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  1. #76
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    Re: Jim Haslett as St. Louis Rams coach ... are fans willing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Falconator View Post
    While Mike Smith was a good defensive coordinator for Jax, Falcons need a little more personnel on that side of the ball. I think this offseason the Falcons will go after defensive tackles and linebackers in the draft and free agency. Probably a new young strong safety as well. Before someone "jumps" on this paragraph and uses it to defend Haslett, Mike Smith has had one season with Atlanta - one - and Smith is not even the DC now (Brian Van Gorder is).
    Well, deep down I knew I was not being that abstract. You understand others thinking more than you lead on.

    You know, it does not have to be used to defend haslett. It can be used to defend the ideal that the roster plays more of a key role than any coaches past records or rankings. Otherwise Smith would have the defense his past record indicates simply because he is "Mike Smith DC Extraordinaire" with past top 10 defensive rankings.

    The roster is a big key and you just admitted as much. Yet in one case it is sound logic and the other it is not. That's Bull****!

    What significant players have the Rams added to a defensive roster that was at rock bottom when haslett took the job? Name one defensive stud they have aquired? You can't because there aren't any to name. Over the past 3 seasons they've drafted 10 defensive players; 3 of which are above average and have made contributions. They added spoon who plays out of position and some older guys that are past their prime but come at a cheap price.





  2. #77
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    Re: Jim Haslett as St. Louis Rams coach ... are fans willing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter View Post
    Well, deep down I knew I was not being that abstract. You understand others thinking more than you lead on.

    You know, it does not have to be used to defend haslett. It can be used to defend the ideal that the roster plays more of a key role than any coaches past records or rankings. Otherwise Smith would have the defense his past record indicates simply because he is "Mike Smith DC Extraordinaire" with past top 10 defensive rankings.

    The roster is a big key and you just admitted as much. Yet in one case it is sound logic and the other it is not. That's Bull****!

    What significant players have the Rams added to a defensive roster that was at rock bottom when haslett took the job? Name one defensive stud they have aquired? You can't because there aren't any to name. Over the past 3 seasons they've drafted 10 defensive players; 3 of which are above average and have made contributions. They added spoon who plays out of position and some older guys that are past their prime but come at a cheap price.


    Ferter,

    I understand your basic argument about needing players and clearly the Rams need better players on defense - as do my Falcons.

    Having said that (using my Falcons as an example), if Falcons defense is not any better three years from now and Brian Van Gorder(BVG) is the defensive coordinator for all three years, I'm going to place a lot of blame on BVG - now, I may place some blame on the GM as well if personnel has not been upgraded significantly, but I will be dayumed if I would make BVG the Falcons head coach if I was firing Mike Smith.......

    I guess when you break down my basic argument "against Haslett" it really just comes down to this - I don't think Haslett has a track record of success and I want my new head coach to have that (at whatever level - position coach, coordinator or head coach). Its arguable as to why Haslett has not had a lot of success and I suppose you could blame the General Managers of the the New Orleans Saints and the St. Louis Rams and to some degree you would be right.......And, its certainly not beyond the realm of possibility that the Rams could hire Jim Haslett as head coach and he could end up turning the franchise around and being a good head coach....................I just would not make that "bet" myself....

    Fair enough?

  3. #78
    Azul e Oro is online now Registered User
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    Re: Jim Haslett as St. Louis Rams coach ... are fans willing?

    Well said, Falconator.

    Quick q. for you as I get pumped/informed for the playoffs & I get to enjoy the games on a more dispassionate level; how do you account for the fact that The Falcons have indeed improved dramatically in sacks this year; from 30th to 11th? There haven't been many personnel changes up front. Is Abraham just having a monster year or has BVG changed the scheme?

    It's a given that having a better O helps so that teams have to score more points & more quickly to stay with you guys now but is there something else going on?

    Insider scoopage,plze.

  4. #79
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    Re: Jim Haslett as St. Louis Rams coach ... are fans willing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Falconator View Post
    Ferter,

    I understand your basic argument about needing players and clearly the Rams need better players on defense - as do my Falcons.

    And, its certainly not beyond the realm of possibility that the Rams could hire Jim Haslett as head coach and he could end up turning the franchise around and being a good head coach....................I just would not make that "bet" myself....

    Fair enough?
    Sure it is 'fair enough' in the context that it is nothing more than your own 'gut feeling'.

    You have not offered anything else that isn't as easily discounted as it is counted.

    Once again, just so the record is straight:

    I will be happy with whatever devaney decides, whether it is haslett or the latest greatest coordinator that the majority of fans think is 'sexy' because he has great players to work with.

    As a Rams fan, I will support Devaney's decision until I see reason not to.



  5. #80
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    Re: Jim Haslett as St. Louis Rams coach ... are fans willing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    Well said, Falconator.

    Quick q. for you as I get pumped/informed for the playoffs & I get to enjoy the games on a more dispassionate level; how do you account for the fact that The Falcons have indeed improved dramatically in sacks this year; from 30th to 11th? There haven't been many personnel changes up front. Is Abraham just having a monster year or has BVG changed the scheme?

    It's a given that having a better O helps so that teams have to score more points & more quickly to stay with you guys now but is there something else going on?

    Insider scoopage,plze.
    I honestly did not know that the Falcons had improved that much in sacks.......As far as what I would attribute to, I would list the following:

    1) Rest for Abraham - the defensive coordinator is only using Abe on about 50-60% of the defensive snaps. John Abraham in the past has had a tendency for his body to break down and miss a few games here and there. Brian Van Gorder used the "less is more" philosophy with John Abraham and it has worked very well - I think he has 16.5 sacks.

    2) Fast starts by the offense/playing with the lead - anytime you can make a team "one-dimensional" and put them in predictable passing downs then its bound to boost the sacks. I think that accounts for a lot. Little known factoid: Falcons have scored more points in the 1st quarter than any other team in the NFL.

    3) Time of Possession - because the Falcons have dominated this stat this year, it has allowed the defensive unit to rest.


    So, those would be my reasons for increased sacks......The reason why I am suprised by the stat is because very few other players other than John Abraham have had many sacks.

  6. #81
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    Re: Jim Haslett as St. Louis Rams coach ... are fans willing?

    Azul,

    one HUGE area of improvement was the Falcons offensive line. They were better at run blocking and pass protection. I attribute many factors to this starting with:

    1) Matt Ryan - very good at recognizing blitzes and getting rid of the ball quickly
    2) Michael Turner - O-Line more motivated to block for a horse like Turner
    3) Paul Boudreau - very good offensive line coach who instilled a "tough" attitude
    4) Offensive Linemen themselves just elevating their play......

    The only changes to offensive line personnel from last year - Harvey Dahl started all season this year (he only started half of the previous year for Kynan Forney). The next change was Sam Baker - but he was oft-injured this year.

    Falcons offensive line was arguably as bad as the Rams offensive line in 2007 & 2008 a year ago. The above made the difference. I don't know what the stats for "sacks allowed" by an offensive line but I bet Atlanta was in the "top 10" and probably closer to "top 5" - previous year was probably in the 25th-30th range - if anybody has the stats please post.....

    So, I think the offensive line play was a huge part of Falcons improvement - I think Matt Ryan helped a lot in this area - we also ran the "no-huddle" offense which helped.

  7. #82
    Falconator Guest

    Re: Jim Haslett as St. Louis Rams coach ... are fans willing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter View Post
    Sure it is 'fair enough' in the context that it is nothing more than your own 'gut feeling'.

    You have not offered anything else that isn't as easily discounted as it is counted.

    Once again, just so the record is straight:

    I will be happy with whatever devaney decides, whether it is haslett or the latest greatest coordinator that the majority of fans think is 'sexy' because he has great players to work with.

    As a Rams fan, I will support Devaney's decision until I see reason not to.


    I agree if you are a Rams fan you have to support Billy Devaney and hopefully Devaney will "get it right".....said many times, I don't think Haslett will be the choice for the reasons I outlined.

    You keep saying all I offer is my "gut feeling" but mostly what I offer is Jim Haslett's record. You seem to want me to "mathematically prove" why Jim Haslett should not be the choice. Not sure how I am supposed to go about doing that... Not sure you can do that for any head coach candidate. What are your standards?

    Let's flip it around: Ferter, make your case why Jim Haslett should be kept - and please offer more than the players petition

  8. #83
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    Re: Jim Haslett as St. Louis Rams coach ... are fans willing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jjigga3000 View Post
    I've always said it and I'll keep saying it, we need to keep Haslett. Bringing in someone new would be a huge mistake. The players have all ready bought into his philosophy and have shown huge improvements in the last few games. They have shown they don't want to lose. When they could have bagged it up, and turned it off looking towards the off season. They played like they were trying to get into the playoffs.

    You know they've bought into Haslett. Why take a chance on someone new especially when you know you're not going to get a prominent former Head coach. I would never take a chance on a coordinator, you really never know what you're going to get. Look at former Pats assistants. If it is true he'll bring back in Martz, and Martz accepts. Then that's a good mix. Martz has three components he allready needs. Bulger, Holt, and Jackson. My opinion and I'm sticking with it.

    A good opinion at that too! It makes sense JJ. ...Martz + Bulger, Holt (assuming he returns), Jax and Pace. Coach Ellard, etc. The offense would improve I do believe.

    Given our options and the Rams players position on Haslett, I'm still very willing to see him return as HC.

  9. #84
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    Re: Jim Haslett as St. Louis Rams coach ... are fans willing?

    Quote Originally Posted by RealRam View Post
    A good opinion at that too! It makes sense JJ. ...Martz + Bulger, Holt (assuming he returns), Jax and Pace. Coach Ellard, etc. The offense would improve I do believe.

    Given our options and the Rams players position on Haslett, I'm still very willing to see him return as HC.
    if you bring in Mike Martz as offensive coordinator, you might as well trade Steven Jackson because Martz won't "pound the rock" and that is what Jackson is made to do - much like he did in the Atlanta game. I know Martz would use Jax - but not optimally so.

  10. #85
    Azul e Oro is online now Registered User
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    Re: Jim Haslett as St. Louis Rams coach ... are fans willing?

    Thx for the insight, Falconator. Makes sense to me. Have you noticed anything about BVG's tendencies regarding blitzes,etc, that we should be looking at vs The Cards? Or does he tend to play "honestly" up front?

    To be fair to our friend, Ferter, I think there is a strong argument to be made that few coaches could have done much better with the other factors in play at Rams Park. I just see very little evidence anywhere in his career record to indicate that he would have done better without the extra burden. He certainly didn't do much under the circumstances. That is a fact. Giving him a "do-over cuz it wasn't fair" seems like dodgy logic.

    I keep forgetting to post this but your mention of the players petition reminds me: I think a similar thing happened back in the 60s for The Rams. The HC ( Allen?) was canned,then brought back after a locker room rebellion. The Rams sucked the following year & he got sacked again. Any of the wrinkly Rams out there remember this?

  11. #86
    Curly Horns's Avatar
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    Re: Jim Haslett as St. Louis Rams coach ... are fans willing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Falconator View Post
    You keep saying all I offer is my "gut feeling" but mostly what I offer is Jim Haslett's record.
    Actually the record does not entirely belong to haslett. There are 22 players on the field that decide the outcome be it win or lose. Rarely, if ever should a head coach be singled out as the person that won or lost the game. BUT - since most fans (yourself included) can not seem to grasp this simple and logical concept, I will play along with the record.

    The record does not hold water as definitive proof. There are far too many examples that prove it is not highly reliable, let alone should it be the single deciding factor.

    Refer back to the belichick record. After 5 seasons with the browns the record was 36-44. Several seasons later he was the DC of the Jets under parcells and hired by the pats as head coach. (of course this leaves out the fiasco of him being the Jets head coach for 24 hours)

    Why? According to your logic he had already failed as a head coach. Look at the record.

    After 3 seasons with the pats the record was 25-23 and 61-67 overall. According to your logic he should have been fired. Look at the record.

    There are many examples like this. I'm not going to do all the research for you considering I only need one prime example to easily discount what you so desperately want to hang your hat on.



    Quote Originally Posted by Falconator View Post
    What are your standards?
    They are not my standards. Just like you, I'm not a GM, neither of us has the experience or expertise. And I already stated I'm not interested in playing "what if I were the GM".

    The standards belong to devaney. I believe he said the number one thing he was looking for was leadership qualities. Yet you don't seem to want hear that message. You think it should be based on the flimsy things you want it to be based on. If you read the post that bigred wrote it offers good examples of these qualities.



    Quote Originally Posted by Falconator View Post
    Let's flip it around: Ferter, make your case why Jim Haslett should be kept - and please offer more than the players petition
    Ha! Ha! Not a chance buddy! You were the one who was spouting off in numerous threads that haslett sucked and the Rams would be foolish and mediocre if haslett were hired. Therefore the impetus is on you. I have never stated that I think haslett should be the guy. And besides that, I find it much more entertaining to discount your weak attempts to discredit haslett, (on the basis of nothing more than your 'gut feelings') rather than go around in thread after thread and spout off that haslett should be the guy otherwise the Rams are idiots.




  12. #87
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    Re: Jim Haslett as St. Louis Rams coach ... are fans willing?

    Ferter,

    the whole purpose (in my opinion) of a messageboard is for "fans" to be able to share their thoughts and viewpoints about their teams or other teams they are interested. At least that is what most people do......take a side.....make a stand........dare to be wrong........but "get in the game".......

    so far, you claim to "discredit" my attempts to say Haslett should not be the head coach - but you don't offer one single thing as to why he(Haslett) should be kept. I think you said you have no opinion on it either way......is that right?

    You also keep talking about the players and only the players really matter so, I don't see why you should even be on the messageboard until the draft and free agency because it seems like you don't really think the coach matters at all.....

    I think you are just goading me so I probably just need to drop it and quit playing this game......

  13. #88
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    Re: Jim Haslett as St. Louis Rams coach ... are fans willing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Falconator View Post
    the whole purpose (in my opinion) of a messageboard is for "fans" to be able to share their thoughts and viewpoints about their teams or other teams they are interested. At least that is what most people do......take a side.....make a stand........dare to be wrong........but "get in the game".............
    Sure, no argument here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Falconator View Post
    so far, you claim to "discredit" my attempts to say Haslett should not be the head coach - but you don't offer one single thing as to why he(Haslett) should be kept. I think you said you have no opinion on it either way......is that right?
    Geez, I just told you that I have no desire to make a case for haslett. I guess you somehow feel that this substantiates your case against haslett? More weak logic. You are really losing me now.



    Quote Originally Posted by Falconator View Post
    You also keep talking about the players and only the players really matter so, I don't see why you should even be on the messageboard until the draft and free agency because it seems like you don't really think the coach matters at all.....
    I never said those things. You just misinterpret things or purposely write false and misleading claims to spin the debate so you can bow out without admitting you have nothing substantial against haslett except your own personal bias or 'gut feeling'.



    Quote Originally Posted by Falconator View Post
    I think you are just goading me so I probably just need to drop it and quit playing this game......
    I'm goading you? As I said in the previous post you are the one who waltzed in here spouting off that haslett sucks.....yada, yada. And now you want to drop it since you realize you have nothing substantial to back up your claims. Fine, we can drop it. And I'd appreciate you dropping the hater, anti-haslett routine and simply let the hiring process play out.




  14. #89
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    Re: Jim Haslett as St. Louis Rams coach ... are fans willing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Falconator View Post
    if you bring in Mike Martz as offensive coordinator, you might as well trade Steven Jackson because Martz won't "pound the rock" and that is what Jackson is made to do - much like he did in the Atlanta game. I know Martz would use Jax - but not optimally so.
    I'm not so sure about that. Since leaving St. Louis, Martz has tried to convince everyone that his high risk pass first, run second offense was the answer in Detroit and then San Francisco. He was heavily criticized in both places, as he was in his waning years with the Rams. His stubbornness in not letting go of his early anointment as a "genius" lead him to believe that it was the execution of the players, not his system, that was the fault of any failure of his offense. While it may be true, it was equally true that once you realize you don't have the personnel to fit the system, you must change the system to fit your personnel. That's something Martz refused to do in his last years with the Rams, his entire stay with Detroit, and the first part of his stay in San Francisco. Singletary reined in Martz's game plan and insisted on more running plays, and the whiners got better. Of course this caused a great deal of friction with Martz that resulted in some coaching office sniping leaked to the press and eventually leading to his "dismissal". Sound familiar to the last year Martz was with us? So I can understand your hesitance, however, I think if Martz is ever going to get a head coaching job again, he needs to change and come up with a new genius offensive scheme, show some flexibility, and prove he can "coach on his feet" by making smart adjustments at halftime. What better place than to return to the team that once spurned him? Of course, it may be all too much to hope for, but right now, that's all I have.
    Last edited by bigredman; -01-03-2009 at 04:22 PM.
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  15. #90
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    Re: Jim Haslett as St. Louis Rams coach ... are fans willing?

    I think that Haslett can lead the team, the problem is Shaw and his stale ways of doing club buisness. Surround him with good coordinators, draft well pick up an FA or 2 or 3 lol. Sign him for only 2 years and let Billy rebuild this team.

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