Linehan vs Martz Regime

[STLRAMSFAN]

I agree with you, but this thread was never about information or taking a stand. It was from the beginning about hating Martz. It's exactly the same as all the "I hate Martz" threads that were going around back last season. Everything from these people is "I believe" or "I think" or "In my opinion". There is no information, just pure speculation and hate.

Where have you really heard me bash Martz in this thread? I have not been bashing Martz I am thankful for his years here as the head coach. If it were up to me though and I had to make the decision between Martz and his choice for coaches or Linehan and his choice for coaches to lead our Rams it would be Linehan for me. I realize Martz may have changed his staff but our special teams have been in sad shape and the defense with Marmie for two years running has been horrible. It does not make me feel good that Martz can turn those two areas around. I am thankful for what he did but I lost a lot of faith in Martz as a head coach.

But if those people really want some speculation, I'll give it to them. If Martz and the FO got along (as the original question posed), there would be no Linehan.

If Martz and the FO got along, Marmie wouldn't have been hired in the first place.
If Martz and the FO got along, the roster would be vastly different as Zygmunt wouldn't be blocking Martz' personnel decisions.
If Martz and the FO got along, FA's wouldn't be scared away by the in-fighting.
If Martz and the FO got along, things would be more like 1999-2001 when they DID get along.

If Martz and the FO got along, none of us would even know the name Scott Linehan.

If Martz and the FO got along, the idea of getting rid of Martz would not even be considered as rational thought.

I think someone needs anger management. Come on its easy to make the call after the fact. We had several threads that were aimed at grading the moves of Linehan and his staff. Were those all speculation also. Because no one attacked those threads. Is it speculation that the FO would rather have Linehan then Martz. NO.
Its not speculation that I know I would rather have Linehan then Martz coaching this team. That was the question that was asked of every one. This is a similar question the FO had to ask them selves in getting rid of Martz. They asked themselves if they thought they would be better off going in another direction. Was it speculation that they thought they would be better off? Yes. Was it speculation that they thought they did not want Martz. No.
This thread was not based on speculation. It was not based on who is better. It was based on people’s preference about which they would rather have even if Martz did not have FO problems. It was about making a decision on which they would rather start this season with. It was NOT about whom do you think the better coach IS or WILL BE.

[Varg6]

Fact is...the FO is a lot smarter than we all thought, and they couldn't wait for Martz to pack up and leave, now they're happy with this guy, and did some good things..

[Roy G. Biv]

Come on its easy to make the call after the fact. We had several threads that were aimed at grading the moves of Linehan and his staff. Were those all speculation also.

Yes, they were. Why? Because we have no idea how Linehan's team will perform. So yes, by definition, that is speculation.

Its not speculation that I know I would rather have Linehan then Martz coaching this team

It's a fact that you want Linehan over Martz, but you're reasons for that are pure speculation. Why? Because you have absolutely no conclusive evidence to choose Linehan over Martz.

This thread was not based on speculation.

This thread is entirely speculation. Your original post laid out several points, none of which pointed to anything conclusive in favor of Linehan over Martz. It was all he-said, she-said and your personal feelings. That my friend is speculation.

There's nothing wrong with speculation, but don't wrap it up as if you've presented factual evidence to reach some conclusion about which coach we should be more "comfortable" with. It's just random opinions. Sure, we can all feel good about Linehan if we choose to. I do. But to even mention Linehan and Martz in the same sentence in some form of comparison has no basis whatsoever.

It was based on people’s preference about which they would rather have even if Martz did not have FO problems

As I said before, if Martz and Zygmunt were getting along, this wouldn't even be a question. There would be no Linehan.

Where have you really heard me bash Martz in this thread?

Are you kidding? Ok, here we go.

IMO I think the players are happy to be rid of Martz.

Martz took over a Super Bowl team that had more talent assembled on the offensive side then ever before seen. Martz regime his last two years had a losing record and could not get the offense to perform like it used to over the last two years. Linehans regime now takes over a 6-10 team that has been declining offensively the last three years. Martz took over this team at its best and never won a SuperBowl as a head coach yet some would think he was the next Lombardi. I am not comparing Linehan to Martz at this point. Linehan was not even dealt as good of a hand as what Martz was with Bruce, Holt, Hakim, Proehl, and Faulk in their prime and a better defense. Linehan is not inheriting a SuperBowl winner we did not even make the playoff and the year before we were just 8-8 during the regular season and got embarrassed in the playoffs by Atlanta. My point is even had Martz got along with the front office I would feel more comfortable with Linehan and his coaches entering the season then I would with Martz and his.

Of course, fell free to ignore the fact that Martz built the team you say he inherited. Never mind that he had to re-build that shoddy defense he was handed. Look over the fact that Zygmunt blocked the re-signing of Conwell and Wistrom. Forget about, the often lauded Lovie Smith who wanted Duncan over Fletcher. And by all means, it is certainly Martz' fault for not holding back the hands of time. I mean who does he think he is letting guys like Faulk get older?

But I digress, let's go ahead with you "not bashing Martz".

I just said if Martz did not have FO problems would you feel more comfortable with Martz or Linehans regime going into the season and for me its still Linehan all the way.

I feel more comfortable with Linehan then I do Martz after seeing how this team has been falling apart under his control recently.

if I had to make the decision between Linehan and his staff or Martz and his going into this season it would be Linehan for me. Regardless of Martz having FO problems or not.

Martz allowed his starting QB to take a lot of hits with his offense.

Yep, had nothing to do with an aging O-line or Jackson's inability to block anybody last year. It was all Martz "allowing" it.

IMO I don't think there would be any chance of Martz hiring Haslett had he stayed. He has to big of an ego to have another strong willed person around like Haslett. I also don't think we would have got Gus because it was Linehan who persuaded him. IMO Haslett helped persuade the defensive signings of Glover and Fahkir who both played for him. I think Spoon and Chavous were also persuaded by playing for Haslett. This is just my opinion I cannot prove or disprove it. But this is another part of why I am happy that we went in a different direction even if the FO would have got along with Martz.

I have not been bashing Martz I am thankful for his years here as the head coach.

LOL, yea it sounds like you're thankful.

Look, STL, it's like this; you're a one-trick pony. You hate Martz, and you want everyone else to hate Martz. Don't be ashamed of it. Embrace it. Look at Rebel13. He embraces the fact that all he posts about is how bad he hates Martz. It's okay, dude, don't be ashamed of it. People may not agree with it, but it's your god given right to hate whoever you want, Martz or otherwise.

But for those of us who have moved on, we find these "I hate Martz" sort of threads a little, shall I say, obsessive. You can re-write the question any way you want, but it boils down to you hating Martz. Why? He's in Detroit. Let it go.

[AugustaRamFan]

I voted for the new guy; however, the question is a little unfair. How can you even evaluate Linehan's performance when he has not even head coached 1 NFL game? I think my vote was more negative for Martzie (who I still think embodies enourmous offensive brilliance) because it was obvious that the path he chose involved a lot of damaged relationships with his players, coaches, and the media. Lastly, I have to vote a guy of the island if Marmie is even mentioned.

ARF

[RAMMAN68]

Well, to me it seems like there is a breath of fresh air in Rams Park and the players seem to be happy.

I can relate; after five + years in the same job, things are getting stale and a change in scenery is always welcome. .

[ramsbruce]

Yes, they were. Why? Because we have no idea how Linehan's team will perform. So yes, by definition, that is speculation. It's a fact that you want Linehan over Martz, but you're reasons for that are pure speculation. Why? Because you have absolutely no conclusive evidence to choose Linehan over Martz. This thread is entirely speculation. Your original post laid out several points, none of which pointed to anything conclusive in favor of Linehan over Martz. It was all he-said, she-said and your personal feelings. That my friend is speculation.

There's nothing wrong with speculation, but don't wrap it up as if you've presented factual evidence to reach some conclusion about which coach we should be more "comfortable" with. It's just random opinions. Sure, we can all feel good about Linehan if we choose to. I do. But to even mention Linehan and Martz in the same sentence in some form of comparison has no basis whatsoever. As I said before, if Martz and Zygmunt were getting along, this wouldn't even be a question. There would be no Linehan. Are you kidding? Ok, here we go.
Of course, fell free to ignore the fact that Martz built the team you say he inherited. Never mind that he had to re-build that shoddy defense he was handed. Look over the fact that Zygmunt blocked the re-signing of Conwell and Wistrom. Forget about, the often lauded Lovie Smith who wanted Duncan over Fletcher. And by all means, it is certainly Martz' fault for not holding back the hands of time. I mean who does he think he is letting guys like Faulk get older?

But I digress, let's go ahead with you "not bashing Martz". Yep, had nothing to do with an aging O-line or Jackson's inability to block anybody last year. It was all Martz "allowing" it. LOL, yea it sounds like you're thankful.

Look, STL, it's like this; you're a one-trick pony. You hate Martz, and you want everyone else to hate Martz. Don't be ashamed of it. Embrace it. Look at Rebel13. He embraces the fact that all he posts about is how bad he hates Martz. It's okay, dude, don't be ashamed of it. People may not agree with it, but it's your god given right to hate whoever you want, Martz or otherwise.

But for those of us who have moved on, we find these "I hate Martz" sort of threads a little, shall I say, obsessive. You can re-write the question any way you want, but it boils down to you hating Martz. Why? He's in Detroit. Let it go.

That was a detailed and well said post. First it's too early to tell, second Martz is gone, and third Martz made many mistakes, but without him we wouldn't have a Super Bowl win.

[BIG-BLUE]

but without him we wouldn't have a Super Bowl win.

Wait but isn't that just speculation.

[ramsbruce]

Wait but isn't that just speculation.

Maybe, but it's a lot closer to being the truth, than talking about Linehan and Martz.

[STLRAMSFAN]

Its not speculation that I know I would rather have Linehan then Martz coaching this team

It's a fact that you want Linehan over Martz, but you're reasons for that are pure speculation. Why? Because you have absolutely no conclusive evidence to choose Linehan over Martz.

I said all along that you can’t compare them as to who is better. But you can say who you would rather have as head coach. The same as the FO did they could not say who was going to be better but they said who they wanted as head coach next season. In doing so they had to evaluate Martz and that was what I did in evaluating him. I am thankful for Martz time here but I agree its time to move on even if he would not have had FO problems. I by no means tried bashing Martz I was evaluating him. I never said he sucked. I still think IMO it was time to move on. Do I have hard facts that Linehan will be better then Martz no way and I never intended to make this thread about who is better. This whole thread was about who you would rather have. NO ONE CAN SAY WHO THE BETTER COACH IS AT THIS POINT BUT THEY CAN PICK WHO THEY WANT TO START THE SEASON AS HEAD COACH.

This thread is entirely speculation. Your original post laid out several points, none of which pointed to anything conclusive in favor of Linehan over Martz. It was all he-said, she-said and your personal feelings. That my friend is speculation.

1. Bulger seems happier now under the new regime. It sounds like he will have a little more freedom then before and have better protection schemes. Linehan has already said he plans on protecting the QB more then in the past and said he would allow Bulger to audible. Bulger has commented about how he likes what they are doing.
2. Kennedy is making negative comments about Kollars coaching style. Which I don’t think he should make but I can understand how a coach like Kollar could get old after a while to other adults. This is not Specualtion and its not my personal feelings its fact.
3. Jackson has been bashing Martz. This is not Speculation and its not my personal feelings its fact.
4. Everyone is interested in our Ram defense being led by anyone not named Marmie. This could be considered Specualtion seeing how I said everyone. But I challenge you to find someone (Ram Player or Ram Fan) that says they really wish Marmie was still here.
5. We also made a strong attempt to add leadership on defense and address the TE position, which has been a weak link for a long time. This is not Speculation and its not my personal feelings its fact. We did make a strong attempt at upgrading.


Bruce getting released and then resigned was a good sign that Bruce wants to be here. This is not Speculation I cant imagine him resigning if he did not want to be here especially when he could have made more elsewhere.

IMO I think the players are happy to be rid of Martz. This maybe considered Speculation but to me it is just my opinion. You try to call everything I say specualtion even when I start with IMO.

None of that was intended to point to Linehan over Martz. I was just stating the reaction of the players. A lot of people thought last year that the players would be unhappy if Martz left. It don't seem that way to me. Its not speculation that Jackson was unhappy with Martz or Kennedy was unhappy with Kollar. It was not speculation that Linehan said he would provide more protection and allow Bulger to audible.

It was based on people’s preference about which they would rather have even if Martz did not have FO problems

As I said before, if Martz and Zygmunt were getting along, this wouldn't even be a question. There would be no Linehan.

YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT SPECULATION THATS TRUE SPECULATION. The Atlanta playoff game was horrible and we have started tanking as a team. That is not meant to bash Martz its just meant to say the last two years were definitely not Martz best and all coaches get looked at when there team is performing poorly. IMO it was still time for a change even if he would have got along with the FO.

IMO I think the players are happy to be rid of Martz.

That is my opinion when the coaching staff says the are going to be more committed to protecting Bulger and let him audible. Also Kennedy and Jackson are both bad mouthing the previous coaching staff. This is Not Bashing Martz at all I am not diminishing any of his abilities. I am only saying the reaction I see from the players.

Martz took over a Super Bowl team that had more talent assembled on the offensive side then ever before seen. Martz regime his last two years had a losing record and could not get the offense to perform like it used to over the last two years. Linehans regime now takes over a 6-10 team that has been declining offensively the last three years. Martz took over this team at its best and never won a SuperBowl as a head coach yet some would think he was the next Lombardi. I am not comparing Linehan to Martz at this point. Linehan was not even dealt as good of a hand as what Martz was with Bruce, Holt, Hakim, Proehl, and Faulk in their prime and a better defense. Linehan is not inheriting a SuperBowl winner we did not even make the playoff and the year before we were just 8-8 during the regular season and got embarrassed in the playoffs by Atlanta. My point is even had Martz got along with the front office I would feel more comfortable with Linehan and his coaches entering the season then I would with Martz and his.

This was Not Bashing Martz it was just saying there is No Way to Compare what Martz took over and what Linehan is taking over. Martz had a far better team in his first year as head coach. It was not bashing Martz the only reason I mention Martz team doing bad the last two years is to show that Linehan does not have the talent that Martz started with in his first year.

Of course, fell free to ignore the fact that Martz built the team you say he inherited.

That my friend is speculation.

Look over the fact that Zygmunt blocked the re-signing of Conwell and Wistrom.

That my friend is speculation.
(Martz had no input according to you or your media source)

Forget about, the often lauded Lovie Smith who wanted Duncan over Fletcher.

That my friend is speculation.
(Martz had no input according to you or your media source)

I feel more comfortable with Linehan then I do Martz after seeing how this team has been falling apart under his control recently.

if I had to make the decision between Linehan and his staff or Martz and his going into this season it would be Linehan for me. Regardless of Martz having FO problems or not.

These quotes were in response to me knowing who I would want to coach this coming season. They were NOT BASHING MARTZ.

IMO I don't think there would be any chance of Martz hiring Haslett had he stayed. He has to big of an ego to have another strong willed person around like Haslett. I also don't think we would have got Gus because it was Linehan who persuaded him. IMO Haslett helped persuade the defensive signings of Glover and Fahkir who both played for him. I think Spoon and Chavous were also persuaded by playing for Haslett. This is just my opinion I cannot prove or disprove it. But this is another part of why I am happy that we went in a different direction even if the FO would have got along with Martz.

This was NOT BASHING MARTZ it was in response to you saying Martz could have hired Haslett. I think him and Haslett both are to strong willed to co-exist. It was not bashing Martz it was stating my opinion about their personalities.
Quote:

Look, STL, it's like this; you're a one-trick pony. You hate Martz, and you want everyone else to hate Martz.

That my friend is speculation.

Don't be ashamed of it. Embrace it. Look at Rebel13. He embraces the fact that all he posts about is how bad he hates Martz. It's okay, dude, don't be ashamed of it. People may not agree with it, but it's your god given right to hate whoever you want, Martz or otherwise.

That my friend is speculation. I don't hate Martz.

But for those of us who have moved on, we find these "I hate Martz" sort of threads a little, shall I say, obsessive. You can re-write the question any way you want, but it boils down to you hating Martz. Why? He's in Detroit. Let it go.

That my friend is speculation.This thread was not about hating Martz.

I do not hate Martz and never will I was supporting him going into the season last year. But when I saw the same sloppy play by our team from the beginning game until the end then I thought it was time to go in a different direction. This is not bashing Martz its just our team has played very sloppy the last two years. You could have had 200 yards rushing in the Atlanta playoff game.

Let me repeat what this whole thread was about:
It was about making a decision on which coach people would rather start this season with. It was NOT about whom do you think the better coach IS or WILL BE.

[STLRAMSFAN]

Maybe, but it's a lot closer to being the truth, than talking about Linehan and Martz.

The only question about Linehan and Martz in this thread is who you would rather have as head coach. I CONTINUE TO SAY ITS NOT ABOUT WHO IS OR WILL BE BETTER. There is no specualtion in chosing who you would rather have.

[ramsbruce]

The only question about Linehan and Martz in this thread is who you would rather have as head coach. I CONTINUE TO SAY ITS NOT ABOUT WHO IS OR WILL BE BETTER. There is no specualtion in chosing who you would rather have.

Well then it's a good thing I wasn't directing my last post to you isn't it. :tongue:

[rebel13]

Look at Rebel13. He embraces the fact that all he posts about is how bad he hates Martz.

[/QUOTE]
I continue to be amazed at all the pain being felt by the folks who loved and defended the idiot Lion coach. I think it must be painful to admit how horribly wrong you were by supporting the savant. Does it pain you also that I was so right? HAHAHA....and by the way, I have many posts that have nothing to do with him.:tongue:

[Ahbatu Ujeema]

The offensive line is far happier with the new Oline coach too. Much better treatment and more knowledgeable then the last one. This is a good thing, when the Oline has confidence in the coach it builds confidence in each other. One feeds off the other.

I still say by by midseason we have one of the best Olines in the NFL

[r8rh8rmike]

Maybe the title of this poll should have been "Was a coaching change necessary?". "Linehan vs Martz Regime", intended or not gives the perception of a "who's better" comparison, and the statement "If Martz could have gotten along with the FO" bases the entire thread on speculation and invites more of the same. Just a thought.

[txramsfan]

If mickey mouse coaches this team to 4 playoff appearances out of 6 years I'll be happy. I don't give a mouse behind who the coach is....

JUST WIN.