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Thread: At least this certain someone had balls...

  1. #16
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    Re: At least this certain someone had balls...

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Such glorious days. Back when the Rams played games that actually mattered.
    Those were indeed glorious days. Unfortunately, the glory included failures at the most critical times and a lasting legacy of lunacy and dysfunction. Who could forget the bizarre confrontation where Martz accused Kyle Turley of threatening to kill him? Or the equally bizarre "throat slashing" voice mail incident with Samir Suleiman? Or how about Martz trying to "sneak" a note into the coaches booth when on medical leave and told to stay away from the team? Then there was his stubborn support for Larry Marmie as the defense crumbled, and the weekly mantra of "Shoot, we'll fix that".

    The dysfunction followed him to Detroit and San Francisco where he created strife and confrontation before being unceremoniously run out of both those towns.

    The "madness" of Mike Martz is a double edged sword, and no NFL franchise is willing to put him in charge to unleash it.
    Last edited by r8rh8rmike; -12-07-2011 at 02:21 PM.


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    Re: At least this certain someone had balls...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike
    Those were indeed glorious days. Unfortunately, the glory included failures at the most critical times
    As opposed to now which includes failures ALL the time.
    RealRam and Tampa_Ram like this.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: At least this certain someone had balls...

    I think where Martz really failed the Rams the most, was with his arrogance on draft day.
    Make no mistake, Martz had his failing pet projects (Trung Canidate, anyone?), but it's not as if he had the control on draft day. Reports offer that Zygmunt (a true incompetent) had as much or more shot-calling than Martz.
    But he was never the catalyst behind the Rams. I give that credit to Dick Vermeil.
    Vermeil did nothing with this team until Martz came along. Nothing.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: At least this certain someone had balls...

    And now that this "Martz inherited a great team" myth has once again raised its silly noggin, I have to ask: Martz got here in '99. Who exactly did he "inherit" from that '98 roster?

    He inherited Bruce, Fletcher, Pace, & Kevin Carter. That's just about it. They were 4-12. How did he inherit a great team?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: At least this certain someone had balls...

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    As opposed to now which includes failures ALL the time.
    You'll get no argument from me on this point, but that doesn't change the fact that Martz is not NFL head coaching material. He's an agent of dysfunction and IMO would fall flat trying to build a team, any team in chaos. Getting the good without the bad would be great, but it doesn't work that way. He's six years removed from his time with the Rams, yet hasn't received one iota of interest from any NFL team about a head coaching opportunity. That's unambiguously telling.

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    Re: At least this certain someone had balls...

    Quote Originally Posted by RebelYell View Post
    I agree. People fail to recognize that Martz never had a pro scout on his staff to evaluate free agent signings and they purchased scouting reports for the draft (the cheap way to do things and the way the Bengals and Big Red did things - it's known to fail - it's how internet geniuses rank players). People blame Martz for things that were completely out of his control. He never should have been made GM but who's to say a GM would have helped with the structure in place?

    Martz was a difference maker who made things dynamic. Before he arrived the Rams were tied with the Bengals for the worst record in the NFL for the previous decade (wait, I thought he inherited a great team?). Since he's left the Rams have been one of the worst franchises again. In the short time he was here we went to three NFC Championship games and won 2 of them. Obviously that's the sort of success the Rams should consider a failure and they should destroy in favor of the awesome Linehan. [/eyeroll]

    People routinely ignore or fail to remember that prior to the '99 season, Vermeil wanted Banks to stay at QB, Martz was forced on him & Vermeil didn't want Faulk because he was threatening to hold out for a new contract (why Indy traded him). Our starting WR in '98 was Eddie Kennison, he started 13 games and ended the season with 17 receptions. That's what was considered acceptable with Vermeil.
    I didn't know about most of the above. It certainly changes how I'll view things regarding MM.?
    Information about the Rams back then, was very thin on the ground in the U.K.

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    Re: At least this certain someone had balls...

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike View Post
    You'll get no argument from me on this point, but that doesn't change the fact that Martz is not NFL head coaching material. He's an agent of dysfunction and IMO would fall flat trying to build a team, any team in chaos. Getting the good without the bad would be great, but it doesn't work that way. He's six years removed from his time with the Rams, yet hasn't received one iota of interest from any NFL team about a head coaching opportunity. That's unambiguously telling.
    Certainly a possibility. But I would be very interested in seeing how he would do with asset of time/experience, and without the liability of Zygmunt.

    He's certainly flawed. But he's also the only Rams HC with a winning record since John Robinson, and the highest win percentage since George Allen.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: At least this certain someone had balls...

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Certainly a possibility. But I would be very interested in seeing how he would do with asset of time/experience, and without the liability of Zygmunt.

    He's certainly flawed. But he's also the only Rams HC with a winning record since John Robinson, and the highest win percentage since George Allen.
    I can understand the desire to see what Martz could do with the Rams given his past success, but I think Kroenke is smart enough to stay away from a problematic figure who's negatives outweigh his positives. I'd be shocked to see Stan give Martz a chance.

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    Re: At least this certain someone had balls...

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Certainly a possibility. But I would be very interested in seeing how he would do with asset of time/experience, and without the liability of Zygmunt.

    He's certainly flawed. But he's also the only Rams HC with a winning record since John Robinson, and the highest win percentage since George Allen.
    Barry Switzer had a winning record with Dallas and you'll note he's hardly considered great pro coaching material. Again- we're grasping at straws because our team is so pathetic, and make no mistake about it: asking for Martz again is grasping at straws. I don't think he'll ever get another head coaching gig.

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    Re: At least this certain someone had balls...

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Make no mistake, Martz had his failing pet projects (Trung Canidate, anyone?), but it's not as if he had the control on draft day. Reports offer that Zygmunt (a true incompetent) had as much or more shot-calling than Martz. Vermeil did nothing with this team until Martz came along. Nothing.
    Can you just clear something up for me. Who's idea was it to bring Trent Green, Marshall Faulk in before 1999. Did Vermiel have no say what so ever in personnel matters.?

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    Re: At least this certain someone had balls...

    The thing about Martz and his decisions was that he couldn't win. Whatever he did he was criticised if the outcome didn't work.

    2002, at the Washington Redskins. It's 17-20. The Rams have already scored once in the fourth quarter to bring the game close, and with 3:28 remaining the Rams have driven from their 20 down to the Redskins 6 yard line. There are 17 seconds left, so the Rams go for the TD and the win rather than taking the FG and the momentum into overtime. Warner drops back, is sacked by LaVar Arrington, fumbles and the Skins recover to preserve victory.

    So a year later, in the Playoffs against Carolina. Martz decides to take the FG and the momentum into overtime instead of trying for the win potentially ending the game right there. The Rams had rallied from an 11 point deficit. In the end, the Panthers win in the second period of overtime and Martz is criticised for not taking a shot to win the game.
    Ramone likes this.

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    Re: At least this certain someone had balls...

    Quote Originally Posted by tomahawk247 View Post
    The thing about Martz and his decisions was that he couldn't win. Whatever he did he was criticised if the outcome didn't work.

    2002, at the Washington Redskins. It's 17-20. The Rams have already scored once in the fourth quarter to bring the game close, and with 3:28 remaining the Rams have driven from their 20 down to the Redskins 6 yard line. There are 17 seconds left, so the Rams go for the TD and the win rather than taking the FG and the momentum into overtime. Warner drops back, is sacked by LaVar Arrington, fumbles and the Skins recover to preserve victory.

    So a year later, in the Playoffs against Carolina. Martz decides to take the FG and the momentum into overtime instead of trying for the win potentially ending the game right there. The Rams had rallied from an 11 point deficit. In the end, the Panthers win in the second period of overtime and Martz is criticised for not taking a shot to win the game.
    I could understand your point if someone was slamming Martz for what he did against Washington, or that he had a tendency to get conservative at the end of games with opportunities to win, but that isn't the case.

    The premise of this discussion was that Martz had "balls" and that he was always competitive. I countered that contention with the Carolina example. where he completely lost his nerve and played not to lose.

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    Re: At least this certain someone had balls...

    Quote Originally Posted by GROUND DOG 39 View Post
    Can you just clear something up for me. Who's idea was it to bring Trent Green, Marshall Faulk in before 1999. Did Vermiel have no say what so ever in personnel matters.?
    I would be greatly surprised if Vermeil didn't have a hand in that. Who's saying he didn't?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: At least this certain someone had balls...

    Hey now, Martz is an ex-HC, and dont a lot of you want to bring in someone with HC experience? he also has plenty of assistant coaching experience.

    Now im not advocating Martz as our next HC. but heck, he has more experience then a lot of people out there and with a better FO and such, it could work. anythings possible.

    The only thing i could see bad happening is him trying to control the offense and OC to much.

    The draft is the GM's decision as to who we pick, and the coach and coordinators only have an opinion on the matter, in the end its the GM's decision when it comes draft/FA time.

    next thought is: Most HC's do better in there 2nd stint. a lot of coaches failed there first time around, but after being fired and working again as a coordinator were brought back to be a HC of a team, and some have done pretty good. Basically a lot of them learned from there mistakes in the past.

    like i said, im not advicating Martz as our next HC, but he certainly deserves a look.

    Anyone but Spags in 2012!!!

    P.A.S.S.


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    Re: At least this certain someone had balls...

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    I would be greatly surprised if Vermeil didn't have a hand in that. Who's saying he didn't?
    Im just trying to get a clearer picture, of what went on. Its been a long time.

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