Is It Just Coincidence, Or Is It Me........

that since the Pats beat ( won by cheating ) the Rams in the 2002 Superbowl that the teams have gone in opposite directions.

that SB win has jump started the NE franchise into one of the most dominating teams in recent memory. 4 loses so far in almost 2 seasons. that is impressive indeed.

meanwhile, the Rams have been mired in the land of confusion. they seem to have lost their identity, and the fear they once instilled on other teams has long since faded. and the Rams still have more talent on their team than NE does.

but NE is filled with "blue-collar" players who are not the best, but play with heart and don't complain about whatever role they are asked to play ( chew on that Kevin Carter ). it is truly a team.

and that is something the Rams have not seen in a while and need to recapture again.

there is no "I" in team, but there is in " the spirit of team ".

[Nick]

Originally Posted by lakerams

and the Rams still have more talent on their team than NE does.

Currently? I'm not sure I believe this, but you make a very interesting point.

NICK-

I must say, I am surprised at you. you are the eternal optomist, and you don't think the Rams have more talent.

you don't think Bulger is better than Brady?
you don't think Holt, Bruce, Curtis and McDonald are better than Givens, Brown, Branch and Patten?
you don't think the combo of Faulk and Jackson caompare to Dillon and Faulk?
you don't think Pisa is as good as Vrabel?
you don't think the Rams DB's compare to whoever is starting at DB for NE right now?

as far as I'm concerned, the only difference is the system.

[Nick]

I look at in groups. I think Brady is slightly better than Bulger, and the Pats have better depth at QB. I think the Rams have the edge in halfbacks and receivers, but the Pats have better tight ends and offensive line. The Pats have a better defense altogether I think. Wilkins and Vinatieri are a push, but overall, any special teams unit in the NFL is probably better than the Rams'. So yeah, I give the edge to New England in terms of talent.

so, why are the results so drastically different?

[AugustaRamFan]

Lakerams:

Funny - I was thinking the exact same thing - Exactly!

Since the Pats victory (in the SB), the performance of each team has diverged. There are many reasons for this - obviously. The center of the difference to me (IMHO) is coaching style. Belichick (sp?) has the ability to game plan from both sides of the ball, adapt on the fly and get his players focused. Well, Martz is just different - I just do not feel the focus or intensity from his teams. His cavalier attitude toward turnovers and clock/game managent has had a negative impact on an otherwise talented team.

But - yes. The teams have gone different ways. It would be interesting to look at a draft pick comparison and see what type of value the Pats picked up in the draft (after or before the Rams picked).

Great point! I wish I had said that.

ARF ARF

[SFCRamFan]

Great points...I agree with many of the points made here...Coaching style, talent, draft and attitude. I think that this team's confidence was shaken after the SB debacle. One thing about Belichick (sp?) is that he has surrounded himself with great coaching talent and that blue collar attitude. They aren't elitists, just winners. They seem to have much better preparation from top to bottom. Don't get me wrong, I do not like them at all; just admire how they have adapted to the team concept and their attention to detail and preparation. (After watching them meltdown last night at Miami, it has put a smile on my face...)

all great points as well.

I think Belichick chooses coaches that can stand on their own two feet ( i.e, why Weis is going to ND and Crennel is always in HC'ing discussions ).
but Martz seems to pick guys that can't stand on their own and need his support. it helps fuel his ego ( I'm the man and you are my servants ).

I wish he would let his ego get out of the way and just coach. I think he would be great is he was more like Belichick and not full of himself.

he let his ego get in the way before the SB against the Pats ( which the gameplan showed ) and it hasn't gotten out of the way since.

Martz, let go of your ego and become the coach we all want you to be.

remember, you are not a great coach unless most people agree you are ( media, NFL personnel, etc. ). if you are the only one that thinks you are, then that is a problem.

[atcchris]

Nick

I look at in groups. I think Brady is slightly better than Bulger, and the Pats have better depth at QB. I think the Rams have the edge in halfbacks and receivers, but the Pats have better tight ends and offensive line. The Pats have a better defense altogether I think. Wilkins and Vinatieri are a push, but overall, any special teams unit in the NFL is probably better than the Rams'. So yeah, I give the edge to New England in terms of talent.

I agree with all, suprisingly, except at QB... I believe that Brady is clearly better than Bulger. Other than that, I think you're right on the money... I think the O-line/TE differences are just killing us, but overall, we're not immensely less talented...

That being said.. the reason we're less talented, and our unwillingness or inability to deal with our shortcomings since 2001.. that's all pointing to one place. That's why I say Martz has wasted our chances, and why I think lakerrams has made an excellent point, regardless of our individual opinions about some of the details.

Bravo for this line of discussion.

[Tailgage-Mayor]

All good points.

One thing to consider is experience. Belichick has a wealth of experience in many coaching areas, and has been a head coach in the NFL (or assistant head coach) since about 1991. This is a wealth of managerial experience including delegation, staff motivation, and dealing with the media.

Martz on the other hand has never been a head coach before, not even a high school head coach. Hence he struggles with delegation, team motivation, and certainly is not very good with the media. What we are seeing is Martz going through the learning experience, which can be painful at times.

Was it a mistake making Martz the head coach after the 99 season? No, it was the best choice based on the available options. And unless there is some genius and proven head coach currently available (not Wanstadt), Martz remains the best available option even today.

Just my view from section 427.

[txramsfan]

Their O line is stellar, ours is medicore.
Their defensive front four never gets pushed around, ours gets moved to the beer stands in section 312.
Their linebackers make plays, ours miss tackles.
Their special teams don't give up field position, I wish the Rams would kick out of bounds on every kickoff. It would help the field position struggle.
Corey Dillon is a very fine RB who still has legs left. Faulk is on his last one.

The Patriots have much more talent than the Rams. It's not 1999 anymore.

Originally Posted by AugustaRamFan

Lakerams:

But - yes. The teams have gone different ways. It would be interesting to look at a draft pick comparison and see what type of value the Pats picked up in the draft (after or before the Rams picked).

you asked for it, you get it. here is the list. I started with 2001 since I feel these players helped the teams get to the SB that year.

2001

New England StL

6) Richard Seymour 12) Damione Lewis
48) Matt Lyght 20) Adam Archuleta
86) Brock Williams 29) Ryan Pickett
96) Kenyatta Jones 42) Tommy Polley
119) Jabari Holloway 83) Brian Allen
163) Hakim Akbar 116) Milton Wynn
180) Arther Love 129) Brandon Manumaleuna
200) Leonard Myers 145) Jerametrius Butler
216) Owen Pochman 197) Francis St. Paul
239) T.J. Turner

2002

21) Daniel Graham 31) Robert Thomas
65) Deion Branch 64) Travis Fisher
117) Rohan Davey 84) Lamar Gordon
126) Jarvis Green 95) Eric Crouch
237) Antwoine Womack 130) Travis Scott
253) David Givens 167) Courtland Bullard
205) Steve Bellisari
243) Chris Massey

2003

13) Ty Warren 12) Jimmy Kennedy
36) Eugene Wilson 43) Pisa Tinoisamoa
45) Bethel Johnson 74) Kevin Curtis
117) Dan Klecko 106) Shaun McDonald
120) Asante Samuel 107) Dejuan Groce
164) Dan Koppen 148) Dan Curley
201) Kliff Kingsbury 170) Shane Walton
234) Spencer Nead 172) Kevin Garrett
239) Tully Banta-Cain 184) Scott Tercero
243) Ethan Kelley 251) Scott Shanle
254) Richard Angulo

2004

21) Vince Wilfork 24) Steven Jackson
32) Ben Watson 91) Tony Hargrove
63) Marquise Hill 130) Brandon Chillar
95) Guss Scott 158) Jason Shivers
113) Dexter Reid 201) Jeff Smoker
128) Cedric Cobbs 237) Erik Jensen
164) P.K. Sams 238) Larry Turner
233) Christian Morton


as a side note: P.K. Sams is the kick returner for NE this year. Jason Shivers was left on the practice squad and was picked up by the Bears. both players were 5th round picks this year.

you don't leave talent exposed on your practice squad Martz

[Nick]

Originally Posted by lakerams

as a side note: P.K. Sams is the kick returner for NE this year. Jason Shivers was left on the practice squad and was picked up by the Bears. both players were 5th round picks this year.

you don't leave talent exposed on your practice squad Martz

Who at the time would you have him cut to make room for Shivers, who has struggled to pick up the defense, on the active roster? I'm pretty sure all of those spots were sorely needed, and like it or not, Rich Coady probably knows the defense better than Shivers. I'm sad to see Shivers go as well, but I'm not sure I see much of an option on what could have been done.

if you are not going to give up on Kennedy, Lewis or Pickett that fast, why give up on a guy that was just drafted this year?

Shivers is younger and has more upside than Coady. hell yes I would've kept Shivers over Coady.

another thing! Coady isn't helping the team anyways, now is he!

[Nick]

Originally Posted by lakerams

Shivers is younger and has more upside than Coady. hell yes I would've kept Shivers over Coady.

another thing! Coady isn't helping the team anyways, now is he!

If Shivers knew the defense better than Coady, don't you think he'd be on the active roster? Coady, despite being older and having less upside and as bad as he's played this year, is probably more prepared mentally to go on the field than Shivers. That, in my opinion, warrants his spot over Jason at this point because while I think Coady has had a poor season, I don't look forward to having Shivers out there, with little idea of what he's supposed to be doing on defense.