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  1. #1
    Curly Horns's Avatar
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    Just Curious....

    Marmie is taking a ton of heat from Rams fans.

    The majority of posts that are critical of Marmie all relate to his scheme, coaching in general and/or motivation.

    Let me play along.

    Marmie is an absolute idiot. He does not know the first thing about coaching a defense. Of course, there are other defensive minded coaches with the Rams. They must also be idiots as well or afraid or perhaps too stupid to speak up. Kollar is an idiot. Schott is an idiot and Joe Vitt is a major moron.

    None of these defensive coaches knows the first thing about defense. They have just managed to survive in the NFL as some type of defensive coach for all these years by shear luck. Now their luck has dried up and their idiocy is finally showing its' true colors.

    I'm sure this is the case. I mean what else could it be? This is the only logical explanation. Every single one of these defensive coaches is an idiot and Martz is the biggest idiot of all because he hired each and every one of them.

    This basically sums up the general attitude here at the Clan.

    Now let me play along again.

    Given that the present attitude is indeed true, that would indicate to me that this board has a number of unemployed or aspiring DCs. Otherwise how in the sam hell would they know a damn thing about it?

    Granted some of you have not the inkling of a clue or ability to play CB at even the high school level, but you sure seem to have a knack for knowing how that and other positions on defense should be played by the Rams current players. In other words, on one hand you criticize the players in the secondary and on the other you also criticize Marmie for not coaching a properly designed scheme.

    But let's stay with the coaches.

    Reason being:

    I have read this type of statement numerous times from different posters.

    "Marmie could not do a damn thing with the most talented defensive players in the NFL"

    So, I am curious as to what the Rams fans that post on this board would do with this defense as far as scheme?

    Give it to me straight-up and in depth. Don't hold back. I want to know why Marmie is such an idiot. Tell me everything in detail. Give me your best defensive stuff, as if you were applying for the job.

    I know it's in you, otherwise how would you know its all Marmie's scheme?

    Cmon guys, please do this. The secret is out and its time to reveal all your knowledge. The Rams need your help. And most of all, I want to learn. Please teach me, oh wise and noble ones.




  2. #2
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Just Curious....

    Okay, I'll play along.

    I can't dance. However, if I go to a ballet, and the lead performer (even one who has had many years with a premier ballet company) is out of step with the music, I can still criticize.

    I can't perform surgery. However, if I go to a doctor (even one who has had a successful practice for years) and he, instead of removing a bone spur in my ankle, amputates my arm, I can still criticize.

    I can't fly a plane. However, if I go on an airline and the pilot (even one who has been a pilot for years) forgets to put down the landing gear, I can still criticize.

    So, even if I could not play or coach in the NFL, when I see coaches run schemes that produce results that are so bad that EVEN I can see their structural flaws, I have every right to criticize.

    Maybe the Rams defensive schemes would work with different players, at a different level of competition, or in a different era. However, our defensive coaches seem to be oblivious to the corollary to the old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"...

    If it is broke, fix it.

  3. #3
    Curly Horns's Avatar
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    Re: Just Curious....

    I wonder if each and every team in the NFL employs the same types of schemes?

    To me, it looks like most of the teams are running the same types of schemes. Most of the analysts keep referring to the same schemes when they are analyzing all of the teams.

    But maybe that is not the case?

    Maybe each and every team has its own unique scheme?

    If that is the case then only 15 of the 32 teams do not need scheme fixes or new coaches, because they have a winning record. The other 17 teams have idiots running their idiotic schemes and those idiots should be fired. That has happened before, but for some reason, these same idiots always seem to re-surface with another team.

    Hey maybe it is a good old boys coaching fraternity that keeps these guys employed? If you aren't in the fraternity you can't get a job, otherwise you might infringe on the status quo and show these idiots up?



  4. #4
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    Re: Just Curious....

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    Okay, I'll play along.

    I can't dance. However, if I go to a ballet, and the lead performer (even one who has had many years with a premier ballet company) is out of step with the music, I can still criticize.

    I can't perform surgery. However, if I go to a doctor (even one who has had a successful practice for years) and he, instead of removing a bone spur in my ankle, amputates my arm, I can still criticize.

    I can't fly a plane. However, if I go on an airline and the pilot (even one who has been a pilot for years) forgets to put down the landing gear, I can still criticize.

    So, even if I could not play or coach in the NFL, when I see coaches run schemes that produce results that are so bad that EVEN I can see their structural flaws, I have every right to criticize.

    Maybe the Rams defensive schemes would work with different players, at a different level of competition, or in a different era. However, our defensive coaches seem to be oblivious to the corollary to the old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"...

    If it is broke, fix it.

    I agree with what you said (AV) , But I do understand what (FERTERS) saying to...I played high school ball and and college ball , But that does not make me someone who knows what the next step is for our team , Iam not their
    Iam not having to deal with all the other problems that in my mind are playing much bigger part of what is going on right now...ferter I think as you know as a Ram for life fan that most of us here and around the world who are RAM Fans our HEART is broken over the way things have come down this year , I feel alot of the feeling that we are seeing and hearing here is alot of fans trying to in their own minds ? wondering what can be done , Who is to blame and how can we fix it...I think
    both have your points , It just how one looks at it and feels ...I dont mean to ride the fence but thats how I feel



    Attachment 535
    Last edited by OldRamsfan; -12-12-2005 at 04:45 PM.

  5. #5
    rampete is offline Registered User
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    Re: Just Curious....

    ferter, i don't believe marmie is an "idiot" nor a "moron". he's probably a very intelligent man who really knows his x's and o's with the best of them in the league...

    having said that, i don't believe marmie is a good leader. his lack of leadership and the inability to inspire the good players to play great, the avg. players to play good has been evident the past two seasons...

    his overly complex defensive schemes is a read and react system not very much unlike bud carson's system the rams employed in '99 and '00...but that requires experienced and smart players that display discipline and focus...lovie's system worked better, perhaps not because the system is better designed, but because the players had less responsibilities in understanding the scheme (cover-2 is supposed to be one of the least complex) and their roles in it. imo, lovie emphasized and prioritized athleticism and hustle ove technique and discipline, which may work to an advantage for the younger, less experienced and savvy-less defender...

    now, if marmie was the DC for a proven group of veteran defenders, like the pats or steelers, you may see a different result...but, here we are...the rams are not playing well, especially defensively, and the proof is on the tape...either adjust the scheme to fit the personnel or get a new schemer...
    Last edited by rampete; -11-23-2005 at 01:28 PM.

  6. #6
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Just Curious....

    The one thing everyone can agree upon is that the defense is bad and something must be done.

    If you believe that the players are so lacking in talent that they would fail in any scheme, you have the right to that opinion. Of course, that conclusion would require an overhaul of the defensive roster, which is very difficult given salary cap issues and the difficulty in obtaining good players at multiple positions in a short period of time.

    I believe that there is a need for more talent on defense, but that the schemes being run are poorly conceived.

    For example:

    During the Monday Night Football game against the Colts, John Madden remarked that that Rams line up with more space between their defensive linemen than any other team. That's a Hall of Fame NFL coach saying that. After hearing that comment, I can personally observe teams having success running between the tackles. Clearly, these two things are related.

    I also can observe the Rams lining up their CBs 10 yards off the ball and allowing easy completions on slants play after play. Again, I don't have to be an NFL coach to know that the other team is taking advantage of the scheme being used.

  7. #7
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    Re: Just Curious....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter

    This basically sums up the general attitude here at the Clan.
    no it does not. It might sum up the general majority of POSTS but since the there are far more members than those that post, your statment is incorrect. I, for example, do not follow all those points.



  8. #8
    rampete is offline Registered User
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    Re: Just Curious....

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    ...During the Monday Night Football game against the Colts, John Madden remarked that that Rams line up with more space between their defensive linemen than any other team. That's a Hall of Fame NFL coach saying that. After hearing that comment, I can personally observe teams having success running between the tackles. Clearly, these two things are related.

    I also can observe the Rams lining up their CBs 10 yards off the ball and allowing easy completions on slants play after play. Again, I don't have to be an NFL coach to know that the other team is taking advantage of the scheme being used.

    valid points, however, you may want to factor in the possibility that marmie schemes call for these to entice the opposing offense into mistakes...the trouble may be that the rams defenders are good at conceiling and baiting but poor at adjusting to take advantage of the ruse...this is what's great about the pats defense, they're great at confusing the opponents into making mistakes by showing one alignment before the snap and adjusting to another after the snap...

    at least, i'd like to think that is what's happening...

  9. #9
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Just Curious....

    My biggest problem with Marmie is that his schemes have NEVER worked on a consistent basis.

    He's been an NFL defensive coordinator for 5 years now, and here's where his defenses have ranked in yards allowed:

    2001: Arizona - 29th
    2002: Arizona - 29th
    2003: Arizona - 26th
    2004: St. Louis - 17th
    2005: St. Louis - 29th

    The aggregate record of the teams he's coached as DC over that five year span is 28-46.

    Again, if anyone wants to take the role of "Marmie apologist" they can argue that he's never had good players over that 5 year span, and that he is, as Mike Martz describe him, "the best."

    I don't buy it.

  10. #10
    Curly Horns's Avatar
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    Re: Just Curious....

    Too complex? Hmmm, maybe so, but it seems to me there are enough other coaches who would recognize this if it were indeed true.

    The offense is billed as very complex and yet other young players have been able to grasp it.

    Maybe defensive players are not as smart?

    I like Madden, but he tends to blow a lot of smoke at times. Do you suppose he has acurately measured the distance between the lineman on every defensive line in the league. I will say it is not that visible with the naked eye. I see highlights of all the other teams and I honestly can't say I agree with what madden says. Not to mention the teams that are using the 3-4.

    I watch a lot of the NFL network. They show a lot of highlights and break down plays and schemes that all the teams are using. Believe it or not most teams are running the same schemes. Situations might be different in which they use the schemes, but the schemes are the same. Every team in the league has their CBs lining up close to 5-10 yards off the receiver on numerous plays. Not every play for every team, but many plays from all teams.

    If the CB lines up in the receivers face on every play and gets beat 3 out of 5 times, will that make you feel that it is the player getting beat or will it again be the scheme? You know, it is called defense. You are under attack. You have to defend something. Sometimes that means you can not defend everything. Whether we like it or not the rules in the NFL do indeed favor the offense.

    I really don't understand the thinking sometimes. It's as if some of you think that a pass should never be completed, or the run should never work, against our D and yet our O should complete every pass and run the ball at will. I guess the simplest thing to do is blame the coach or the scheme when players do not execute and get beat.

    This is a players game, always has been and always will be. Right now the Rams players on defense are simply getting their butts beat by the opposition. Their is some talent on that unit, but it is far and few between.



  11. #11
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Just Curious....

    I sense, ferter, that your only point is to be a Devil's advocate.

    So, let me ask you a simple and direct question:

    Do you think the Rams should bring Larry Marmie back next year as their Defensive Coordinator?

  12. #12
    Curly Horns's Avatar
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    Re: Just Curious....

    You know, it's funny how my questions never get answered and then get twisted into a question for me.

    I don't know that Marmie is as bad as some claim. I really do not. I'm not saying he is a great coach. I am saying he seems to be typical.

    I really do not know how to evaluate a coach based on scheme, when I see all the other teams running the same schemes. And like I said before these same guys keep turning up with different teams.

    I will say Martz frustrates me more with his offensive schemes and decisions than Marmie does. Maybe it is because they are more visible. Plays designed to leave the QB unprotected and end up getting him hurt. Playing conservative with close to two minutes left and going for a tie in a home playoff game when you have the D on their heels. Those are the types of things that lead me to feel a coach should be fired.

    I just don't know about Marmie. Maybe he is as bad as some claim and should be let go, but at the same time, I do feel that most of these defensive players need to be gone as well.



  13. #13
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Just Curious....

    The problem with riding the fence like that is that you tend to get splinters in your a$$.

    Its a simple question - should the Rams stick with Marmie next year or find someone else?

    I think the Rams should get someone else. That doesn't mean I think Marmie is a moron or an idiot. It just means that he has not done a good job and I think someone else might do better.

  14. #14
    Curly Horns's Avatar
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    Re: Just Curious....

    Oh boy!

    I'm not riding the fence. I did not agree with the hiring to begin with. My basis was his past track record. To me, it was just another absurd decision by Martz. I thought at that time, Martz hired Marmie, more out of close friendship, rather than proven performance as a DC. My feelings at that time had nothing to do with Marmie's scheme.

    Others defended the hiring by claiming Marmie never had talented players. Some even went as far as defending Marmie after last season and early on this season. That would lead me to believe those same folks never had a problem with his scheme.

    Now many want to fire him based on his scheme. I'd like to truly understand, from these folks, what is so bad about his scheme. No one seems to have any answers to substantiate this, rather, they just say his scheme sucks.

    In other words, now, most all of you can't live with the guy, while I never wanted the guy to begin with.

    Who has been riding the fence and now wants off?

    Does that answer your question?



  15. #15
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Just Curious....

    No, it only avoids it.

    I've given you examples of problems with Marmie's scheme. You choose to ignore or minimize these concerns.

    I have never been a Marmie fan. I wanted the Rams to hire Rex Ryan who, at the time, was the LB coach in Baltimore and now is their DC (their defense is currently ranked #2 in the league, by the way).

    You're the one who started a thread criticizing those who have expressed their frustration with Marmie, and now you say you've always been anti-Marmie.

    Sounds like you're just trying to stir things up, doesn't it?

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