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For the record, much of what PFF publishes does not qualify as statistics. Rather, they are merely subjective observations to which they assign numbers.
If you don't understand the difference, that's too bad, as I don't have time to explain it to you.
Oh, great... now you're going to make sosa and emuen jealous.Quote:
Originally Posted by RockinRam
I must not have seen it through the clutter of non-sense posts in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambos
I never said tackles are not the number one source for grading a LB. In general, to grade a LB as a whole, yes you look primarily at their tackles.
HOWEVER, the issue on hand is not Laurinaitis as a WHOLE. It is about him being soft at the point of attack and being out of position quite often.
Sure you can bring up his "tackles" to defend his play. However, the OP was asking if anyone has noticed the same things he is noticing which requires subjective opinions from watching the football games.
I've stated this many times. I'm not sure why it's that hard to understand.
When you have a friend sit down to watch the game with you who is not a Rams fan and he quickly says, "did you see that? Y'alls middle linebacker just got blown up" and you rewind the game through the wonder that is modern technology and actually notice he is right, you begin to formulate concerns.
Here's my question...
Why not start a thread talking about Rocky McIntosh's play?
Or, how about a thread on Barry Richardson?
Or, perhaps, a thread on Quintin Mikell?
I guess it just makes too much sense to identify the people that virtually everyone would agree is underperforming. Better to take one of the top players on the team and nitpick at his performance.
Sigh.
You have yet to actually respond to any of my legitimate arguments. Instead, you insist on using diversion tactics and finally the oh so powerful "rep" system. Shake my head.Quote:
Originally Posted by AvengerRam
Posting a thread about your dog intending to compare "annoying" posters to your dog's paper eating habit, a picture of a pacifier to demean another poster, a recap of a high school debate match to condescend the level of discussion in this thread...gee I'm surprised I got the annoying poster award. :king:
If everyone agrees those players are underperforming, why would we start a thread on them? Just to sing kumbayah?Quote:
Originally Posted by AvengerRam
When you make one, I'll respond.Quote:
Originally Posted by RockinRam
Wow, I had to go back to the start of this thread to see what the beginning of this discussion was actually like. It started off innocently enough as a genuine topic for conversation and not a "James Laurinaitis sux" thread, which I think could warrant at least a civil talk, but here we are. :( OP mentions specifically impact plays, so arguments around that point are indeed valid.
I went back and watched some of the highlights from the game, and have some observations, which is what I think people wanted to talk about to complement stats:
On a run for a loss by Peterson, JL clogged a hole and forced AP to reverse direction and was promptly stuffed. Something that doesn't appear on a stat sheet but indeed makes a difference.
On the first long run from AP, JL was left alone around 10 yards deep, and I can't tell where the safeties were at the time. A Viking blocker runs 10 yards down the field and is in front of AP to spring him loose. Dahl runs in from off screen and makes possibly the worst play on the ball in the history of american football and allows for AP to go the distance. Seriously, he overran him by about 6 or 7 yards.
In this play, JL was indeed a sort of "safety" for the play, most likely because we rushed 2 LBs(or 1 LB and a Mikell, hard to tell, but that would explain the lack of safeties in frame). The Vikings ran away from the blitz and were able to spring free the blockers needed to take JL out of the play. It's hard to pin that one on JL, as he aligned himself in front of AP, but didn't have any help. A bad play call? I can't say, but we were certainly set up to fail on that one.
Second big run. JL is lined up on the strong side and his orders are to stay on that side of the play. The play goes the other way, and our d line misses some tackles. JL not relevant to the play.
That's all that NFL.com had for this game. From reviewing this footage as well as watching the game myself, I think that we might be too quick to judge JL individually without talking more about the scheme requirements. For example, I've often noticed how frequently I see Mikell blitzing this year, way up from last year. It would make sense then, in those situations if JL is playing deep as another safety, especially when you remember who plays opposite of Mikell. This would lead me to believe that he would be at the point of attack less.
I'm welcome to reading some other reviews of tape or real situations, as I think it will help further the discussion and get it back on track.
His original concern was about JL being too soft, etc. so I figured his mentioning of "impact plays" was implied as plays that stood out on the T.V that would negate his concerns, such as JL blowing up a blocker or JL chasing down a RB in the backfield.Quote:
Originally Posted by shower beers
Finally! Now we're getting somewhere.Quote:
I went back and watched some of the highlights from the game, and have some observations, which is what I think people wanted to talk about to complement stats:
These plays all highlight the moments where JL was performing well, which is great. He is a good LB, I don't think anyone is arguing that. Despite that, I do remember seeing him being lackluster on some plays in the Vikings game as well as previous games. If you notice this while watching tape please share it.Quote:
On a run for a loss by Peterson, JL clogged a hole and forced AP to reverse direction and was promptly stuffed. Something that doesn't appear on a stat sheet but indeed makes a difference.
On the first long run from AP, JL was left alone around 10 yards deep, and I can't tell where the safeties were at the time. A Viking blocker runs 10 yards down the field and is in front of AP to spring him loose. Dahl runs in from off screen and makes possibly the worst play on the ball in the history of american football and allows for AP to go the distance. Seriously, he overran him by about 6 or 7 yards.
In this play, JL was indeed a sort of "safety" for the play, most likely because we rushed 2 LBs(or 1 LB and a Mikell, hard to tell, but that would explain the lack of safeties in frame). The Vikings ran away from the blitz and were able to spring free the blockers needed to take JL out of the play. It's hard to pin that one on JL, as he aligned himself in front of AP, but didn't have any help. A bad play call? I can't say, but we were certainly set up to fail on that one.
Second big run. JL is lined up on the strong side and his orders are to stay on that side of the play. The play goes the other way, and our d line misses some tackles. JL not relevant to the play.
I'm not sure if this is actually the case, but if it is, JL Mikell should go back to his original spot and put JL back up close to the LOS again. We have 2 big new DTs for a reason.Quote:
That's all that NFL.com had for this game. From reviewing this footage as well as watching the game myself, I think that we might be too quick to judge JL individually without talking more about the scheme requirements. For example, I've often noticed how frequently I see Mikell blitzing this year, way up from last year. It would make sense then, in those situations if JL is playing deep as another safety, especially when you remember who plays opposite of Mikell. This would lead me to believe that he would be at the point of attack less.
I dont know why you quoted something Rockin said, but that really has nothing to do with me. I said that tackles are the most overrated stat in football, but they do still measure SOME success. I mean, does anyone really think Curtis Lofton is better than Patrick Willis? Because Lofton had more tackles than Willis last season, but that is absolutely NOT the case. I DO use the tackling stat to look at players, but that doesn't make if the be all end all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambos
I've watched every single play of James Laurinaitis this season. I've noticed that he is NOT as good as previous years. Perhaps his weight loss has taken away his ability to blow up blockers. He's missed some tackles this year. At times he is totally out of position. I've noticed that in previous years, we've had MASSIVE troubles with speedy guys, and RB's that bounce it to the outside. This year its the total opposite. Guys that pound it in between the tackles have given us much more trouble.
I watch a lot of football, I use basic stats, use outside stats, oh, and did I mention, I watch a lot of football? Thats how I grade players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockinRam
I wasn't trying to show only highlights, just observing what was available. :)
Yeah I'm not sure why Mikell is blitzing as much as he does, although I would argue that it's effective. I honestly think J Lau's role is just radically different from years past, which is why we're not seeing him play more of an attacking role. That's not an attempt to excuse all his play though. Maybe I'll try going through some more highlights and see what I can dig up.
Yeah that was the line... said that tackles are the most overrated stat in football....Quote:
Originally Posted by sosa39rams
I use basic stats... and what are they?
use outside stats... I'm not sure what that is... whats that?
Is there anything you see that he is doing well?
Basic stats? Splash plays (INT's, FF, FR, TD's, Sacks) and even the tackle stat itself (you have to have a tempered mindset with it though).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambos
And outside stats? Well, I read articles, look at a bunch of other websites with their own developed stats (PFF, Pro Football Outsiders, etc..)
And yes, not all is bad with James. He's done a good job in coverage this year. He is decent in run support this year. I feel comfortable with JL going 1v1 with most RB's in the NFL. At some crucial times he's been out of position, overrunning plays. At some points not really visible in the middle either, but he isn't perfect. I think our new D scheme (more tampa 2) has effected his ability to help in run support. He lost weight this past off-season so he could move better, knowing he'd have to cover more guys downfield.
He's still an excellent player. Its just since were so used to seeing James play at a top 5 level, we've come to have such high expectations. I hold him to the highest regards.
seems like laurinaitis has been playing in coverage more, so obviously he's not going to be making as many plays at the line of scrimmage if he has to be back farther all the time
Watched every game this year. I also think his play hasnt been as high as years before. However, I think you can attribute it to loss of weight and switching more of his responsibilities. I also don't think its something to be worried about though. When you lose 15lbs you might not be able to make a certain tackle you have before. When you are in coverage you might not be able to blow up a play like you were before. Just the balance switches.