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  1. #31
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Let's discuss Richie Incognito

    I will say this, though...

    He is a damn handsome man:



  2. #32
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Let's discuss Richie Incognito

    Quote Originally Posted by idrd View Post
    As far as sacks allowed ? The NFL teams do not keep counts, the NFL teams do not put up who was repsonsible for sacks, the NFL teams take that sack number from an outside agency. Know who owns that agency? The associated press. In laymens terms, the announcers and media count the sacks and label who was responsible for them, not the team. The team only counts total sacks.
    In comments made to the Cumberland County Sentinel, Steelers offensive coordinator Bruce Arians seemed pretty interested in the sack counts and who was responsible for them:

    The Steelers didn’t take an offensive lineman until the 79th pick, when they selected 6-5, 328-pound Wisconsin tackle Kraig Urbik. But all those sacks in ‘09 weren’t necessarily the fault of a lax O-line, as Arians pointed out.

    “They only gave up 19 sacks last year of the 46,” the offensive coordinator said. “Running backs, tight ends, receivers and quarterbacks gave up most of the rest. Those guys, every time there’s a sack it has to be the offensive linemen but a lot of times it was a receiver missing the hot read, the quarterback getting himself sacked a few times, because he likes to run around. We’re not going to change that.”
    Frankly I would think it would be pretty irresponsible and ineffective coaching if the staff did not pay attention to which player on the field allowed the sack to occur, considering that's something they'd likely want to improve upon in an effort to get better.

    You also claim that the individual sack total is a farce, yet at the same time, you believe NFL teams use these numbers. How do you reconcile that? Why would NFL teams use the numbers if they are a farce as you claim? Doesn't make much sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by idrd View Post
    The OT for the Buffalo Bills SUPPOSEDLY gave up something like 12 sacks last year, he went to the pro bowl.
    And defensive back Roy Williams went to the Pro Bowl five times in seven years, yet I doubt there are many knowledgeable NFL viewers that would consider him a top player at his position.

    If we've learned anything about the Pro Bowl over the past few years, it's that the best guys from that year don't always get in, and sometimes, players who didn't do quite as well during the season make the team based on their reputation rather than outstanding performance. See: Jason Peters in 2008. Another example would be Derrick Brooks in 2008. Brooks wasn't even his team's defensive leader in tackles last year, but was Tampa's only defensive representative in Hawaii.

    This is likely especially true for offensive linemen, because if I remember correctly, no stats of any kind are listed with their names on the online Pro Bowl ballot except perhaps games played or number of starts. I would wager few Pro Bowl voters - fans, players, or coaches - actually take the time to research OL for their votes. So for them, it's likely largely based on reputation for many voters. And Peters has the reputation as being one of the best young up-and-coming left tackles in the league.

    Quote Originally Posted by idrd View Post
    So please, cut the crap with the sack responsibility, its been blown out the window a loooooong time ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by idrd View Post
    Ah the old sack count again. Please explain why Lecky was only credited with 2 for the entire year. I will wait. Also, if Jason Peter supposedly had over 11, how does he make the Pro Bowl. Again, I will wait.
    Well I've offered a reasonable explanation as to why Peters made the Pro Bowl despite allowing 11.5 sacks in 13 games. So there's that.

    As for Leckey and the legitimacy of the sack stat itself, let me counter with this.

    If you believe the sack count is faulty or inaccurate, then YOU need to provide supporting evidence to demonstrate that rather than putting the burden of proof on others to disprove your largely unsupported claims. Because they are your claims, not anyone else's. If you think Leckey should have been credited with more (or less) than two sacks, then let's see some weight behind that. Point to the specific plays from specific games that show he was responsible for sacks that were not credited to him. As you said earlier, I'll be happy to wait.

    Earlier you criticized the media and this stat agency for having no clue who is to block who on different plays, and while I'm not sure how you would have any better knowledge of the Rams' playbook and blocking assignments, it'd be much easier to agree with your position if you provided a detailed analysis that shows how a specific lineman should have been credited with a sack but was not. If you're claiming the numbers are bogus, then YOU need to support your own claim. Demanding others prove your unsupported claims wrong in order to convince you is a poor way to make your case.



    Anyways, to get back to the original topic of the thread, I don't think the Rams had anything to lose by keeping Incognito as a RFA. The cost was low, the compensation had someone made him an offer was good, and with him back, they retain someone with starter's experience and maintain good personnel and depth at guard.

    I'm not an Incognito fan as I feel his blocking is generally overrated - on top of the sack numbers and the penalties, the Rams ranked dead last running behind right guard in 2008 - but the Rams made the right call by keeping him as a RFA if only because they get a starter back and get to keep young guys like Greco and Setterstrom for depth.

    But now, Richie has to prove he can do something he hasn't done in college or in the pros under numerous coaches - keep his cool and play efficiently. Attitude is worthless if you can't keep it from costing your team on the playing field. And Incognito has not shown a consistent ability to do that. I think tough, aggressive linemen are what this offense needs, but not ones that are so aggressive that they're repeatedly penalized for their behavior and are considered by others to be a dirty player. If Spagnuolo and his staff can finally get Incognito to play not just with aggression but with control, then I think the Rams will benefit. If they can't, I hope Richie finds a new home in 2010.
    Last edited by Nick; -06-23-2009 at 10:36 PM.

  3. #33
    idrd is offline Registered User
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    Re: Let's discuss Richie Incognito

    I said the team uses the total sack count, they do not assign individual blame. When you cut something into miniscule pieces, please do it correctly.

    As far as evidence on Leckey? Please watch any tape of any game he ever played, NFL, Kansas State or Pop Warner. If you even need to ask for evidence that Nick Leckey gave up more then two sacks then I have to appologize as I will not even waste my time dissecting you questions. Sit back, dissect and watch the upgrade in the Oline and both guards with a real center in there.

    I will not entertain or even look into your sophmoric requests. The proof is in front of your face, look at it and take the stats and please, put them where the sun never shines because thats where they belong.

    Here, want to dissect something ? Anser this if you can,
    A What site do these stats originate from
    B Who owns the site
    C Who determines the stats
    D What entity purchases the stats from the above mentioned site
    E Show proof of each of the 32 teams that keep such individual stats. Not fantasy sites, not the site in question but one or any of the actual 32 NFL teams.

    I will give you a hint on one of the questions, E None of them.

    Yes, I do know the answers to each of the questions to be dissected that were presented to you. Now, do the research and post your findings. If they are correct, great, if you do not know the answers then please, tell us so. I have time. Going on vacation and haven't the remote interest of even being near a Blackberry or anything to do with the internet. I leave Sat. so if you cannot complete the dissection of my questions by then you will have to wait until the first week of August. Best of luck !!!

  4. #34
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Let's discuss Richie Incognito

    Quote Originally Posted by idrd View Post
    I said the team uses the total sack count, they do not assign individual blame.
    Yeah, not quite. Arians' quote clearly demonstrates there's at least one NFL team (and I'd wager they're not out of the ordinary) that examines who is responsible for yielding sacks. To argue that teams do not take steps to determine which player is responsible for breakdowns in pass protection is so illogical that it blows my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by idrd View Post
    As far as evidence on Leckey? Please watch any tape of any game he ever played, NFL, Kansas State or Pop Warner. If you even need to ask for evidence that Nick Leckey gave up more then two sacks then I have to appologize as I will not even waste my time dissecting you questions.
    Quote Originally Posted by idrd View Post
    I will not entertain or even look into your sophmoric requests.
    ...so, that's a "no" on actually backing up what you say? Alright, thanks for clearing that up.

    I'll say again - YOUR opinion, YOUR claim, YOUR job to support it.

    Members of the Clan are welcome to whatever opinion they want, but they've got to be ready to back it up. That means actually providing support for your claims and opinions rather than just pretending everything you say is fact and demanding everyone else who disagrees must prove you wrong.

    Sorry, but that style (and the attitude that has accompanied it thus far in this thread) just isn't going to convince anyone. The burden of proof for your opinion lies with YOU, not anyone else. This tactic of demanding others put in the time and effort to counter the claims you're unwilling to back up is nothing short of ridiculous.

  5. #35
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    Re: Let's discuss Richie Incognito

    cogs just needs a tough coach and a multi-year deal to be a pro-bowler. his dobler-esque attitude can cause hesitation which is as good as it gets.

    ps. sorry old cardinal memories slipping through.
    Last edited by dpier1mc; -06-24-2009 at 07:41 AM.

  6. #36
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    Re: Let's discuss Richie Incognito

    I have always wanted to know how they give the stats for who gives up the sack. A defensive tackle could beat a guard and the quarterback will try to scramble out of the pocket to avoid the DT only to be sacked by the DE. Do they say that the OT gave up the sack in that situation even though it wasn't his fault the sack happened.

  7. #37
    HUbison's Avatar
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    Re: Let's discuss Richie Incognito

    Quote Originally Posted by jmk321 View Post
    I have always wanted to know how they give the stats for who gives up the sack. A defensive tackle could beat a guard and the quarterback will try to scramble out of the pocket to avoid the DT only to be sacked by the DE. Do they say that the OT gave up the sack in that situation even though it wasn't his fault the sack happened.
    That's a heck of a question. Each team has its system, because they've got to have some way to grade out their linemen, individually. But, by golly if I know what that is.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  8. #38
    r8rh8rmike's Avatar
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    Re: Let's discuss Richie Incognito

    Quote Originally Posted by idrd View Post
    I said the team uses the total sack count, they do not assign individual blame. When you cut something into miniscule pieces, please do it correctly.

    As far as evidence on Leckey? Please watch any tape of any game he ever played, NFL, Kansas State or Pop Warner. If you even need to ask for evidence that Nick Leckey gave up more then two sacks then I have to appologize as I will not even waste my time dissecting you questions. Sit back, dissect and watch the upgrade in the Oline and both guards with a real center in there.

    I will not entertain or even look into your sophmoric requests. The proof is in front of your face, look at it and take the stats and please, put them where the sun never shines because thats where they belong.

    Here, want to dissect something ? Anser this if you can,
    A What site do these stats originate from
    B Who owns the site
    C Who determines the stats
    D What entity purchases the stats from the above mentioned site
    E Show proof of each of the 32 teams that keep such individual stats. Not fantasy sites, not the site in question but one or any of the actual 32 NFL teams.

    I will give you a hint on one of the questions, E None of them.

    Yes, I do know the answers to each of the questions to be dissected that were presented to you. Now, do the research and post your findings. If they are correct, great, if you do not know the answers then please, tell us so. I have time. Going on vacation and haven't the remote interest of even being near a Blackberry or anything to do with the internet. I leave Sat. so if you cannot complete the dissection of my questions by then you will have to wait until the first week of August. Best of luck !!!
    All that chest thumping, yet nothing of substance to back it up. Maybe you should stop demanding of others what you can't produce yourself. I would think that since your knowledge of football is so superior to everybody here, you'd be able to wow us. As of yet, not so much.

  9. #39
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Let's discuss Richie Incognito

    We all hope Richie Incognito plays up to his potential this year. However, anyone who would argue that he has already done so is (a) kidding himself, (b) a friend or family member of Incognito's, or (c) both.

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