Marc Bulger

[Josh]

Molkerman.. I agree that Marc bulger doesnt have the leadership skills, but the year 2003 when we played the Panthers it wasnt all marc's fault. jason seahorn missed a tackle, (2) Jeff wilkins came up short on a 52 yard field goal, that he later said he didnt drive the ball, as he got underneath it. yes marc threw 3 Interceptions, but 03 was marc bulger first season as a starter, untill peyton manning won the SB 2 years ago he sucked in the playoffs too. If you don't have faith in marc, then you don't have faith in the rams. because if you expect marc to be below average then you must not think the rams as a team have a chance to win. you need to do a little research on marc before you say such things about him. in 2003 marc was 3rd in the NFL with 4 come from behind wins, in 2005 before he got hurt, he was on pass to shatter peyton mannings TD record, and was on pace to throw for over 5,000 yards, something that only Dan Marino has accomplished. and oh yeah.. it's marc bulgers fault that our defense gave up over 300 rushing yards to the falcons in the 04 playoffs. Marc Bulger is nowhere near a Chad Pennington or a Brian Griese. it sounds like you are a man who doesnt believe in somebody who will probably go down as One of the rams greatest quarterbacks of all time. in 06 marc had 4,000+ yards and 24 TD's with only 8 interceptions. wy dont you just sit back and let marc show what he can do in an offense that doesnt have injuries in the most crucial position in the NFL.. The O-Line.

[rammiser]

That's exactly what I thought of Bulger's day. But seriously, the defense held the Panthers to 23 points through 5 quarters of playoff football. Jeff Wilkins had 4 field goals and recovered a miracle onside kick just to give Bulger and the offense one more chance. If you honestly think Bulger was peachy during that game then you have absolutely no expectations at all. 0 Td's, 3 Int's and continual sputtering in the red zone. Very Rex Grossman-esque of Bulger that day.

I didnt think his day was peachy either but I also live in reality where i realize it wasnt all Bulgers fault we lost that game. The defense surrendered 485 yds of offense. That was Bulgers first year as a starting qb. Wow such pressure to put on a 1st time starting qb that he should be great immediately. I think that still has to do with not letting Kurt go, I understand. So sputtering inside the redzone solely lies on Bulger's shoulders. Wow once again thats an aweful lot to lay on one guy. Hard to believe no other factors come into play for Bulger when things go wrong, but I bet you have tons of excuses for Warners when his skills diminished and Bulger had to take over.

[r8rh8rmike]

I was never much of an Elway fan and I still feel he was pretty overrated. Only when he lost something off of his fastball did he become a good QB(IMO). That being said, I think Bulger has had a lot of tools...stars on offense to help him that Elway only had late in his career so that kind of comparison would be pretty tough.

Well, the point of the comparison was that using your criteria, you would have written off a Hall-Of-Famer, a 2-time Super Bowl Champion, a 9-time Pro Bowler and the greatest comeback tactician in NFL history as nothing special. It's easy to see why you don't think much of Bulger with such lofty standards.

The win vs. Seattle was certainly a feather in Bulger's cap but 17 points against Atlanta wasn't anything more than a push in terms of Bulger. He didn't perform poorly like the Carolina game but neither did he dispel my main criticism about him. Lots of yards, not a lot of points.

Post-season games often don't produce a lot of points, so I'm not sure that benchmark is valid. Bulger had solid numbers in those games and threw for 2 TD's in both. By comparison, our guy Kurt Warner with the full force of the far superior GSOT teams only threw for more than 2 TD's twice in 7 post-season games.

[moklerman]

Well, the point of the comparison was that using your criteria, you would have written off a Hall-Of-Famer, a 2-time Super Bowl Champion, a 9-time Pro Bowler and the greatest comeback tactician in NFL history as nothing special.

Overrated and "nothing special" aren't the same thing. Now, comparing Bulger to Elway seems pretty off base as well. Elway accomplished quite a bit when he didn't have much help on offense. Bulger continually gets injured and has guys like Marshall Faulk, Tory Holt, Isaac Bruce(All HOF's) and Steven Jackson to supplement his efforts.

By comparison, our guy Kurt Warner with the full force of the far superior GSOT teams only threw for more than 2 TD's twice in 7 post-season games

. Warner's post season success and opposition aren't really comparable to anything Bulger's done or faced. But I do agree that playoff football is a different animal and that normal standards can't be applied when looking at the numbers. However, Carolina and Atlanta weren't particularly special in terms of defense and the Panthers game specifically I have a fresh recollection of how Bulger played. He was at home, had all of his weapons on offense and played poorly enough that Martz...Mike freakin' Martz decided to play it safe. I don't blame Bulger for the Rams losing but I do think he played poorly.

I didnt think his day was peachy either but I also live in reality where i realize it wasnt all Bulgers fault we lost that game.

Nothing in football is ever "all" someone's fault. I think it's very realistic to be critical of Bulger's performance that day though. It doesn't mean I think he's a bad person but what reality are you living in where 0 TD's and 3 INT's by the QB should be excused or commended in a close game, home playoff loss? These weren't tipped balls at the LOS or volleyball action by the receivers.

That was Bulgers first year as a starting qb.

I thought he had 5 full starts in 2002 as well as a MNF game that year? Starting experience, prime time experience, three years of training camps in the Martz system...but let's just act like he was a rookie.

So sputtering inside the redzone solely lies on Bulger's shoulders. Wow once again thats an aweful lot to lay on one guy.

Again, where are these absolutes coming from? It has been presented many times that Bulger is very efficient in the red zone. Unfortunately, overall production in general is not there. In the Caronlina game in particular the production isn't there. One TD in...5(?) red zone trips that day is not a good number for the offense and Bulger was the QB of that offense. That's just the way it is.

Hard to believe no other factors come into play for Bulger when things go wrong, but I bet you have tons of excuses for Warners when his skills diminished and Bulger had to take over.

I won't act like I haven't ever defended Warner when he made a mistake. I'm sure that I have. But, I think it's been established that Warner's skills didn't diminish. He has a physical limitation that was long misdiagnosed. Martz, Coughlin and Green(as well as their assistants) were all unable to either identify or address Warner's thumb problem in the right way. I give Whisenhunt a lot of credit for working with Warner and trying something different with the gloves. It seems simple or obvious now but I think things would have gone a lot differently if he'd adopted them after he started breaking things in 2000. He won an MVP without them in 2001 but I think with them, he would have been even better(physically).

Molkerman.. I agree that Marc bulger doesnt have the leadership skills, but the year 2003 when we played the Panthers it wasnt all marc's fault.

Again, where is this coming from? I don't think it was all Bulger's fault but he did have a bad game and the Rams had a real chance to win the game. There were many things that would have changed the outcome. If Holt makes the catch, if Sehorn makes the tackle, etc. Poor QB play is a huge factor in an overtime game though and Bulger was guilty of it on that day.

Jeff wilkins came up short on a 52 yard field goal

C'mon, now. We'll let Bulger off the hook but lay it(even if only partially) on Wilkins for coming up a tad short on a 52 yarder? This wasn't a Vanderjagt wide right 40 yarder, Wilkins was right down the middle all day and recovered his own onside kick. Not hitting a 52 yarder is real low on any criticism I have of that game.

yes marc threw 3 Interceptions, but 03 was marc bulger first season as a starter,

Is this semantics or something? Bulger was far from a rookie, had 5 full starts in '02 and had been far more successful at times that, to me, make his performance even more disappointing. If we're talking Tavarious Jackson, then yeah, I'd agree that he was a first year starter that you couldn't expect much from. Bulger was well entrenched in Martz's system and had shown that he could be expected to run it more efficiently. That's where the problems start to arise for this zealot. Bulger had many horrible games in '03 but stuck with him. Warner was not given the same courtesy after more success and less struggles. Even now, I don't understand why any criticism of Bulger is met with such opposition. The guy is untouchable in St. Louis in terms of his job and needs no verbal defense. It doesn't matter to the brass what he does so defending his 0 TD 3 INT game seems very ludicrous to me.

untill peyton manning won the SB 2 years ago he sucked in the playoffs too.

I didn't actually say Bulger "sucked" in the playoffs did I? The John Elway/Peytom Manning comparisons to Bulger are way off base though. Anyone care to do their homework and look at Chad and Brian compared to Marc? Stat's, Pro Bowls, post season wins, etc. I'm not just pulling this stuff out of the ether.

in 2005 before he got hurt, he was on pass to shatter peyton mannings TD record, and was on pace to throw for over 5,000 yards

There's the rub, though. Doing it for an entire season is a big part of that conversation and one Bulger's big flaws is durability. Also, "woulda, coulda, shoulda's" are a tough argument to sell or get taken seriously. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. However, I would like to know how he was going to break the (previous) record of 49 TD in 16 games when he had 14 TD in 8 games? Bulger was certainly having a good year but let's not overstate what might have been. He was completing a very high percentage of his passes for a lot of yards but my criticism rears it's ugly head again. All of that success and his TD% was at 4.9. Not bad but not '04 Manning(9.9%). Heck, Manning hasn't been under 5% for most of his career and not in the past 5 years. Even in '07 where he didn't have Marvin Harrison most of the year and Tom Brady made all other QB's a non entity, he put up 6.0%. Let's not put Bulger and Manning in the same conversation just yet.

Marc Bulger is nowhere near a Chad Pennington or a Brian Griese.

I'll be waiting to be proven wrong.

it sounds like you are a man who doesnt believe in somebody who will probably go down as One of the rams greatest quarterbacks of all time

.I would rate Van Brocklin, Gabriel, Jaworski, Ferragamo, Everett, Green and Warner ahead of him but he's top 10 at least. And you're right, my faith in Bulger is minimal. Hope for team success has little to do with faith in a particular player though.

wy dont you just sit back and let marc show what he can do in an offense that doesnt have injuries in the most crucial position in the NFL.. The O-Line.

We're still talking about the Rams, right? Even the GSOT Rams had guys like Miller and St. Clair who were weak links. Bulger's most likely going to have to deal with o-line issues as long as he's a Ram. I hope Saunders can develop what he had in KC but that line was pretty special so it's a long shot at this point. But, Bulger will be much improved this year with a little health on the team. I'm actually anxious to see what the KC Rams can do. I always wanted Saunders and Vermeil to stay and for Martz to go when it all went down in 2000 so now I kind of get my wish.

Comparing Brock to Bulger is like comparing .....well.... Brock to Bulger! That's it! I'm upset now. I'm taking my ball and going home. Favre is a much better receiver and he never cries!

And that's exactly my point. One of the truly low water marks in Rams QB production was Dieter Brock and his "production" was what Bulger produces. That's why you have to stay away from totals and look at percentages. That's why NFL.com and all the other sites list those numbers. Bulger's 24 TD's in '06 look good as a total but when he throws 200 more passes(588 to Brock's 365) it's not that big of a disparity. If Brock had, based on averages, thrown 588 passes in '85, he would have had 26 TD(compared to Bulger's 24). That's my whole criticism of Bulger. When you really look at what he's done so far, it isn't that great. Not in today's NFL with the skill players he's had. Not bad, not a problem, but certainly room for improvement.

[moklerman]

Which one is Bulger, Griese and Pennington?

G 69 1259/1919 65.6% 13,738(7.2 ypa) TD 82(4.3%) INT 55(2.9%) Ra 88.9

G 72 1578/2484 63.5% 18,625(7.5 ypa) TD 106(4.3%) INT 74(3.0%) Ra 88.1

G 88 1642/2612 62.9% 18,367(7.0 ypa) TD 114(4.4%) INT 92(3.5%) Ra 83.6

[r8rh8rmike]

Overrated and "nothing special" aren't the same thing. Now, comparing Bulger to Elway seems pretty off base as well. Elway accomplished quite a bit when he didn't have much help on offense. Bulger continually gets injured and has guys like Marshall Faulk, Tory Holt, Isaac Bruce(All HOF's) and Steven Jackson to supplement his efforts.

The comparison was in terms of jumping to conclusions before a player gets a fair shot to prove himself, something I don't think Bulger has had a chance to do. As far as Bulger having guys like Faulk, Holt, Bruce and Jackson at his disposal, that's a bit misleading as all those guys have had or did have their share of injury problems along the way.

Warner's post season success and opposition aren't really comparable to anything Bulger's done or faced.

You're right, because Warner had the benefit of far superior support on both sides of the ball.

[r8rh8rmike]

Which one is Bulger, Griese and Pennington?

G 69 1259/1919 65.6% 13,738(7.2 ypa) TD 82(4.3%) INT 55(2.9%) Ra 88.9

G 72 1578/2484 63.5% 18,625(7.5 ypa) TD 106(4.3%) INT 74(3.0%) Ra 88.1

G 88 1642/2612 62.9% 18,367(7.0 ypa) TD 114(4.4%) INT 92(3.5%) Ra 83.6

The second line is Bulger. I wonder what it would look like if he didn't have to endure 18 OL combinations, Drew Bennett and broken ribs in 2007?

[moklerman]

The comparison was in terms of jumping to conclusions before a player gets a fair shot to prove himself,

For every John Elway, I can probably name 5 Jeff George's. How long is long enough? 5+ years seems at the very least a fair amount of time. Was Warner given the same amount of time to prove he could overcome his injuries/struggles? I think Bulger has established what he's capable of. And it's not all bad or anything like that. If he stays healthy and has all his weapons, he'll get you around 4,000 yards and 20 TD. Not a problem but not, IMO, the answer. I think the Rams are generally going to need a QB who can do a little more if they want to advance in the playoffs.

[moklerman]

The second line is Bulger. I wonder what it would look like if he didn't have to endure 18 OL combinations, Drew Bennett and broken ribs in 2007?

You're not implying that Griese and Pennington have been bathed in ideal situations? I think they've endured just as much as Bulger. Those numbers all look pretty similar to me. Are Griese and Pennington elite like some claim Bulger is or is Bulger maybe not as good when putting him in perspective? Bulger's best year isn't as good as either of their best years and Pennington's had better stats and more playoff wins as a starter.

[r8rh8rmike]

For every John Elway, I can probably name 5 Jeff George's. How long is long enough? 5+ years seems at the very least a fair amount of time. Was Warner given the same amount of time to prove he could overcome his injuries/struggles? I think Bulger has established what he's capable of. And it's not all bad or anything like that. If he stays healthy and has all his weapons, he'll get you around 4,000 yards and 20 TD. Not a problem but not, IMO, the answer. I think the Rams are generally going to need a QB who can do a little more if they want to advance in the playoffs.

Circumstances matter more than time IMO. Put Bulger in a reasonable situation and he's going to get the job done and will indeed be the answer. Speaking of answers, is Warner the answer in Arizona, even with the gloves? Whisenhunt apparently doesn't think so because it appears he's going back to Leinart in 2008.

You're not implying that Griese and Pennington have been bathed in ideal situations? I think they've endured just as much as Bulger. Those numbers all look pretty similar to me. Are Griese and Pennington elite like some claim Bulger is or is Bulger maybe not as good when putting him in perspective? Bulger's best year isn't as good as either of their best years and Pennington's had better stats and more playoff wins as a starter.

IMO, Bulger has faced many more obstacles than both Pennington and Griese, is a better QB, and will prove it if he doesn't have to deal with the things he did in 2007.

[moklerman]

Circumstances matter more than time IMO. Put Bulger in a reasonable situation and he's going to get the job done and will indeed be the answer. Speaking of answers, is Warner the answer in Arizona, even with the gloves? Whisenhunt apparently doesn't think so because it appears he's going back to Leinart in 2008.

This is starting to sound like it's the rest of the team and not Bulger. Why not apply all of your stipulations to Warner's situation and see if you feel as strongly about it. If Warner had a better line, better defense, better front office, etc. then he would perform better. Well, duh. Name one single QB in the league that that isn't the case. I'm not even talking about 2007 when I'm discussing Bulger. I mean, I'm discounting his horrible season which I think is pretty generous. I'm talking about when he's at his best. Which isn't as good as Pennington or Griese at their best. I don't see how Bulger can be regarded so highly when he hasn't even reached the levels of guys who most Rams fans just laugh at.

IMO, Bulger has faced many more obstacles than both Pennington and Griese, is a better QB, and will prove it if he doesn't have to deal with the things he did in 2007.

Blind faith is certainly a luxury to have. I really don't see all of these hardships that Bulger has had. Bad o-line play? Welcome to 90% of the NFL teams. Dome games vs. swirling winds at the meadowlands? Playing in a much tougher AFC East. Never anything comparable to Bruce/Holt/Faulk/Jackson in terms of skill positions. Bulger was handed the keys to the flippin' GSOT for buddha's sake! One playoff win in a pathetic division.

[MoonJoe]

"But seriously, the defense held the Panthers to 23 points through 5 quarters of playoff football."

Can you use "held the defense" and "23" points in the same sentence?

[moklerman]

Can you use "held the defense" and "23" points in the same sentence?

Well, 4 points per quarter isn't exactly getting steamrolled. They held the tie in overtime also. I don't think they were the '85 Bears but they certainly played well enough to win. I was just as disgusted with all of the yardage that they gave up but part of that was how many possessions Carolina's offense got and giving up yardage doesn't really mean a whole lot. Points is much more important. Yardage can lead to points for sure but not necessarily. Bend but don't break defense will make me pull my hair out but I will take that over the Atlanta playoff game for example.

[MoonJoe]

I understand the logic on that Mokle and that's why I usually "sarcastically" quote stats, because I don't believe they tell the whole story, but they do tell a portion of the story.

The Box Score was:
1 2 3 4 OT T
Panthers (11-5-0) 0 10 6 7 6 29
Rams (12-4-0) 3 6 3 11 0 23

So,

1st quarter good for our defense, bad for our offense.
2nd quarter bad for our defense, ok for our offense.
3rd quarter ok for our defense and bad for our offense.
4th quarter good for our offense ok for defense
5th quarter, bad for defense!

So 3 bad quarters on defense, 2 good quarters. We lose.


Or percentages

1st quarter we scored 100% more
2nd quarter they scored 60% more
3rd quarter they scored 50% more
4th quarter we scored 37% more
5th quarter, and this is the important one, they scored 100% more than we did.

Again they scored more in 3 out of 5 quarters, we lose.

So steamrolled no, beaten 3 out of 5 quarters yes.

What I look at for a score to be considered "held" by a defense is less than 14, with a wining score of over 28. Or over a ratio 2 to 1. Otherwise to me, this game was two evenly matched teams....

[r8rh8rmike]

This is starting to sound like it's the rest of the team and not Bulger. Why not apply all of your stipulations to Warner's situation and see if you feel as strongly about it. If Warner had a better line, better defense, better front office, etc. then he would perform better. Well, duh. Name one single QB in the league that that isn't the case. I'm not even talking about 2007 when I'm discussing Bulger. I mean, I'm discounting his horrible season which I think is pretty generous. I'm talking about when he's at his best. Which isn't as good as Pennington or Griese at their best. I don't see how Bulger can be regarded so highly when he hasn't even reached the levels of guys who most Rams fans just laugh at.

Bulger vs. Pennington or Griese? Who has more Pro Bowl appearances? Who rates in more all-time top 10 NFL passing categories? Who holds an all-time NFL passing record? Who's percevered through broken ribs knowing his OL isn't going to protect him? Not cracked ribs, BROKEN RIBS. Bulger is better and tougher than Pennington or Greise without question. As for Warner, IMO he's in the same position as Bulger, not getting a REASONABLE chance to succeed or help lead his team into the playoffs.

Blind faith is certainly a luxury to have. I really don't see all of these hardships that Bulger has had. Bad o-line play? Welcome to 90% of the NFL teams. Dome games vs. swirling winds at the meadowlands? Playing in a much tougher AFC East. Never anything comparable to Bruce/Holt/Faulk/Jackson in terms of skill positions. Bulger was handed the keys to the flippin' GSOT for buddha's sake! One playoff win in a pathetic division.

Hmmm. This is starting to sound like it's Bulger and not the rest of the team.