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Thread: Martz guys

  1. #76
    FantasyFutballGuru13 Guest

    Re: Martz guys

    for anybody that is "hating" on lovie is terribly mistaken, you cant even begin to think that marmie is better than lovie, dont think anyone said that, just thought id thrwo it out there, and i realize that Chicago had a good defense beforem but is it a coincidence they have the best defense in the league right now(if you disagree, id like to hear who you think is better), i guess im just angry cause' our defense sucks, but still...:smoke: ....im angry, we made some ok offseason accusations, getting claiborne and coakley, but why cant we get some guys other than archuletta that can play in the secondary, heck...MIKE FURREY, has done better in his couple of games then anyone else...*harumph*


  2. #77
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Martz guys

    When the coach has the power, all it means is that he makes the final decision, which is based on input from the scouts and other coaches. The bottom line is that all coaches and teams make personnel misjudgments. I realize here, there are those that want to blame everything on Martz, but virtually all of the time, his choices are done based on someone else's recommendation.
    Part One:
    I agree with what Howard said here. If Martz is the one making the final call and people provide him with input. Like he said MM is the HEAD COACH and is responsible for the final decision. He had the choice to say yes or no on the defensive side of the ball and he has to live with all the bad calls he made on the defensive side of the ball as far as personnel. I understand Nick you feel the person providing him with input is at fault assuming he talked the coach out of a position but that is were we can agree to disagree. If I owned a business and I took someoneís input and based my decision off that then its no ones fault but mine for following their information instead of going with what I felt was right. Thatís the way I look at it but again I agree to disagree on this subject.


    Part Two:
    I see no substance to what he said as far as who liked who. He provided no proof of anyone telling him this or any source. Without that information I would call that speculation.

  3. #78
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    Re: Martz guys

    Part Two:
    I see no substance to what he said as far as who liked who. He provided no proof of anyone telling him this or any source. Without that information I would call that speculation.
    Since Balzer actually spends time in Rams Park and talks to these people that we all guess about, I'd figure his say on anything regarding the Rams is pretty definitive.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  4. #79
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Martz guys

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    Since Balzer actually spends time in Rams Park and talks to these people that we all guess about, I'd figure his say on anything regarding the Rams is pretty definitive.
    Are you telling me a reporter that goes out to Rams park all the time then comes back and makes a statement like that when he names no way of knowing by source or other wise that we should believe him and his statements are definitive. I have respect for Howard but this sounds more like an opinion then fact until I hear how he comes about his information. The same was true with Bernie we needed more info prior to believing the Samir story. Which was pretty convincing afterward.

    All I am saying is Howard did not provide enough information for me to believe that was more then his opinion. He did not even say his sources told him or anything.


    It’s always great with you when some media person comes close to agreeing with your stance its definitive without providing information as to how they know. But the second they don’t agree with you then you want proof of the evidence.
    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -11-05-2005 at 08:41 PM.

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    Re: Martz guys

    Quote Originally Posted by STL
    All I am saying is Howard did not provide enough information for me to believe that was more then his opinion. He did not even say his sources told him or anything.
    Dude, if you can't believe it when Balzer says it, there's no point in continuing this discussion.


    It’s always great with you when some media person comes close to agreeing with your stance its definitive without providing information as to how they know. But the second they don’t agree with you then you want proof of the evidence.
    For the record, I've never seen a Balzer statement shown to be wrong.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  6. #81
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Martz guys

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    Dude, if you can't believe it when Balzer says it, there's no point in continuing this discussion.


    For the record, I've never seen a Balzer statement shown to be wrong.
    There is no proof either way is all I am saying. How can we prove this right or wrong. You want me to believe in what he says just because he says something.

    Do you think he has ever been wrong?
    Do you think he has ever speculated about anything?
    Do you ever think he uses his opinion?
    Did you see something that showed he got it from a source?
    Did you see something that said he was told that?
    Did you see something that said he saw a document?
    Did you see something that said he read it in brail?
    Did you see something that said he read someone’s lips about this?
    Did you see something that said he saw something that leads to his conclusion?
    If he had a source don’t you think he would have stated it came from a source?

    I am just curious what did you see that made you believe it was more then just his opinion and that’s all?
    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -11-06-2005 at 12:52 AM.

  7. #82
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    Re: Martz guys

    Quote Originally Posted by STLRAMSFAN
    There is no proof either way is all I am saying. How can we prove this right or wrong. You want me to believe in what he says just because he says something.

    Do you think he has ever been wrong?
    Do you think he has ever speculated about anything?
    Do you ever think he uses his opinion?
    Did you see something that showed he got it from a source?
    Did you see something that said he was told that?
    Did you see something that said he saw a document?
    Did you see something that said he read it in brail?
    Did you see something that said he read someoneís lips about this?
    Did you see something that said he saw something that leads to his conclusion?
    If he had a source donít you think he would have stated it came from a source?

    I am just curious what did you see that made you believe it was more then just his opinion and thatís all?
    Like I said before, if you're not going to accept it from Balzer, there's nothing I can say that will help you.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  8. #83
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    Re: Martz guys

    Talk to Howard Balzer about it.
    NO THANKS!!! Been there, done that. A lot of fans, myself included, paid good money to talk to HB. As far as I'm concerned it was a waste of cash. It was called inside information. Funny thing is the majority of it was available everywhere on the net and the insight left a lot to be desired in my opinion.


    It was Lovie Smith that didn't want London Fletcher, and pushed for Jamie Duncan.
    Why even bring that up? It is an off the cuff remark in response to a question and leaves out some facts that were pertinent to Fletch leaving.

    I wonder if Fans remember Fletch:

    His nickname was Dot Com. He was the heart & soul of the #1 rush defense in 1999. He was a 5'10" stick of dynamite. He played on ST as a starting MLB. He was an animal from sideline to sideline. He could stuff the run, get to the QB and cover a man downfield with his 4.4 speed.

    Let's review some of the facts about Fletch leaving the Rams.

    Fletch was a FA. He was being courted by other teams around the league. Prior to coming to the Rams, Lovie was in tampa as a LB's coach. Lovie was familiar with Duncan. Duncan backed up Brooks. The Bills offered Fletch a ton of cash. The Rams felt they could not afford to match the offer and then went with the cheaper Duncan. It was a money decision and was reported as such at the time.

    Hard to believe the Rams just dumped Fletch on the word of Lovie. It was not "even-money" between Fletch and Duncan. For "even-money" I wonder If Lovie would now dump Urlacher for Thomas? Sounds absurd and it is.



  9. #84
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    Re: Martz guys

    I know this thread is a couple weeks old, and I don't want to reopen the whole can of worms, but I remember there being a question as to where Robert Thomas came from and whether he was a Martz or Lovie pick, and wanted to provide some more information.

    In a discussion on the STL Today forums where posters were weighing the Rams' defense under Marmie and what it was previously under Lovie Smith, one poster claimed he didn't think Lovie had a role in the draft. Bernie had this to say regarding the issue:

    Lovie absolutely had a role in the draft.

    The No. 1 thing: he talked Martz into Robert Thomas -- the "ideal" MLB for his system.

    --B
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  10. #85
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Martz guys

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    Bernie had this to say regarding the issue:
    Which side of his mouth was he talking out of? IMO itís a moot point anyway because Martz as HC had the final say and agreed to it. I am really done with the whole Martz picked this one but not that one debate.

  11. #86
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    Re: Martz guys

    Quote Originally Posted by STLRAMSFAN
    IMO itís a moot point anyway because Martz as HC had the final say and agreed to it.
    Of course, Martz doesn't always have the final say.

    From a John Hadley article in January on the Fletcher situation:

    While the masses have seemingly determined that the loss of London Fletcher was the fault of MartzÖ the fact is Zygmunt and former Rams defensive coordinator Lovie Smith made that decision.

    Martz and Armey wanted to retain Fletcher (keep in mind, Fletcher was one of Armeyís true hidden gems). It was Zygmunt that was hesitant in committing to retain Fletcher. Shortly after Smith told Zygmunt and others in the organization that Jamie Duncan could more than fill Fletcherís roleÖ Zygmunt decided to pass on Fletcher.
    Heck, here's what he has to say about Conwell leaving from the same article:

    To this day, I canít believe that the Rams allowed Ernie Conwell to walk. Conwell had averaged 36 catches, 12 yards per receptions with three touchdowns the two previous seasons while proving a very efficient blockerÖ ultimately the perfect fit in this system.

    The coaching staff wanted to keep Conwell on the depth chart however negotiations soured over time and Conwell ultimately left town for what amounted to less than $100,000 in salary.

    That was the decision of Zygmunt. To this day, the team hasnít sufficiently replaced Conwell.
    Now a note from a December 2004 article on Wistrom:

    In the case of Grant Wistrom, a million dollars led to his departure. The decision had little to do with Martz.

    Rams upper management decided he didn't fit their salary slotting. Without a shred of doubt, I guarantee had the Rams included an extra $1 million to Wistrom's signing bonus; he would've signed on the spot. Instead, Wistrom became one of the hottest free agents on the market landing a deal nearly four times what he would've signed for here in St. Louis.

    Hadley's final conclusion from the January '05 article:

    Simply stated, those that state emphatically that Martz has final say on all personnel are overlooking the fact that Zygmunt retains the negotiating rights. Zygmunt has exercised those rights several times over the past few seasonsÖ many of which have proven costly in the end.

    Yes, there is no question that Martz has issues with some players and at times couldíve handled those situations better. Yes, itís impossible to defend the downward spiral of the special teams under Martz.

    But always remember and never forget when it comes to a number of the marquee departures over the last few years, neither Martz nor Armey made those decisionsÖ it was Zygmunt.
    Like I said, I didn't want to reopen the can of worms, but it seems pretty clear to me that you can't lay all personnel decisions onto Martz's doorstep because of some grand idea that he has the yay/nay vote on everything. It should be clear at this point he doesn't.
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  12. #87
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Martz guys

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    Like I said, I didn't want to reopen the can of worms,
    Then why in hell did you open the can that said can of worms.
    :tongue:

    but it seems pretty clear to me that you can't lay all personnel decisions onto Martz's doorstep because of some grand idea that he has the yay/nay vote on everything. It should be clear at this point he doesn't.
    You only listed players leaving due to big pay days Wistrom, Conwell, and Fletcher. If you don't think the salary cap had a major impact and you want to believe that Martz was pulling for them to keep those guys but they ignored him then thats your opinion. I believe there is a lot of speculation in Hadleys comments and things we really dont know about.

    Lets look at each one individualy:

    Fletcher

    While the masses have seemingly determined that the loss of London Fletcher was the fault of Martz… the fact is Zygmunt and former Rams defensive coordinator Lovie Smith made that decision.
    Where are the facts that when they pulled the trigger it was against Martz will and he had no prior input. Where are the facts that it was Smith and Zygmunt without Martz and did Martz give them the okay to decide on their own or was Lovie bypassing Martz.

    Martz and Armey wanted to retain Fletcher (keep in mind, Fletcher was one of Armey’s true hidden gems).
    NO FACTS SO FAR
    Sounds like speculation when he has to add the statement keep in mind.

    It was Zygmunt that was hesitant in committing to retain Fletcher.
    There are NO FACTS that say Martz was not also hesitant.
    I believe we were pretty cash strapped at the time and Martz does not hold the cash of course the guy holding it is going to be hesitant its a big commitment of money.

    Shortly after Smith told Zygmunt and others in the organization that Jamie Duncan could more than fill Fletcher’s role… Zygmunt decided to pass on Fletcher.
    NO FACTS AT ALL
    Are you suggesting Lovie went behind Martz back he did not say here if Lovie had talked with Martz or talked Martz into it before presenting it. I don't see Lovie as the type of soldier to bypass Martz sorry.


    Conwell

    The coaching staff wanted to keep Conwell on the depth chart however negotiations soured over time and Conwell ultimately left town for what amounted to less than $100,000 in salary.

    That was the decision of Zygmunt. To this day, the team hasn’t sufficiently replaced Conwell.
    Its called salary cap management if the team always gave the player the contract they asked for then we would be in salary cap hell. It sounds like the extra 2.1 million in the first two years was more then we could afford.

    Here is what Pro Football weekly said at the time.

    With signing bonus and salary, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported, Conwell is due to receive about $2.1 million more in the first two years of his contract than the Rams were offering. The Rams will turn to Brandon Manumaleuna and Cam Cleeland to replace Conwell.

    ProFootballWeekly: Is Conwell worth all of that money?
    Wilkening: I don’t know if this is a particularly wise signing for the Saints, particularly seeing how much they paid. Conwell is 31, missed the ’98 season with a knee injury and has been bothered by a couple of other injuries to boot. Is Conwell an upgrade over David Sloan? Yes. He’s also a very capable blocker who can line up in the backfield as an H-back. That said, I wonder if the Saints would have been better off drafting a tight end to groom rather than spend as much as they did on Conwell.
    NO FACTS so far that Martz was not involved in the worth of Conwell.
    Who says they did not talk to Martz about the issue and Martz who drafted Manu thought highly enough of him to not pay Conwell 31 yrs old at the time with a history of injuries as much as they did. Just like Pro Football Weekly suggested the Saints would have been better off drafting a TE than to spend that much on Conwell.

    The first two years we did not want to match the 2.1 million here is what he did. Missed 11 starts out of 32 games.
    2002- Missed 5 starts for Rams
    2003- Missed 6 starts with NO
    2004- Missed 5 starts with NO
    2005 Missed 2 starts already and is still out (Injured in game 8)
    It sounds like Conwell has a history of injuries causing him to miss time not to mention he is 33.


    Wistrom

    Rams upper management decided he didn't fit their salary slotting. Without a shred of doubt, I guarantee had the Rams included an extra $1 million to Wistrom's signing bonus; he would've signed on the spot.
    Guarantee wow speculation NO FACTS and what would we have had to do salary cap wise to keep him. How do any of us know what Martz told them about the DE position? I am sure there is some input from him and the DC coaches.


    Instead, Wistrom became one of the hottest free agents on the market landing a deal nearly four times what he would've signed for here in St. Louis.
    WOW NO FACTS its amazing people can state that he would have signed to stay here when it came down to it for 1/4 the price where is the proof?

    Wistrom
    2004 missed 7 games (First year with Seattle)
    2005 played in every game

    Contract: 6 years $33 million, including a $14 million signing bonus.

    On pace this year for 3 sacks had 3.5 last year worst totals since rookie season 1998 7 years ago.

    On pace for 38 tackles this year had 27 last year worst totals since his second year in the league 1999 6 years. ago

    To sum this can of worms all up this FO has some of the responsibility in signing players. However the HC has the majority of the responsibility in drafting and chosing players he wants the FO to attempt to sign. If he choses the wrong people then thats on him. Also he is a part of the contract negotiations he recomends the resigning or not of players and sometimes it has to do with value for the player at that position.

    ONE FACT is Mike Martz had nothing to do with bringing in those three players because they were all here before Martz was HC.

    Like I said before I am not interested in Martz picked this one but not that one.
    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -11-26-2005 at 02:19 PM.

  13. #88
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    Re: Martz guys

    Quote Originally Posted by STL
    To sum this can of worms all up this FO has some of the responsibility in signing players. However the HC has the majority of the responsibility in drafting and chosing players he wants the FO to attempt to sign. If he choses the wrong people then thats on him. Also he is a part of the contract negotiations he recomends the resigning or not of players and sometimes it has to do with value for the dollar.
    But isn't all this just speculation as well?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  14. #89
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    Re: Martz guys

    Indeed, HUb. Unless STL has better team sources or access than Hadley, Bernie, and Howard Balzer, then it's pretty far-fetched to think that his conflicting notion of how things work in Rams management is more accurate than the reports presented by the people who are regularly interacting with and reporting about the Rams.

    If after multiple reports to the contrary you still can't let go of your version of it, STL, then that's on you. If the reports of three professional journalists who cover the team aren't enough to change your mind, nothing will, nor is the effort worth it.
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  15. #90
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Smile Re: Martz guys

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    Indeed, HUb. Unless STL has better team sources or access than Hadley, Bernie, and Howard Balzer, then it's pretty far-fetched to think that his conflicting notion of how things work in Rams management is more accurate than the reports presented by the people who are regularly interacting with and reporting about the Rams.

    If after multiple reports to the contrary you still can't let go of your version of it, STL, then that's on you. If the reports of three professional journalists who cover the team aren't enough to change your mind, nothing will, nor is the effort worth it.
    It seems like some one is whining. Lately everything I post it seems as though some one in particular has a problem and attempts to take shots at it. Like digging up an old post to try to stoke the fire again come on that horse was dead a long time ago. Sometimes when I post something some one in particular will say I know where you are trying to go with this and trying to come up with more conspiracy theories then Mike Martz. Sometimes when I don’t even post a problem and some one else does concerning a player a certain some one will bring my name into the discussion and say that’s why we keep STLRAMSFAN around. Come on I never said everything they said was not true its just that they had nothing hard to support it and if you would debate my rebuttal on facts then I could support your opinion. There was a lot of information left out and nothing said that they had a source or anything. Pro Football Weekly even contradicted the reason the Rams lost out on the Conwell signing. Even if I were to take everything they said as true which a lot of it looked like speculation to me but if I took it as true then there are still things we don’t know look at my post regarding the issues.

    Let me say this I respect everyone here and when I feel something is not right I will say it. But that is my opinion only and I may totally disagree with some one on an issue but I can come right back and say how great their next post is or how they truly enlightened me to something.

    Man I wish I had that one picture that some one around here had of a guy kicking a dead horse. This was Martz pick or not Martz pick and this was Martz fault not Martz fault is really a dead horse. It doesn’t matter because the FO is going to make the call on Martz and we have already spent a lot of time on this.
    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -11-26-2005 at 11:11 PM.

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