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  1. #16
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    Re: Matt Turk And Punt Coverage

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFan16 View Post
    I honestly don't believe that you can Outkick the Coverage. You just have poor coverage. I don't care if you say "Outkicked the Coverage" the kick was kicked along way and the Special Teamers were too slow getting down there.
    I don't understand this notion at all. By this logic then, you shouldn't think there should ever be an overthrown pass because the receivers are just too slow in getting down field. That's just not correct at all.

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  2. #17
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    Re: Matt Turk And Punt Coverage

    Since when are we talking QB to WR? We are talking punting. We need fast players out there. Do you complain about Turks 59 yard punts? Last year we kicked it 40 yards (if that), now I'm not saying you are but do you?

    I'd rather have a Punter kick the ball and have slow coverage getting down there rather than punt the ball 40 yards and have fast coverage.

    You and me obviously have diffrent concepts. You'd rather have the Punting one way, I would rather have another.
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    Re: Matt Turk And Punt Coverage

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike
    Don't know where you guys got the impression that I think Turk should shorten his punts to any extent. Here is what I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike
    Not good, but something that I would think can be adjusted for by having Turk go for more hang time and being more selective with his punt placement and direction. Getting Turk and the coverage guys all on the same page with timing and strategy should be a priority.
    I thought he did a nice job with the hang time so I'm not sure he can get much better with the hangtime therefore he can't really adjust that. So that's where I took from your post about "shorter punts" because there isn't much else to adjust. You can adjust the placement and direction that should be no problem and not a hard fix. So how I took your post was adjust his distance. I get where you are coming from.
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  4. #19
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    Re: Matt Turk And Punt Coverage

    Quote Originally Posted by ramsbruce
    I get where you are coming from.
    It's all good ramsbruce, you know I respect your opinions whether we agree or not.

  5. #20
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    Re: Matt Turk And Punt Coverage

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFan16 View Post
    Since when are we talking QB to WR?
    I'm talking QB to WR to illustrate how flawed your logic is. You can obviously outkick your coverage just like you can overthrow a WR. Overthrowing a WR isn't the WR's fault for not being fast enough to get to the ball, nor is it the coverage's fault for not being fast enough to catch up with a booming kick. That was the point of the comparison, and is rather hard to refute. Otherwise, I expect you this entire season to criticize our WRs every time there's an overthrown pass.


    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFan16 View Post
    Do you complain about Turks 59 yard punts? Last year we kicked it 40 yards (if that), now I'm not saying you are but do you?
    I have no problem with 59-yard punts, as long as he puts enough hang time under them to allow our coverage to get downfield and in a position to either prevent or minimize a return.

    A 59-yard punt fielded by the opposition with no coverage around him doesn't help us at all. It allows the opponent's punt returner more room to build up speed and maneuver, making him harder to bring down.


    Quote Originally Posted by RamsFan16 View Post
    You and me obviously have diffrent concepts. You'd rather have the Punting one way, I would rather have another.
    To clarify...

    I'd rather fix the punter, who has or should have exact control over the power and accuracy of his kick. By doing so, I would have him kick the ball with a combination of power and hang time that tries to maximize distance while also allowing our existing coverage team to be in a position to minimize any return.

    You, on the other hand, have no problem with the punter, and would rather tell the other 10 guys on the field to try and speed up, a player's speed being a skill that is much harder to improve than one man's kicking style. And even if the coverage can't speed up, you still see no problem with a punter kicking it well beyond their range, even though that allows the return man more room to work.

    Yeah, you're right. We obviously have different approaches to special teams. You apparently want to see more 30+ yard returns from our opposition, whereas I do not.
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  6. #21
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    Re: Matt Turk And Punt Coverage

    As I was watching the game against the Colts or texans or something I remember him hammering a punt that was in the air for about 6 seconds. Now can he do that consistently I don't know but thats some hangtime you want.
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  7. #22
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    Re: Matt Turk And Punt Coverage

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike
    It's all good ramsbruce, you know I respect your opinions whether we agree or not.
    As do I Mike.

    I'm just glad we seem to have a quality punter finally.
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  8. #23
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    Re: Matt Turk And Punt Coverage

    This has been beat to death, almost, but it won't stop me from putting my 2 cents in!

    Wait.. if I get a penny for my thoughts and I put my 2 cents in.. where does that other penny go?

    Anyhow,I digress..

    The punter and th ecoverage need to figure out wnat the best way to minmize returns would be. Booming long punts is great if th ecoverage can keep retunrs to a minimum. If the kick returner gets any momentum it is very hard for the coverage to react to the cuts and jukes of the returner.

    Whatever happened to the "coffin corner" punts..it is a lost art it seems. a nice punt to thesideline would at least minmize return options fo rth efirst few yards anyway and would give coverage a shot at a stop.

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  9. #24
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    Re: Matt Turk And Punt Coverage

    Whatever happened to the "coffin corner" punts..it is a lost art it seems.
    Turk had a great one in the Texans game, but the Green penalty brought it back. Which, of course, led to the Buchanon 38 yard return on the subsequent punt.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  10. #25
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    Re: Matt Turk And Punt Coverage

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    I'm talking QB to WR to illustrate how flawed your logic is. You can obviously out kick your coverage just like you can overthrow a WR. Overthrowing a WR isn't the WR's fault for not being fast enough to get to the ball, nor is it the coverage's fault for not being fast enough to catch up with a booming kick. That was the point of the comparison, and is rather hard to refute. Otherwise, I expect you this entire season to criticize our WRs every time there's an overthrown pass.
    No, actually its quite simple to refute. The QB to WR is apples to the Kicker and coverage oranges. The QB is ONE guy throwing to ONE guy. Of course a QB has to adjust his lead to every WR he throws to. Some are faster than others. Some are more precise in their pass pattern than others. But to equate a punter to a QB kicking to the speed of his coverage team? Ummmm...which one Nick? And how does the punter calculate the resistance on any given play those on coverage come up against as they are trying to get down the field? There you go, lets use that comparison. How in the hell is a QB supposed to adjust his throw to a WR that was delayed and bumped off his pattern at the line by an aggressive corner? Am I going to blame the QB for throwing a timing pass (which 98% of NFL throws are) way out in front of a WR that was delayed getting to his "spot" at the line of scrimmage. HELL NO. I blame the WR for not shedding that bump by the corner from the line of scrimmage quicker.

    I have no problem with 59-yard punts, as long as he puts enough hang time under them to allow our coverage to get down field and in a position to either prevent or minimize a return.
    EXACTLY. Which Turk did. Which brings me back to my original assertion. You cannot out kick your coverage. The only time a kicker is at fault for putting his coverage team at risk is when he kicks a line drive punt with no hang time (I.E. a terrible punt), or one that goes straight up with no distance or out of bounds with no distance. I wasn't there, but the announcers each time commented that Turk made a high and booming kick with very good hang time.

    A 59-yard punt fielded by the opposition with no coverage around him doesn't help us at all. It allows the opponent's punt returner more room to build up speed and maneuver, making him harder to bring down.
    I agree as to the problem, just not your solution. Is it coincidence that our punting AND kick off teams are having trouble covering kick returns? I don't think so. I think that with all the changes that the Rams are going through this year on offense and defense, special teams isn't getting premium time at practice and is suffering for it. I'm not saying that's the wrong thing. In fact, its very understandable under the circumstances. However, once everything gets ironed out on the O and D, I hope Linehan will focus his attention on special teams.

    To clarify...

    I'd rather fix the punter, who has or should have exact control over the power and accuracy of his kick. By doing so, I would have him kick the ball with a combination of power and hang time that tries to maximize distance while also allowing our existing coverage team to be in a position to minimize any return.

    You, on the other hand, have no problem with the punter, and would rather tell the other 10 guys on the field to try and speed up, a player's speed being a skill that is much harder to improve than one man's kicking style. And even if the coverage can't speed up, you still see no problem with a punter kicking it well beyond their range, even though that allows the return man more room to work.

    Yeah, you're right. We obviously have different approaches to special teams. You apparently want to see more 30+ yard returns from our opposition, whereas I do not.
    No Nick...the kicker must concentrate on kicking high and far (except in short punting situations trying to pin the opponent deep in their field), not feathering a kick to accommodate the sorry assed performance of his teammates. Just because the coverage team is not in the immediate vicinity of the returner where he kicks the ball, doesn't mean the returner is going to run the ball back 30+ yards. Let's not exaggerate here buddy. I could do the same with you saying...OK Turk kick it only 40 yards and get only a ten yard return. 60 minus 30 equals 30 net yards. 40 minus 10 equals 30 net yards. HMMMMMM....which of us is right? Neither...its an exaggeration to assume all outcomes from a given delivery. However, I can't believe you are not concerned with the coverage schemes of our special teams coach over the years. It has consistently SUCKED compared to other teams. We have a very good kicker, and finally a very good punter. What's the constant here? THE COVERAGE. Who designs the coverage? The special teams coach (and the head coach must accept responsibility for not making special teams a higher priority).

    Oh....by the way.....have I mentioned how great you're looking these days buddy?
    Last edited by bigredman; -08-24-2006 at 09:44 PM.
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  11. #26
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    Re: Matt Turk And Punt Coverage

    What I would like to see is what happened on Turk's first punt. A booming 50 yarder that had enough hang time to force a fair catch. The coverage guys were there before the ball, forcing the hand in the air and taking all that silly tackling stuff out of the equation.

  12. #27
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    Re: Matt Turk And Punt Coverage

    Quote Originally Posted by bigredman View Post
    No, actually its quite simple to refute.
    Any comparison can be refuted if you look at both situations under a microscope. That's not really the point of a comparison though. The point was that a punter, like a quarterback, needs to be cognisant of the abilities of the players around him. Are you seriously disputing this?

    If that's your position - that under normal circumstances, a punter's only goal in terms of kick power is to boot the ball as hard as he can with no regard for the skill of the rest of the unit - then that's a notion I'd have to strongly disagree with.

    Like most jobs in the NFL, I really don't believe it's quite that simple.


    Quote Originally Posted by bigredman View Post
    You cannot out kick your coverage.
    Honestly, I don't even know what this is being debated anymore.

    r8rh8rmike knocked this one out of the park in this post by producing a quote from Norv Turner regarding punters outkicking their coverage.

    You know I love you BRM, but I'm going to have to go with the experienced NFL coach on this one.

    For me, the bottom line is this. When Turk booms these near 60-yard kicks, he runs the risk of outkicking our coverage because, if you go back and watch the Texans game, you'll see inconsistency in how well our coverage team can get downfield. You can argue that it's the coverage team's fault for not getting down their fast enough, but it's far easier for Turk to adjust his kick than it is for the ten other guys to somehow try to increase their natural speed.

    I love seeing these huge punts, but I would much rather Turk put more hang time under those long distance kicks to allow more time for our unit to get downfield. If that's not possible, then the only other option I see is to have Turk take some distance off the kick so that our unit does not have to travel as far. This idea that Turk should keep booming kicks regardless of our coverage team's ability or inability to get down field in time strikes me as irresponsible. If the coverage team can't consistently get in position on 59-yard kicks, then we have to adjust to what our players can do.
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  13. #28
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    Re: Matt Turk And Punt Coverage

    Not to interrupt Nick and Red, but.......how great is it that our punter debate is whether or not he SHOULD punt the ball 59 yards?!?!?

    The normal punting debates involving 59 yards would be refering to the opposition's average return, not our punts.

    I just love the fact we can actually have this debate. Carry on.
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  14. #29
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    Maybe Truk should be kicking them out of bounds. Then we wouldn't have to worry about coverage.

    Oh....by the way.....have I mentioned how great you're looking these days buddy?
    We'll have none of that Broke Back Mountain stuff around here.
    JUST WIN ONE FOR THE FANS


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  15. #30
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    Re: Matt Turk And Punt Coverage

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    I love seeing these huge punts, but I would much rather Turk put more hang time under those long distance kicks to allow more time for our unit to get downfield. If that's not possible, then the only other option I see is to have Turk take some distance off the kick so that our unit does not have to travel as far. This idea that Turk should keep booming kicks regardless of our coverage team's ability or inability to get down field in time strikes me as irresponsible. If the coverage team can't consistently get in position on 59-yard kicks, then we have to adjust to what our players can do.
    I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Nick put it in the proper perspective. Turk and the coverage team need to balance their strengths and weaknesses and work in unison to be affective, bottom line. Hang time, directional changes to get the return man off his spot, using the sideline to limit return lanes, whatever, something has got to give so our coverage has a chance. Continuing to create situations where the return team gets the advantage of a substantial cushion to set up with will lead to nothing but trouble.

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