing the ball to Terrell Owens, I would be happy for team's success, but I'd still have a lot of trouble cheering for Vick and T.O.

    To some, its blasphemy to disagree with the "win at all costs," "just win, baby," "winning isn't everything, its the only thing" mentality.

    At this point in my life as a fan, though, I want more than just wins. I want to like the team as a whole. I don't want a loudmouth jerk like Rex Ryan at the helm. I don't want a QB with Vick's past. I don't want WRs with personalities like Moss, T.O., Ochocinquo, I don't want a guy with multiple DUIs.

    I want it all. I want the 1999 Rams - a team that not only won, but was comprised of seemingly good guys.

    What's wrong with that?


  2. #2
    tomahawk247's Avatar
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    The thing with Vick and these other players is that they need an established team to be successful. Vick workswell at the Eagles because he came into a team that was already regularly winning the division. The Rams didn't have that. He was also able to sit for the majority of the season behind a pro bowl QB. Again, the Rams couldnt have done that. I would say that it's a stretch to assume that Vick would be playing aswell for the Rams as he is for the Eagles right now.

  3. #3
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomahawk247 View Post
    The thing with Vick and these other players is that they need an established team to be successful. Vick workswell at the Eagles because he came into a team that was already regularly winning the division. The Rams didn't have that. He was also able to sit for the majority of the season behind a pro bowl QB. Again, the Rams couldnt have done that. I would say that it's a stretch to assume that Vick would be playing aswell for the Rams as he is for the Eagles right now.
    That may be, but its beside my my point.

    Even if he would have had a good season if he was starting for the Rams, I'm glad he's not our QB.

  4. #4
    RamsInfiniti's Avatar
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    [QUOTE=AvengerRam;368808]As I do my periodic rounds through the various message boards, checking on the pulse of the Rams' fans of the cyber-world, I am not surprised to find some who like to focus on "what might have been."

    This morning, after Michael Vick's stellar MNF performance, I've seen some propose that he should have been a Ram. While the premise of that notion -that he was available for a reasonable price - is not established, I'll go with the hypothetical and assume the Rams could have obtained him.

    Add to that the other "shouldas": Terrell Owens, Randy Moss and Vincent Jackson (again, I'll presume, though I don't know for a fact, that the Rams could have obtained their services).

    Had any of these players been signed by the Rams, I would have backed them. I really have no other choice. I've been a Rams fan for over 30 years, and I'm not going to change that simply because the Rams might obtain a player I don't like. I've suffered through the difficulty pulling for guys like Leonard Little, Kyle Turley and Jason Sehorn. My loyalty to the team will always supercede my feelings about individual players.

    That stated, I have absolutely zero regret that the Rams passed on the players listed above. I don't care if Michael Vick wins the MVP, T.O. and Randy Moss go to the Pro Bowl, and Vincent Jackson leads the NFL in receiving next year. I'm not going to play the shoulda/coulda/woulda game when it comes to players who I have no respect for on a personal level.

    I like the team we have now. It easy to pull for players like Sam Bradford, Steven Jackson, Chris Long, James Laurinaitis, Ron Bartell and O.J. Atogwe. They are not only good players, they are good "citizens" of the NFL.

    Does that mean I'd always favor a "four pillars" approach? No. For example, if the Rams passed on DeSean Jackson (pre-Spags, I know) because of perceived character issues, rather than an assessment of talent, then that was a mistake.

    To me "four pillars" are among the qualities the team should look for, but they are not the only factors.

    But there are certainly cases in which character issues are too great for my comfort zone. If the Rams were 7-2 right now with Michael Vick throwing the ball to Terrell Owens, I would be happy for team's success, but I'd still have a lot of trouble cheering for Vick and T.O.

    To some, its blasphemy to disagree with the "win at all costs," "just win, baby," "winning isn't everything, its the only thing" mentality.

    At this point in my life as a fan, though, I want more than just wins. I want to like the team as a whole. I don't want a loudmouth jerk like Rex Ryan at the helm. I don't want a QB with Vick's past. I don't want WRs with personalities like Moss, T.O., Ochocinquo, I don't want a guy with multiple DUIs.

    I want it all. I want the 1999 Rams - a team that not only won, but was comprised of seemingly good guys.

    What's wrong with that?[/QUOTE]

    Nothing!

  5. #5
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    I would agree on most of the things you say. I don’t like Rex Ryan bravado. I rather have Bradford I’m excited to see what the future holds for him. Vicks on top of his game but he is in his 30’s. But like you said you can’t always pass on talent. It is a football team and I love high character people but it’s not Church so you will have to take some guys that have some issues it just a matter of what can you accept.
    :ramlogo:

  6. #6
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    You're right AV! I like the character of our team..... just waiting for them to develope that winning attitude, where's they can go up against any opponent and put 'em on notice that we're out to beat you! We're bringing it, See if you can stop us mentality.
    It'll be much more worthwhile when our guys turn into winners!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  7. #7
    C-Mob 71's Avatar
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    Hmmm, I really don't feel like dragging this up again, but I will just state that I believe Michael Vick paid his debt to society, both with time in prison and with his own personal fortune. I am absolutely behind giving people second chances, and I think Mike Vick is doing a wonderful job with the chance that Andy Reid and the Eagles gave him. I would have been proud of the Rams and proud of Michael Vick had he been wearing horns this year.

    That said, I love Sam Bradford, and if trading for Vick meant drafting Suh over Bradford, then that is something I wouldn't be able to support. But that comes from the age of Vick, not something that he is remorseful for and has paid dearly for.


    Also I think TO has grown up tremendously since his time with the Eagles and Niners. He may have a big mouth and a big ego, but he doesn't break the law, doesn't get suspended, and now I think we can put to bed him being a locker room cancer and a QB killer. See him support Romo in Dallas, not hearing a peep out of him in Buffalo- despite the media's greatest attempts, and now he is playing great- and his QB is struggling and he is "sharing" balls with 85.

    My thoughts on Vincent Jackson are documented and will not be brought up again until he is a free agent.

    So in closing, I totally disagree with you AV!

  8. #8
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Mob 71 View Post
    Hmmm, I really don't feel like dragging this up again, but I will just state that I believe Michael Vick paid his debt to society, both with time in prison and with his own personal fortune. I am absolutely behind giving people second chances, and I think Mike Vick is doing a wonderful job with the chance that Andy Reid and the Eagles gave him. I would have been proud of the Rams and proud of Michael Vick had he been wearing horns this year.
    You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but wouldn't you rather have someone who never did anything that required the giving of a "second chance"?

    That said, I love Sam Bradford, and if trading for Vick meant drafting Suh over Bradford, then that is something I wouldn't be able to support. But that comes from the age of Vick, not something that he is remorseful for and has paid dearly for.
    Maybe he's remorseful, or maybe he just is sorry he was caught, or maybe he, to this day, does not understand that what he did was wrong. We're not in a position to say for certain.

    I agree, though, that Vick's age is a factor, as are the number of hits he takes due to his style of play.

    Also I think TO has grown up tremendously since his time with the Eagles and Niners. He may have a big mouth and a big ego, but he doesn't break the law, doesn't get suspended, and now I think we can put to bed him being a locker room cancer and a QB killer. See him support Romo in Dallas, not hearing a peep out of him in Buffalo- despite the media's greatest attempts, and now he is playing great- and his QB is struggling and he is "sharing" balls with 85.
    Again, you're entitled to your opinion, but do you really think he'd quietly share with the likes of Danny Amendola, Brandon Gibson and Laurent Robinson?

    One of Bradford's greatest assets his his willingness and ability to spread the ball around. Do you really think T.O. wouldn't have made that more difficult?

    My thoughts on Vincent Jackson are documented and will not be brought up again until he is a free agent.
    My thoughts on him are well-documented as well. For the right price, I would have taken a chance on him, but I do not regret the Rams' decision to pass on him. If he could be acquired as a FA for a reasonable price, I would not necessarily object, though I would be concerned. Heck, even if you forget the DUIs, what kind of player sits out 8 weeks?

    So in closing, I totally disagree with you AV!
    Not totally.

  9. #9
    Bar-bq's Avatar
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    I'm just Glad I didn't take a four pillars approach to my fantasy team this week.

  10. #10
    First Call Roger is offline Registered User
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    When Devaney drafts WRs like Keenan Burton, Brooks Foster, Donnie Avery (over DeSean Jackson), Mardy Gilyard, etc. etc. the Rams have no choice but to take chances on guys who might have baggage. All of those guys were drafted by Devaney and none have contributed (Foster and Burton are gone). The 1999 Rams roster included three players (major contributors) who had "issues" before coming to the team and things worked out OK in 1999. Sometimes you take a chance on talented players and often times it pays off. The model franchise of the past decade, the Patriots, has brought in guys like Corey Dillon, Randy Moss, and others and have succeeded very well.

  11. #11
    Bralidore(RAMMODE)'s Avatar
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    The whole "Player ___ could be playing for the Rams" just comes with the territory. I've been reading that the Rams could have had Vick (when in fact anyone could have had him) but were too timid, not willing to take risk, etc etc. It never ends.

    I don't mind Vick as long as he's keeping his nose clean and I'm glad the NFL has seemingly reclaimed one of its prime time athletes as good as he has ever been. But if the debate is a young Vick or Bradford then give me Bradford all day and twice on Sundays.

  12. #12
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    The reason I'm glad we passed on players like Vick, Moss, Owens and VJax to an extent is because I think our priority is to build a winning franchise and not just achieve a winning record.

    Call me crazy but I would rather my Rams go 4 and 5 as a team then to have announcers talking about how Vick is the sole reason the Rams are 7 and 2. Yes Bradford is our franchise quarterback but I still think it is clear to most that while he may be leading the team he is not carrying it on his shoulders.

    I also think the Four Pillar argument is misunderstood.

    It is my understanding that when they went to rebuild the team they needed to clear out a lot of players, change the mindset and create a foundation of the four pillars. Once this is done ( and I believe it is done) then it is ok to embrace a player here and there that needs a second chance and may not currently meet all four pillars.

    It's the difference in Moss going to Oakland and Moss going to the Pats. Same player but two drastically different results.

    So I can see us drafting or picking up a guy with a little history... he just has to be right for the system.

    Last but not least, for me, I have seen enough in my life that I don't expect players to be role models. Because none of us truly know what is in the heart and mind of any of them. What Vick did was terrible but he has paid a price and maybe he is no longer the same person... at the same time Laurinatis seems like a "salt of the earth" type person but who knows maybe he tortures little kittens in his spare time.

    In the end I'm on board with about 97% of the decisions Devaney and Spags have made.

  13. #13
    First Call Roger is offline Registered User
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctious View Post
    The reason I'm glad we passed on players like Vick, Moss, Owens and VJax to an extent is because I think our priority is to build a winning franchise and not just achieve a winning record.

    Call me crazy but I would rather my Rams go 4 and 5 as a team then to have announcers talking about how Vick is the sole reason the Rams are 7 and 2. Yes Bradford is our franchise quarterback but I still think it is clear to most that while he may be leading the team he is not carrying it on his shoulders.

    I also think the Four Pillar argument is misunderstood.

    It is my understanding that when they went to rebuild the team they needed to clear out a lot of players, change the mindset and create a foundation of the four pillars. Once this is done ( and I believe it is done) then it is ok to embrace a player here and there that needs a second chance and may not currently meet all four pillars.

    It's the difference in Moss going to Oakland and Moss going to the Pats. Same player but two drastically different results.

    So I can see us drafting or picking up a guy with a little history... he just has to be right for the system.

    Last but not least, for me, I have seen enough in my life that I don't expect players to be role models. Because none of us truly know what is in the heart and mind of any of them. What Vick did was terrible but he has paid a price and maybe he is no longer the same person... at the same time Laurinatis seems like a "salt of the earth" type person but who knows maybe he tortures little kittens in his spare time.

    In the end I'm on board with about 97% of the decisions Devaney and Spags have made.
    Drafting Donnie Avery instead of DeSean Jackson was a MAJOR mistake by Devaney. Jackson is a Pro Bowl player, and Avery (when healthy) is nowhere near. Hiring Shurmur as OC was a mistake. The lack of mid to late round picks having any impact means the drafts have not been particularly good either particularly when you factor in how high in each round of the past three years the Rams have been drafting. When you pick first overall, you should be able to pick a guy like Bradford since no one is picking before you. All in all, the ultra conservative, unimaginative offense under Shurmur, the lack of major contributions from many draft picks, etc, helps one to understand the 7-34 record under Devaney.

  14. #14
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by First Call Roger View Post
    Drafting Donnie Avery instead of DeSean Jackson was a MAJOR mistake by Devaney. Jackson is a Pro Bowl player, and Avery (when healthy) is nowhere near. Hiring Shurmur as OC was a mistake. The lack of mid to late round picks having any impact means the drafts have not been particularly good either particularly when you factor in how high in each round of the past three years the Rams have been drafting. When you pick first overall, you should be able to pick a guy like Bradford since no one is picking before you. All in all, the ultra conservative, unimaginative offense under Shurmur, the lack of major contributions from many draft picks, etc, helps one to understand the 7-34 record under Devaney.
    You're straying off topic here. Let's get back on point and not make this a bash-Devaney and Shurmur/counterpoint thread. Thanks.

  15. #15
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    I completely partially agree with you Av.

    While what you described is my dream scenario as well, reality is that can't happen all the time for a struggling franchise, when the great player/model citizen will likely choose a winning team. Teams like the Rams, in order to have some short term success, have to take some chances I think. Can any of us guarantee they would have helped get us to the playoffs this year and not cause any drama? Of course not, but with 6 wins in 3 years coming into this season, you have to do something.

    Before Avery went down, WR was still a big need, then when he went out it was a HUGE, glaring need. And that changed things. It became a desperate situation at WR. We landed Clayton and it worked out great, but when he went down, it's back to desperation time again. Desperate times call for desperate measures, right?

    Last week when Moss was available, and the Rams have a legitimate shot of making the playoffs this year, I don't understand why we didn't roll the dice on him. I honestly wouldn't even call claimin him off waivers as a desperate move. In my opinion, his upside is/was much greater than his downsideYes I've heard all his drawbacks, and listed them myself, so no need for anyone to remind me. I know Moss woulnd't have instant success here for himself, but you have to think of what a player can do for the entire recieving core. Moss would instantly draw the double teams, leaving Amendola and Co more room to run wild.

    People want to win and when we've gotten a taste for it, we want MORE. It's human nature as a fan of any sport. And when you take into account ther is a very real possibility of there not being any football atall next year, it is asking a LOT for people to not think about this year alone. I'm a pretty patient person, but dangit all this losing makes being patient much harder. I understand the long term goals Devany and Spags have, but I honestly don't think bringing in one borderline personality receiver is going to jeopardize all future plans.

    You toss in all these close losses, and it is very hard to imagine that TO or Moss wouldn't have shifted a few of those to wins, and that is where a lot of us get our frustration from. If we were 7-2 or 6-3 instead of 4-5, I doubt this would even be a discussion.

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