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  1. #31
    Bralidore(RAMMODE) Guest

    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth View Post
    I guess this horse isn't quite dead yet...so, here's my opinion (for what it's worth).

    While I find what Michael Vick did abhorent, he has paid his debt to society, AND by all accounts, is remorseful. He does not try to dodge the issues he had, nor does he make excuses. Thus, in my book, he deserves a second chance. This is coming from an avid dog lover who was beyond appalled at the news about Vick when it broke. I wanted the guy to serve the longest sentence allowed by law.

    Vick landed in the perfect place to make his return to the NFL. Had he wound up with the Rams, or any other team without much of a receiving corp, his progression as a QB would probably not have been so dramatic.

    As for T.O., Jackson, and Moss...I am behind the decision to NOT pursue these players at this time. I think that in order for these players to be productive and not disruptive, you must have strong, veteran leadership in the locker room, and a strong sense of team and direction as well. As a team, we are just beginning to build those things in our locker room. The damage one of these guys COULD (I said could) have caused, far out weighs the help they could have provided AT THIS TIME.

    Establish a locker room with character guys, with talent and drive. Then you can take a chance with a guy like Moss, Jackson, or T.O.
    By all accounts we have a VERY strong locker room with strong personalities. This isn't the reason I didn't want Moss. I didn't want Moss because he indicated he didn't want to play for teams like the Rams, he isn't what he used to be, and he doesn't play hard all the time. If we would have picked him up I would have been excited but the fact that we did not doesn't bother me in the slightest.

    Maybe I'm odd but I like seeing what Sam can do when he's handicapped by the receiving corp. The fact that he's not thrown an interception in 4 games, as a rookie, with arguably the worse receiving corp in the league because of our injuries and only an average one without them, is incredible to this guy. I can't wait to see Bradford when he has a guy that can make plays at any given time and become a reliable option.


  2. #32
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    Ah, Av...always one to stir the pot. I have been on my best behavior for a while now so let's see if I'll lose some rep points for this one.

    Yes you are entitled to your opinion AV, but I"d like to share something with you. I come from the same circle that Mike comes from, in our community/society/culture/hood there are some things that you Just do, and for many reasons including the fact that there are often no positive african-american role models for us (other than what we see on t.v. which for many of us is merely fantasy) most of the time we never question the negative behavior we are raised to be involved in; it is merely a way for us to have the basic necessities in life.

    With that being said, as a result many of us fight dogs, sell drugs, pimp women, gang bang, etc....you would not like to have lived where I grew up AV, but thank God for Jesus my life was changed (I was given a 2nd chance). I am now a minister, business man, & a clinician working in the mental health sector here. Now as a minister and a clinician I help ppl like Mike change their lives as well & it is not easy work especially when you are dealing w/ past hurts, pains, schemas, etc. that are deep seeded.

    So while yes you can be a fan of whomever you want, please be careful of how you stigmatize certain individuals b/c of their past mistakes/choices b/c you don't know there situation and why they made those poor decisions & you can't measure how much a person wants to change.

    Instead of tearing down guys like Mike who (although you may not believe so) is a symbol to many individuals, giving them hope that you can come back from hardship better, why not celebrate the fact that he was able to improve? If a player can learn from his mistakes and change his ways, I'd be more than happy to root for them as a Ram!

    May YHWH continue to bless you AV!
    Last edited by ManofGod; -11-17-2010 at 12:25 PM.

  3. #33
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    As you typically do, you've ignored my point and instead jumped on your soapbox to provide us with entirely irrelevant social commentary:

    Quote Originally Posted by ManofGod View Post
    So while yes you can be a fan of whomever you want, please be careful of how you stigmatize certain individuals b/c of their past mistakes/choices b/c you don't know there situation and why they made those poor decisions & you can't measure how much a person wants to change.
    I have not stigmatized anyone. I simply stated that I would rather root for a guy who has walked a path of righteousness, rather than one who has walked the path of redemption.

    I celebrate those with the courage, maturity and character to do the right thing throughout their lives. That does not mean I shun those who have not, but who have learned from their mistakes. But, given the choice, I'll take the Isaac Bruce's of the world over the Micheal Vicks.

  4. #34
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    You're clearly taking me way to literally, rather than getting my basic point about striving to build a winner while staying away from the problem children of the league.

    As for the rewards reaped by Prima Donna WRs, remind me... how many Super Bowl rings do Terrell Owens, Randy Moss and Chad Ochocinquo have?
    I should have said "me first" instead of "prima donna". My point is that wideouts in todays NFL are by and large inherently selfish players. You're not going to get big time "team" players in the NFL.

    For example, Gibson and his dancing on Sunday. I know some try to spin it as him trying to get a big play to help the team, but in that situation all the team needed to do (and indeed, the objective was) was to move the chains. The only one who really benefits from a 20-30 gain is Gibson and his statline.

  5. #35
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post
    The only one who really benefits from a 20-30 gain is Gibson and his statline.
    Whattttttttttt? That could be the most ridiculous football related statement I've ever seen ....

  6. #36
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    I agree completely with the premise of this thread. Given a CHOICE, I'll take players that walk the straight and narrow over guys that get suspended, disrupt, and regularly create distractions. I too would support and root for just about any player who wore the horns, but the experience is far more fulfilling for me if I actually like and respect the individual. That's just the way I feel about it.

    Obviously Spags and Devaney agree, because their philosophy is to build with players who stay out of trouble, keep their mouths shut, work hard, play hard, and put the team first. So far, it seems to be working, albeit not as fast as some would like, but still working, without a single questionable citizen in the bunch.

  7. #37
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bralidore(RAMMODE) View Post
    By all accounts we have a VERY strong locker room with strong personalities. This isn't the reason I didn't want Moss. I didn't want Moss because he indicated he didn't want to play for teams like the Rams, he isn't what he used to be, and he doesn't play hard all the time. If we would have picked him up I would have been excited but the fact that we did not doesn't bother me in the slightest.

    Maybe I'm odd but I like seeing what Sam can do when he's handicapped by the receiving corp. The fact that he's not thrown an interception in 4 games, as a rookie, with arguably the worse receiving corp in the league because of our injuries and only an average one without them, is incredible to this guy. I can't wait to see Bradford when he has a guy that can make plays at any given time and become a reliable option.

    By all accounts we have a TIGHT locker room. We have a rookie QB, and a VERY young and impressionable group of receivers. I'd rather keep the negative influences to a minimum. I think our FO and coaches feel the same way.

    I don't think you're odd to like seeing what Sam can do with this corp of receivers. I think he's done a great job. I think a T.O. or Moss would be in his ear constantly if they weren't getting the ball though. And let's face it, if we really only had one deep threat like Owens or Moss, they'd be double teamed all day. T.O. gets the ball thrown his way now because he's got Ochocinco on the otherside. Having Owens or Moss in your ear constantly might have changed some of the great decision making that Sam is doing now. As before, I think our FO and coaches feel the same way.

    As for Moss not wanting to come to the Rams, he wouldn't have had much of a choice. If we would have claimed him, he'd be here. As it was, only 1 team out of 32 put in a claim for him. If he came to St Louis and behaved as he did in Minnesota, he would have had a hard time finding a team willing to pay much for him next season. That's if anyone would have wanted him at all.
    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!!

  8. #38
    laram0's Avatar
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    I agree somewhat with Av..

    The analogy that comes to mind is my favorite baseball team.

    The LOS ANGELES DODGERS

    Living in the Boston area I read, heard & saw all of the Manny Ramirez craziness. When he went to the Dodgers, I said oh no! We have a young and upcoming team we don't need this idiots distractions. I don't want him influencing our players in a bad way. Although Manny is no longer on the Dodgers that 1st season he definitely made the team better on offense. We were winning more games and became a very exiting offense to watch. With that success my hatred for Manny was diminishing. Would it have ever gone away completely? I doubt it but he was an asset and had helped improve the team in the win/loss column. So basically I learned to accept him. Why? I really had no choice. I'm a fan of the DODGERS as a team and sometimes the individuals that make up that team are less than acceptable characters in my mind. But it is what it is.

    Same holds true for our RAMS. If we need to bring in less 100% characters to win a few more games or to get us over the hump. Let's do it! We'll get used to and might even see another side of said individuals that we like. Winning changes everything.

    GO RAMS!!!

  9. #39
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    I too would rather have a team of good character people, it's sad that in the world we live in those people don't get recognized half as much as the people who stray from the path. I do though respect those who learn from their mistakes and respect organizations who give those people a chance at redemption. What I do have a problem with is how the media makes these comback story players into larger than life individuals who should somehow have a statue in front of their home stadium when their teamates who live their lives by the rules rarely ever get the credit they deserve.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #40
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    Vick fought dogs, he didn't kill anyone. All though it is illegal to fight dogs you have to understand his culture, and you can't do that unless you live in the south and you're black or grew up with black people. People always throw around character as if they themselves have never done wrong or are better than anyone else. Vick has payed his debt to society and for his lack of poor judgement it cost him more than his freedom, but also financially. People still find ways to talk about Vick. He's proven he's one of the best QB's in this league. I'm a life longer Rams fans but I think it can also be said by Vick that he's glad he's not a Ram or any other player. He's in the perfect system for his skill set.

  11. #41
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsInfiniti View Post
    Whattttttttttt? That could be the most ridiculous football related statement I've ever seen ....
    What's the overriding objective governing everything the team is doing at that moment?

    Kill clock.

    How do you kill clock?

    By keeping control of the football

    How do you keep control of the football?

    By getting first downs.

    Will a 20 or 30 yard gain put you in scoring position?

    No.

    Is a 10 yard gain as good as a 20 or a 30 yard gain based on that?

    Yes.

    Is your opponent going to let you get the 20 or 30 yard gain?

    No.

    Is your opponent going to let you get the first down?

    Yes.

    Based on all this, is it in the team's best interests that you try for the 20 or 30 yard gain?

    No.

    So why are you trying for the 20 or 30 yard gain?

    ....

  12. #42
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post

    So why are you trying for the 20 or 30 yard gain?

    ....
    I'm not a football expert but I think it is less about the actual 20 to 30 yard gain and more about the threat of being able to get 20 to 30 yards on a play.

    If we can't get them then there is no threat of us getting them. This not only allows the defense to stack the box but it also allows them to keep the whole dang team within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage.

    This makes it harder on Jackson to run and harder on any receiver trying to catch the dink and dunk stuff.

    The reason it is hard to score in the red zone is because every play call is limited to 20 yards and under. We are constantly doubling that difficulty by keeping it all small ball for the whole field. For us to march 80 yards down the field is like trying to score from the 10 yard lines 8 times in a row.

    IMHO
    Last edited by Rambunctious; -11-17-2010 at 11:16 PM.

  13. #43
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctious View Post
    I'm not a football expert but I think it is less about the actual 20 to 30 yard gain and more about the threat of being able to get 20 to 30 yards on a play.

    If we can't get them then there is no threat of us getting them. This not only allows the defense to stack the box but it also allows them to keep the whole dang team within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage.

    This makes it harder on Jackson to run and harder on any receiver trying to catch the dink and dunk stuff.

    The reason it is hard to score in the red zone is because every play call is limited to 20 yards and under. We are constantly doubling that difficulty by keeping it all small ball for the whole field. For us to march 80 yards down the field is like trying to score from the 10 yard lines 8 times in a row.

    IMHO
    Normally you are correct, but normally you are not in the middle of the 4th quarter trying to salt away a 1 possession lead. Situationally, the decision to go for the big gain was bad and selfish.

  14. #44
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post
    Normally you are correct, but normally you are not in the middle of the 4th quarter trying to salt away a 1 possession lead. Situationally, the decision to go for the big gain was bad and selfish.
    Sorry I missed that it was in reference to the one play.

    I definitly agree in that situation straight ahead and 1st down should have been the only thing on his mind.

    On a similar but side note it constantly drives me crazy how many backs and receivers just run out of bounds before taking a hit. I understand it when clock management is crucial but it seems to be just standard operating procedure now. Get me an extra yard!!!

  15. #45
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    Re: I'll back whoever wears the horns, but I don't want just anyone wearing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Who said he owes me, or anyone else, anything? All I said is that I would not want to be in a position in which I'd have to root for him beause he was wearing the horns. I don't owe him that.



    ...and those he might harm.



    The criticism of his play in Atlanta was valid. He is playing extremely well right now. Nobody debates that. He does, though, have a lot of weapons that he would not have if he were in St. Louis.

    As for your being "proud" of him, I simply don't get that mindset. It seems like some people are more impressed with those who have fallen, (as a result of their own voluntary misdeeds) and then redeemed themselves, than they are with those who never got in trouble in the first place. I'd rather have the guy with the clean record.
    All things being equal, I'd rather have a guy with a clean record too AV.

    But my point is, my job is not to condemn him to hell if he doesn't. My job is to help uplift him, not to step on him.

    Because of my beliefs, as long as he shows repentence and a willingness to do whatever it takes to overcome the darkest moment of his life, I am obligated to forgive him. And to this point, I am satisfied with his re-dedication to staying free of those dark days and moving on with his life.

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