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Thread: Martz guys

  1. #61
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    Re: Martz guys

    So what? Bad teams draft at the top of EVERY round.


  2. #62
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Thumbs down Re: Martz guys

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    So what? Bad teams draft at the top of EVERY round.
    That means regardless where you pick you can still hit on a ProBowler the Rams hit on three outside the first round in 7 years. Don’t you think that should mean they could hit on one in the lower part of the first round? Just stating it’s not impossible.

    Since 2000 we have had a first rounder every year and we drafted three first rounders in 2001 and twice we drafted in the 12th overall spot.
    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -11-05-2005 at 02:06 AM.

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    Re: Martz guys

    Since 2000 we have had a first rounder every year and we drafted three first rounders in 2001 and twice we drafted in the 12th overall spot.
    2000: Canidate was a horrible pick that I attribute to Martz. You'll get no argument from me on that one.
    2001: D-Lew was overrated and I wanted Stroud in that spot, but regardless, all three of those 1st round picks have had injury problems early in their careers.
    2002: Robert Thomas was highly touted but never materialized. As a defensive player, how much input did Martz have? I'm speculating, but this looks like a Lovie more than a Martz.
    2003: Kennedy has had some injuries that have sidelined him as well
    2004: More speculation, but Jackson isn't far from his first pro bowl
    2005: Barron isn't too far behind Jackson in line for his ticket to the islands.

    There's lots of factors that go into the development of a player.....some can be forecast (Jackson & Barron), some can't (the injuries to Arch, Kennedy, & Pickett), and then some are just blown picks (Canidate, D-Lew, Thomas).

    I wish it were as easy as repeating whatever Kiper says to predict the ability of these players, but with so many factors involved, they might as well be drawing names out of a hat (okay, that's a bit of an exageration, but you get my point)
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  4. #64
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Martz guys

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    2002: Robert Thomas was highly touted but never materialized. As a defensive player, how much input did Martz have? I'm speculating, but this looks like a Lovie more than a Martz.
    MARTZ as HEAD COACH had the final input over Lovie.

    When Martz hired Lovie I am sure they discussed philosophy on type of players they wanted. Martz talked about wanting speed on defense that’s a part of the direction he set out looking for in his D coordinator when he hired him.

    Between Martz and Lovie Martz is the HEAD COACH. As HEAD COACH he was the boss of Lovie and therefore Martz had the final say not Lovie if Martz did not want him he could have said we need to look in a different direction.

    If MARTZ as HEAD COACH doesn’t have the final say with the personnel decisions between him and some one below him he should not be that persons boss (HEAD COACH).
    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -11-05-2005 at 09:50 AM.

  5. #65
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    Re: Martz guys

    *sigh* i miss lovie(sp) smith...*sigh*

    let me know if you want me to make you a sig.

  6. #66
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    Re: Martz guys

    I miss Lovie too.....
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  7. #67
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    Re: Martz guys

    MARTZ as HEAD COACH had the final input over Lovie.
    Did he?
    When Martz hired Lovie I am sure they discussed philosophy on type of players they wanted. Martz talked about wanting speed on defense that’s a part of the direction he set out looking for in his D coordinator when he hired him.
    Are you certain?
    As HEAD COACH he was the boss of Lovie and therefore Martz had the final say not Lovie if Martz did not want him he could have said we need to look in a different direction.
    Are you sure?
    If MARTZ as HEAD COACH doesn’t have the final say with the personnel decisions between him and some one below him he should not be that persons boss (HEAD COACH).
    Martz is the boss only if Shaw and Zygmunt say he's the boss. He has no power, except what they gave him. So again, I ask, are you sure about all these declarations?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  8. #68
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Martz guys

    Are you trying to say Martz did not hire Lovie or Marmie or any of his other coaches?

    If you are not saying that then are you saying he did not bother in the interview process in laying out what he wanted from that postion?

    If you are trying to tell me that the FO is running the D coordinator and not Martz then maybe they are doing the play calling on offense also. Maybe it’s Shaw who is the architect of the GSOT. Maybe he invented all these offensive plays and MM stole them. Its no less a conspiracy theory then the ones you keep coming up with.

    Man if they are calling all the shots then why do we need any coach. They won one Super Bowl and went to another. They must be a genius if they invented the offense and implemented it with Martz standing in the way.

    I think you are arguing just to be arguing on this one.
    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -11-05-2005 at 02:04 PM.

  9. #69
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    Re: Martz guys

    Quote Originally Posted by STLRAMSFAN
    Are you trying to say Martz did not hire Lovie or Marmie or any of his other coaches?

    If you are not saying that then are you saying he did not bother in the interview process in laying out what he wanted from that postion?

    If you are trying to tell me that the FO is running the D coordinator and not Martz then maybe they are doing the play calling on offense also. Maybe itís Shaw who is the architect of the GSOT. Maybe he invented all these offensive plays and MM stole them. Its no less a conspiracy theory then the ones you keep coming up with.

    Man if they are calling all the shots then why do we need any coach. They won one Super Bowl and went to another. They must be a genius if they invented the offense and implemented it with Martz standing in the way.

    I think you are arguing just to be arguing on this one.
    You refuse to read what I and others type. I take back my promise......I've given up on ya.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  10. #70
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Martz guys

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    Martz is the boss only if Shaw and Zygmunt say he's the boss. He has no power, except what they gave him. So again, I ask, are you sure about all these declarations?
    You are the one that said Robert Thomas looked like a Lovie pick and not a Martz. How can you even believe that if you say Martz has no power at all even over his D coordinator. What makes you think the FO gave Lovie the power.

  11. #71
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    Re: Martz guys

    Quote Originally Posted by STLRAMSFAN
    You are the one that said Robert Thomas looked like a Lovie pick and not a Martz. How can you even believe that if you say Martz has no power at all even over his D coordinator. What makes you think the FO gave Lovie the power.
    I don't know about Robert Thomas, but I'm pretty sure it's been documented that Martz was in favor of retaining London Fletcher, but Lovie felt Jamie Duncan could replace him for a lower cost, and ultimately it was Lovie's suggestion that was approved. We all know how that turned out.
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  12. #72
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Martz guys

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    I don't know about Robert Thomas, but I'm pretty sure it's been documented that Martz was in favor of retaining London Fletcher, but Lovie felt Jamie Duncan could replace him for a lower cost, and ultimately it was Lovie's suggestion that was approved.
    Approved by who first Martz or are you suggesting he was dealing direct with the FO. I dont see Lovie as the type to bypass Martz. If he did not bypass Martz then Martz would have been the one that approved it before it went to the FO.

  13. #73
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    Re: Martz guys

    Quote Originally Posted by STLRAMSFAN
    Approved by who first Martz or are you suggesting he was dealing direct with the FO. I dont see Lovie as the type to bypass Martz. If he did not bypass Martz then Martz would have been the one that approved it before it went to the FO.
    I don't know; I'm not a fly on the wall of the Rams front office to see who approves what on every decision made. I'm just relaying what I remember being reported. Maybe Martz wanted Fletcher but Lovie convinced him Duncan could fill in. That sounds more realistic to me.

    However, it's not my contention that every decision made under a head coach is that head coach's fault. If Lovie wanted Duncan and convinced Martz and the FO to go that way, then I fault Lovie for it. If you belong to the other school of thought though, more power to you. We'll just agree to disagree.
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  14. #74
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    Re: Martz guys

    I'm pretty sure it's been documented that Martz was in favor of retaining London Fletcher, but Lovie felt Jamie Duncan could replace him for a lower cost, and ultimately it was Lovie's suggestion that was approved.
    Boy, I'd like to see that document.

    Doubtful Martz would ever give up one of his offensive toys to keep a MLB.

    I believe Fletch was UFA. Rams could not afford him and still give Martz' offensive toys all of their money or so the story goes inside the FO's books.



  15. #75
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    Re: Martz guys

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter
    Boy, I'd like to see that document.
    Talk to Howard Balzer about it.

    First, his "follies" are talked about by fans and the media, but football people know that those things happen to all coaches. As for his "personnel duties," does anyone know what they are? This is overblown. Martz is not a scout. He relies on his personnel department to scout the players and rank them, and when the season is over, all the coaches then also go to workouts and evaluate players.

    When the coach has the power, all it means is that he makes the final decision, which is based on input from the scouts and other coaches. The bottom line is that all coaches and teams make personnel misjudgments. I realize here, there are those that want to blame everything on Martz, but virtually all of the time, his choices are done based on someone else's recommendation.

    It was Lovie Smith that didn't want London Fletcher, and pushed for Jamie Duncan. It was Lovie that wanted to bring back Rich Coady, leading to the release of Nick Sorensen. I'm not banging on Lovie, becasue he made a lot of great suggestions. I just bring it up to give a big-picture view of how choices are made.
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