Marc Bulger

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Originally Posted by moklerman

Nothing in football is ever "all" someone's fault. I think it's very realistic to be critical of Bulger's performance that day though. It doesn't mean I think he's a bad person but what reality are you living in where 0 TD's and 3 INT's by the QB should be excused or commended in a close game, home playoff loss? These weren't tipped balls at the LOS or volleyball action by the receivers.

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Problem is your basing his entire career on this one game and that is absolutley rediculous. Go look at the one int He threw to I think it was Manning was a horribly ran route by Holt and Manning basically took the ball from Holt he seemed to want it more than Holt did Manhandled Holt in my opinon. I didnt excuse or commend his play but I'm not basing his career off that game either. I guess qb's and good qb's cant have bad games i.e Brett Favre in the dome throwing 7 int's.

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Originally Posted by moklerman

I thought he had 5 full starts in 2002 as well as a MNF game that year? Starting experience, prime time experience, three years of training camps in the Martz system...but let's just act like he was a rookie..

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You cant expect a guy to come in and be great. No qb in the NFL history aside from Brady, and Warner came into his first full year of starting and was great. Trainingg camp and pre-season means jack when you think about it. Ryan Leaf was a great pre-season qb but it didnt translate into real football. He basically was a rookie, so your telling me if a guy sits the bench for a few years he is game ready and should be great right then and there. I completely dis-agree and thats why so many team throw qb's into the fire and let them fight through it i.e Aikman and Manning. What good is sitting on the bench your just watching the other guy play your not actually doing anything. But youre right(sarcasm) after starting 16 games a qb should be mistake free and play lights out in the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by moklerman

Again, where are these absolutes coming from? It has been presented many times that Bulger is very efficient in the red zone. Unfortunately, overall production in general is not there. In the Caronlina game in particular the production isn't there. One TD in...5(?) red zone trips that day is not a good number for the offense and Bulger was the QB of that offense. That's just the way it is..

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Where are your absolutes coming from? Youre basing a guys career off of one game. Good thing coaches and front offices dont do that then Peyton Manning and Troy Aikman never would have made it passed 1 year. 1 td in five red zone trips is halarious to me you bringing that up like it's all on him. Go look at the play by play. One of the redzone trips was a run,then another run by Faulk and then a qb scramble and a 1 yard gain, yep all on Bulger there. Another one was a pass from Bulger to Bruce for 3 yds then a pass to Faulk for 1 yard and then a qb draw up the middle. I may have the first and second mixed up with which one was the draw but either way not really on Bulger. Then the last one where Martz lost his nerve and sat on it cannot be blamed on Bulger at all. Did Bulger not get this team into those positions despite the terrible day he was having? So if Martz lost his nerve because of Bulger having a bad day, that is on Martz for being scared you always go for the win.

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Originally Posted by moklerman

I won't act like I haven't ever defended Warner when he made a mistake. I'm sure that I have. But, I think it's been established that Warner's skills didn't diminish. He has a physical limitation that was long misdiagnosed. Martz, Coughlin and Green(as well as their assistants) were all unable to either identify or address Warner's thumb problem in the right way. I give Whisenhunt a lot of credit for working with Warner and trying something different with the gloves. It seems simple or obvious now but I think things would have gone a lot differently if he'd adopted them after he started breaking things in 2000. He won an MVP without them in 2001 but I think with them, he would have been even better(physically).

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You think if the Rams would have slapped some gloves on him he would have been fine LOL take off the rose colored glasses bro. He had how many year to heal before he had a good year in Arizona? Don't forget Warner was hiding the seriousness of his injury from the staff as well. Is that a little selfish???

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Originally Posted by moklerman

Again, where is this coming from? I don't think it was all Bulger's fault but he did have a bad game and the Rams had a real chance to win the game. There were many things that would have changed the outcome. If Holt makes the catch, if Sehorn makes the tackle, etc. Poor QB play is a huge factor in an overtime game though and Bulger was guilty of it on that day..

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Bad defense is huge in a playoff game and our defense was guilty of it that day. A head coach losing his nerve with 2 minutes to go and a chance to win is a major factor in a playoff game and Martz was guily of it on that day. We know Bulger had a bad game but every qb has a bad day. Didn't Peyton Manning and the Colts lose to a Charger team without L.T. at home none the less yeah thats a bad day. I'm not basing Bulgers career off of one game.

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Originally Posted by moklerman

I would rate Van Brocklin, Gabriel, Jaworski, Ferragamo, Everett, Green and Warner ahead of him but he's top 10 at least. And you're right, my faith in Bulger is minimal. Hope for team success has little to do with faith in a particular player though..

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Everett,Ferragamo,Jaworski and Green above Bulger now your just hating on him because he replaced Warner. Green played 8 whopping games for the Rams and you rate him higher than Bulger LOL. Happy feet Everett was a good qb but Bulger is better. I've never seen Bulger take a phantom sack and he gets punished way more than Everett ever did. Jaworski started a whopping 3 games for the Rams thats a bit of a stretch dont you think. Ferragamo had one good year for the Rams and if your basing Bulger off the Panther game than Vince should be based off the Superbowl where he cheesed up and missed a wide open Billy Waddy for a sure td and threw a pic instead. Hey why no throw Deiter Brock in there too he played one season. T.J. Rubley was definately better than Bulger so you gotta throw him in the mix too, give me a break.

Bulger had one really good team in his career so far ONE. That was his first year as a starter. He had a couple of average ones too. I love it that he's not good enough for you but Aikman thinks he's one of the most accurate qb's playing today. Players and coaches around the NFL respect the guy and about 22 teams would rather have him then what they have. Bulger hasnt reached great status your right about that. Like I've said before it doesnt take a great qb to win a superbowl right Dilfer. Ask Marino he knows all about being great and not winning a ring. TEAM SPORT TEAM SPORT!

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Originally Posted by rammiser

Hey why no throw Deiter Brock in there too he played one season. T.J. Rubley was definately better than Bulger so you gotta throw him in the mix too, give me a break.

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What about Tony Banks :D ;)

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Problem is your basing his entire career on this one game and that is absolutley rediculous.

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It's ridiculous that you think I'm basing his whole career on that one game. That game illustrates what I think his overall shortcomings are but I don't think that his whole career stems from it.

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I guess qb's and good qb's cant have bad games i.e Brett Favre in the dome throwing 7 int's.

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Yes, they can. But show me a point in the last 4 years where Bulger was more than "good between the 20's". That's my whole point, he puts up good yardage, good completion % and not a lot of production for how much he throws the ball.

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You cant expect a guy to come in and be great. No qb in the NFL history aside from Brady, and Warner came into his first full year of starting and was great. Trainingg camp and pre-season means jack when you think about it.

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Big Ben should be there too and I totally disagree that training camp means squat. Especially in a Martz system. How many QB's have missed camp and come in and been successful? Bulger was far from inexperienced by the time the 2003 playoffs rolled around. He may not have been a seasoned vet but "it was just his first full year" doesn't hold water as far as I'm concerned. He was well into his 2nd year of starting and 3rd year in the league.

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But youre right(sarcasm) after starting 16 games a qb should be mistake free and play lights out in the playoffs.

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He was more experience than that I never said he should have played lights out. I think better than 0 TD 3 INT and stalling in the red zone isn't too much to ask for a guy that'd played as much as he had is very reasonable.

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Where are your absolutes coming from? Youre basing a guys career off of one game.

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How much do I have to talk about his career numbers before you quit typing that?

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Good thing coaches and front offices dont do that then Peyton Manning and Troy Aikman never would have made it passed 1 year. 1 td in five red zone trips is halarious to me you bringing that up like it's all on him. Go look at the play by play.

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It's been 5 years and Bulger hasn't near the success or durability that either of those guys had. You see, I'm actually am looking a little deeper and that's why I'm discouraged by Bulger's numbers. They are misleading. "Look at what he did in '06". Well, I did and the same problems are there. It doesn't seem to matter which system or supporting cast that he has, his numbers stay about the same. The volume may go up since he throws it more than just about any QB in the league but the substance stays very middle of the road. Not worth the price tag, devotion or expectations especially when the lack of durability is considered.

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Then the last one where Martz lost his nerve...

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No one will ever know what he was really thinking at that time but I think it's more of an indictment against Bulger considering Martz has never done something like that before or since. I can't help but think that he took the ball out of his hands because he had thrown to 2nd half picks up to that point.

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Everett,Ferragamo,Jaworski and Green above Bulger now your just hating on him because he replaced Warner. Green played 8 whopping games for the Rams and you rate him higher than Bulger LOL.

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Sorry, there was no qualifier for the list. Jaworksi and Green were based on them narrowly missing Rams careers but being good pro's but I'll concede them as alltime Rams greats. Everett and Ferragamo I would certainly take over Bulger. Everett may be known for the phantom sack but I've seen Bulger pirouette away from perceived contact on more than one occasion too. Everett led the league in TD's twice and put up 26 for a horrible Saints team(compared to Bulger's career year of 24)and is still the alltime yardage leader for the Rams. Ferragamo's career was a little more checkered because of madame Ram but he still took the Rams to 7 playoff games. Please let me know when Bulger puts up 3 TD's and 0 INT vs. a team like Dallas and has the Rams in the Super Bowl.

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You think if the Rams would have slapped some gloves on him he would have been fine

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Yes I do. I think he would have been fine in New York as well. His fumbling in '06 was as pronounced as it was in '03 and his QB rating since donning the gloves is 90+.

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Don't forget Warner was hiding the seriousness of his injury from the staff as well. Is that a little selfish???

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I agree that it was a mistake but I also think Warner deserves the benefit of the doubt. This is the same guy who came to camp in 2000 without a contract after winning the league and Super Bowl MVP. He has always exhibited class and I don't necessarily hold it against a player that wants to be on the field. The good one's always want to be on the field. If he was truly incapacitated, I place at least equal blame on the coaching/medical staff for not being able to identify it or shut him down. You can't leave it up to the player because they will always want to be on the field. Bulger is a perfect example. You laud his decision to play with broken ribs but did he really help the team? Was it really a good decision to play during a lost season when he could be healing and coming back in '08? Gutsy but wasn't his motivation selfish as well?

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He had a couple of average ones too. I love it that he's not good enough for you but Aikman thinks he's one of the most accurate qb's playing today.

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Well, I don't let Aikman do any of my thinking for me so that may not be applicable.

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Bulger hasnt reached great status your right about that. Like I've said before it doesnt take a great qb to win a superbowl right Dilfer.

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that's the wonderful thing about football. Everything affects everything. You're right that an average QB can get to the Super Bowl but until Bulger is being paid like Dilfer, then I think it's unfair to expect the same production out of them or their respective defenses. Bulger is paid as a top QB and because that money is tied up, the Rams aren't going to be able to stack the defense like Baltimore did. QB is a prominent position for the Rams and much of their success is based on how much production comes from that position. They are a passing team. Bulger has to elevate his game to help the team get to the next level. 06 was good enough but I would like better than good enough. 24 TD's in nearly 600 attempts is just caretaker football. I don't think the Rams are built to win that way. If they had a top defense or were solid across the board it would be fine. Brady's been getting by on those types of numbers for most of his career. The Rams aren't that good and they need more TD's out of their QB.

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Bulger vs. Pennington or Griese? Who has more Pro Bowl appearances?

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Leading the league in interceptions and going to the Pro Bowl as a 2nd alternate really means that much to you?

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Who rates in more all-time top 10 NFL passing categories?

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Well, Pennington is rated higher and is the most accurate passer of all time. Bulger, among other things, is #2 all time in attempts per game. Which carries more weight?

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So 3 bad quarters on defense, 2 good quarters. We lose.

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0 points in the first quarter and 0 points in the 5th quarter were both good and the 3rd and 4th quarter of 6 & 7 points was acceptable as well. Even 10 points in the 2nd wasn't devastating. The yardage was high but 23 points allowed should have been enough for the Rams to win in regulation.

moklerman, moklerman, moklerman........Way to stick to your guns!! I echo your position on Bulger! It's the truth. Why is it so hard for a lot of knowledgeable Rams fans to criticize Bulger. I know that in an earlier post i said that i would refrain. But, until proven otherwise, Bulger is not a "money" man when it counts! He's missing the elusive "IT" factor. That's right rammiser et al...that intangible element that separates the "gamer" from the average player.
I don't question Bulgers heart or his fundamental ability. I do question his leadership as a field general in "crunch time". I don't think that he copes well with pressure in critical situations. And i'm not talking about defensive pressure. I'm talking about mental pressure. He's been a poor decision maker in adverse situations. He doesn't know when to tuck and he doesn't know when to throw it away.
Look, i hope Bulger proves me wrong this year. I'm just not going to be convinced until he does.


RAM ON!

I was just thinking that everyone should be happy that I'm taking such a hard stance on Bulger. Whenever I'm "sure" of something and know that I'm right, the universe likes to remind me who's really in charge and show that I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by moklerman

But show me a point in the last 4 years where Bulger was more than "good between the 20's".

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How about his 2006 Pro Bowl year in the red zone:

47 of 79, 59.5 Comp Pct, 21 TD's, 0 INT's, 108.1 RATING

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Originally Posted by moklerman

Leading the league in interceptions and going to the Pro Bowl as a 2nd alternate really means that much to you?

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Absolutely. Obviously everything else Bulger accomplised during the 2003 season was enough to get him an honor few ever get.

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Originally Posted by moklerman

Well, Pennington is rated higher and is the most accurate passer of all time. Bulger, among other things, is #2 all time in attempts per game. Which carries more weight?.

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I'm not sure all-time stats are where you want to argue against Bulger, because he overwelmingly dominates Pennington in virtually every career and per game category.

I don't dislike Bulger, but since most teams only get to the superbowl once every 10 or 20 years, and Kurt Warner and company took them to 2 in 3 years, there is no doubt in my mind that you can't just replace a SB winning QB who knows what it takes to win big games and replace him with a young guy who was playing better while your SB MVP was hurt.

The "intangible" that MB is missing is the ability to see the whole field and find the "best" open man. Bulger runs the plays as called, and really does not have the ability to improvise. This is why he will never find "greatness" as KW did.

Not to dwell on the past, but after watching that Carolina game, I recalled all too well the bitter-sweat victory against Atlanta on Monday night, when Warner had been injured in that 6 fumble game vs. Giants (Orlando Pace had held out and the O'line was terrible in the first few games), and I knew that if Martz didn't let Warner get back in that starting line-up on Monday night, our Dynasty was over because Bulger was not "the man".

We shut out the Falcons because we just had too much talent, and I knew that, although Bulger had been playing better, if Warner had a chance to start that game, he would have also dominated and regained his position as the leader and "Glue" of the GSOT.

Instead we are back to mediocrity for who knows how long.

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Originally Posted by YodaRam

I don't question Bulgers heart or his fundamental ability. I do question his leadership as a field general in "crunch time". I don't think that he copes well with pressure in critical situations. And i'm not talking about defensive pressure. I'm talking about mental pressure. He's been a poor decision maker in adverse situations. He doesn't know when to tuck and he doesn't know when to throw it away.

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This may be true to some extent, but Bulger has proven his mettle and the ability to handle pressure in numerous comeback wins, which have to be considered "crunch time".

In 2003 he had three 4th quarter comeback wins in a row, against the Ravens in week 10, the Bears in week 11 and the Cardinals in week 12. In 2004 he had five, against the Cardinals in week 1, the Seahawks in week 5, the Bucs in week 6, the Jets in week 17 and again in the playoffs against Seattle. In 2006 he had one against the whiners in week 12.

There's no doubt in my mind that Bulger has what it takes to lead a team through adversity.

I know this is the off-season and maybe that is the reason for sempiternal threads.

Warner is gone, Bulger is our QB.

We may love and adore him as the second coming or we might have a wait and see attitude. Our love four our TEAM supersedes (or at least should supersede) our fawning over any particular player but at the same time it is a realization that a TEAM needs players to step up and lead by example and at times attempt to force their will in game deciding situations.

Here's to players stepping up to grasp the mantle of greatness and willing our TEAM into a position where they can claim the ultimate prize!

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Originally Posted by ramsanddodgers

Here's to players stepping up to grasp the mantle of greatness and willing our TEAM into a position where they can claim the ultimate prize!

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Amen! There's lots of room on the roster for players who will step up.

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Originally Posted by moklerman

I don't know if I consider myself a Bulger basher

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Perhaps, but I'd say that the majority of posters here sees you that way.

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How about his 2006 Pro Bowl year in the red zone:

47 of 79, 59.5 Comp Pct, 21 TD's, 0 INT's, 108.1 RATING

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I think perhaps you've misunderstood. When I wrote "between the 20's" I assumed you'd been reading my previous posts. I know that Bulger is efficient in the red zone and haven't criticized him for that. "Between the 20's" was supposed to be a euphemism for a lot of passing yards but not a lot of TD's. But, since you bring up Bulger's red zone numbers in '06 I thought I'd try to further illustrate my comparison to Pennington.
2002:
42/66, 63.6 Comp Pct, 21 TD's, 0 INT's, 112.9 RATING
or how about
2000-2005
100/156 64.1% 45 TD's 0 INT's 110.3 RATING

How exactly is Bulger so clearly better than Pennington again? Most decent QB's in the league(about 65-70% of them) have a tremendous TD to INT ratio in the red zone. Red zone efficiency was not what I mean but I see how I worded it poorly and it could easily seem to be.

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Absolutely. Obviously everything else Bulger accomplised during the 2003 season was enough to get him an honor few ever get.

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Culpepper, Favre, Hasslebeck and McNabb were all voted in ahead of him and he really shouldn't have been there. He got a free ticket because the other guys didn't want to/couldn't play. He wasn't top 10 in passer rating or TD's but led the league in interceptions in only 15 games. He earned his pro bowl spot in '06 but not in '03.

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I'm not sure all-time stats are where you want to argue against Bulger, because he overwelmingly dominates Pennington in virtually every career and per game category.

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He doesn't in passer rating or accuracy. They're tied in TD% and YPA, Pennington's got a lower INT%. Bulger's thrown 14 more TD's but in 500 more attempts. I'm not seeing the overwhelming domination unless you're talking about attempts per game.

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(Orlando Pace had held out and the O'line was terrible in the first few games)

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I'm glad someone else remembers. I don't remember ever hearing about an o-line that hadn't played any of the preseason games together. Throw in a de-juiced and overrated Kyle Turley and that line was B.A.D. bad for quite a few games.

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In 2003 he had three 4th quarter comeback wins in a row, against the Ravens in week 10, the Bears in week 11 and the Cardinals in week 12.

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Boy, you certainly saw different games than I did. Each of those games were horrible offensive efforts, especially on Bulger's part. We are talking about the same game where Martz was going to bench him and Warner talked him out of it? Giving Bulger credit for that Baltimore game? Man, talk about a forgiving fan. Now that you bring it up, that was the era of "stat's don't matter, he just wins" wasn't it? 1 TD and 6 INT vs. Baltimore and Arizona but those are somehow "Bulger comebacks"? Talk about a misleading stat.

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Perhaps, but I'd say that the majority of posters here sees you that way.

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Good to see that my stalker still tries to speak for everyone here at the Clan. I think you'll find that I've only expressed an interest in not overstating Bulger's accomplishments and compared him statistically to other QB's to try and add a little perspective to those with Blue & Gold retinal implants(obviously way past the point of glasses that could actually be removed).

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The "intangible" that MB is missing is the ability to see the whole field and find the "best" open man.

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Good call, renrawtruk! That is definitely an intangible worth mentioning!



RAM ON!

It appears that moklerman, the head prosecutor in this case, has concluded his closing argument. We now await the the defendant's attorney's closing argument. There is some speculation that the decision not to put Bulger on the stand could be detrimental to the defenses case. .............News at 11!



RAM ON!

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Originally Posted by moklerman

It's ridiculous that you think I'm basing his whole career on that one game. That game illustrates what I think his overall shortcomings are but I don't think that his whole career stems from it.
Yes, they can. But show me a point in the last 4 years where Bulger was more than "good between the 20's". That's my whole point, he puts up good yardage, good completion % and not a lot of production for how much he throws the ball.
Big Ben should be there too and I totally disagree that training camp means squat. Especially in a Martz system. How many QB's have missed camp and come in and been successful? Bulger was far from inexperienced by the time the 2003 playoffs rolled around. He may not have been a seasoned vet but "it was just his first full year" doesn't hold water as far as I'm concerned. He was well into his 2nd year of starting and 3rd year in the league.
He was more experience than that I never said he should have played lights out. I think better than 0 TD 3 INT and stalling in the red zone isn't too much to ask for a guy that'd played as much as he had is very reasonable.
How much do I have to talk about his career numbers before you quit typing that?
It's been 5 years and Bulger hasn't near the success or durability that either of those guys had. You see, I'm actually am looking a little deeper and that's why I'm discouraged by Bulger's numbers. They are misleading. "Look at what he did in '06". Well, I did and the same problems are there. It doesn't seem to matter which system or supporting cast that he has, his numbers stay about the same. The volume may go up since he throws it more than just about any QB in the league but the substance stays very middle of the road. Not worth the price tag, devotion or expectations especially when the lack of durability is considered.
No one will ever know what he was really thinking at that time but I think it's more of an indictment against Bulger considering Martz has never done something like that before or since. I can't help but think that he took the ball out of his hands because he had thrown to 2nd half picks up to that point.
Sorry, there was no qualifier for the list. Jaworksi and Green were based on them narrowly missing Rams careers but being good pro's but I'll concede them as alltime Rams greats. Everett and Ferragamo I would certainly take over Bulger. Everett may be known for the phantom sack but I've seen Bulger pirouette away from perceived contact on more than one occasion too. Everett led the league in TD's twice and put up 26 for a horrible Saints team(compared to Bulger's career year of 24)and is still the alltime yardage leader for the Rams. Ferragamo's career was a little more checkered because of madame Ram but he still took the Rams to 7 playoff games. Please let me know when Bulger puts up 3 TD's and 0 INT vs. a team like Dallas and has the Rams in the Super Bowl.
Yes I do. I think he would have been fine in New York as well. His fumbling in '06 was as pronounced as it was in '03 and his QB rating since donning the gloves is 90+.
I agree that it was a mistake but I also think Warner deserves the benefit of the doubt. This is the same guy who came to camp in 2000 without a contract after winning the league and Super Bowl MVP. He has always exhibited class and I don't necessarily hold it against a player that wants to be on the field. The good one's always want to be on the field. If he was truly incapacitated, I place at least equal blame on the coaching/medical staff for not being able to identify it or shut him down. You can't leave it up to the player because they will always want to be on the field. Bulger is a perfect example. You laud his decision to play with broken ribs but did he really help the team? Was it really a good decision to play during a lost season when he could be healing and coming back in '08? Gutsy but wasn't his motivation selfish as well?
Well, I don't let Aikman do any of my thinking for me so that may not be applicable.
that's the wonderful thing about football. Everything affects everything. You're right that an average QB can get to the Super Bowl but until Bulger is being paid like Dilfer, then I think it's unfair to expect the same production out of them or their respective defenses. Bulger is paid as a top QB and because that money is tied up, the Rams aren't going to be able to stack the defense like Baltimore did. QB is a prominent position for the Rams and much of their success is based on how much production comes from that position. They are a passing team. Bulger has to elevate his game to help the team get to the next level. 06 was good enough but I would like better than good enough. 24 TD's in nearly 600 attempts is just caretaker football. I don't think the Rams are built to win that way. If they had a top defense or were solid across the board it would be fine. Brady's been getting by on those types of numbers for most of his career. The Rams aren't that good and they need more TD's out of their QB.
Leading the league in interceptions and going to the Pro Bowl as a 2nd alternate really means that much to you?

Well, Pennington is rated higher and is the most accurate passer of all time. Bulger, among other things, is #2 all time in attempts per game. Which carries more weight?
0 points in the first quarter and 0 points in the 5th quarter were both good and the 3rd and 4th quarter of 6 & 7 points was acceptable as well. Even 10 points in the 2nd wasn't devastating. The yardage was high but 23 points allowed should have been enough for the Rams to win in regulation.

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How about Pro Bowl MVP!!! in 03... Marc Bulger outplayed Peyton manning, Tom Brady, and all those other.. TOP QB's.. and Led the NFC to A second half comeback to win the Game for the NFC.. Does that mean anything to you???? 2nd alternate?? yeah he made them big time qb's look like a fool.