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  1. #46
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    I think that's a hindsight admission. Of course if you lose a game, get criticized heavily for it, and then you're asked if you should have done something differently, you're going to say yes since what you did didn't work.
    Nick, it's hard for me to call it a hindsight admission. It was an admission and I have to take it at face value. I think Martz had a chance to rationally think about the end of the game and realized he made a mistake. After the Super Bowl 36 loss when later questioned about his decision to try and pass into the teeth of the Pats defense while getting away from the run, he didn't say "we should have run more", he said "that's not what we do". I don't see a history of Martz hindsight admissions, it's just not his style IMHO.

    Faulk was averaging under three yards a carry that day. His longest run of the day was eight yards. How Faulk is going to run it in from the Carolina 19-yard line is a mystery to me. I really doubt you're going to pick up twenty yards on a draw against this defense, who proved in OT they weren't as tired as one might think.
    As far as using Faulk at the end of the Carolina game, I think it was definitely worth a couple of tries. It was a different Faulk in the fourth quarter and an entirely different Ram offensive mindset and attitude. That combined with a worn out , demoralized Carolina defense made it a good bet in my eyes.

    We can agree to disagree.


  2. #47
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    I think some are still missing the point!!!!!

    Spiking the ball was still the move to make with only one timeout. It was obvious he didn't have a freaking plan of attack with two minutes to go. He lolly gagged his team down the field and when a real-time heat of the moment decision was needed, he failed miserably. Say what you will about kicking the FG, but Martz screwed the pooch and proved he didn't have a freaking clue when he ran the clock down and burned the last TO. Has nothing to do with protection or confidence or any other damn thing except Martz' lunacy under pressure. One of the all-time bonehead moves in Rams history. No way around it.



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  3. #48
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike
    As far as using Faulk at the end of the Carolina game, I think it was definitely worth a couple of tries. It was a different Faulk in the fourth quarter and an entirely different Ram offensive mindset and attitude. That combined with a worn out , demoralized Carolina defense made it a good bet in my eyes.

    We can agree to disagree.
    Faulk rushed four times for seven yards in the fourth quarter. Therefore, it doesn't seem as if running it a few more times with Faulk would have been productive, which is why I question if Martz is truly being rational in his retrospective admission by saying they should have run it in. Faulk was able to make an impact in this game as a receiver. In the fourth quarter, he caught six passes for 51 yards. If Faulk was going to be used at all, it should have been in catching a pass.

    But wait a minute. The Rams scored only one touchdown out of five red zone attempts, and that TD was the result of a two minute pounding. The Rams didn't have that kind of time this go 'round. But anyways, that's 20% of their attempts leading to the endzone. Meanwhile, of Bulger's 46 attempts, nearly 7% were interceptions. So, ~7% chance of an INT while only 20% chance of the game-winning TD, not even factoring some of the other risks associated with taking a shot here. As a gambling man, I can tell you I don't like those odds at all.

    So yeah, we'll just have to disagree here.
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  4. #49
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter
    I think some are still missing the point!!!!!
    What was that about Mr. My-Opinion-Matters-Most-Because-It's-Mine? There's nothing to support any of the claims you made about Martz having no plan, but yet you say Martz proved this or that or how there's no other way around it, and the rest of us are missing the point. The real fact of the matter is your post is opinion, just like anyone else's.
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  5. #50
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Nick, you pick some truly uphill battles. I'm curious if you remember the thoughts going through your head when the game was going on. I know that I wasn't sitting back in my chair thinking: "ah, good. Let's run the clock out and go for the tie". It was more along the lines of: "what the hell's going on? Why aren't they running a play?!?". I haven't talked to anyone who thought much different. I can't claim to have my finger on the pulse of what "everyone" feels, but I do know everyone I've talked to were just laughing at Martz and his bonehead decision.

  6. #51
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    At the time, I was confused as well because I was emotionally wrapped up in the game. It was only after I reevaluated the circumstances of the entire game did I understand the logic of playing for OT.

    When your protection schemes and playcalling in the red zone has been suspect all day and the defense has come up with two interceptions already, why take the risk and go for a slim chance touchdown when you could tie and would only have to get within the 35-yard line or so, which they'd been doing all day basically? You know your offense can do the latter against this defense, but they'd only done the former once in five attempts, and that successful attempt had taken more time than what the Rams currently had on the clock.

    Let's ignore the turnover factor for a second. What if Martz lines Faulk up as a receiver and while trying to make an acrobatic catch Marshall gets hit hard and has to come out of the game? What if Bulger gets blitzed, stands in and takes a throw, and then gets nailed and has to come out? Where does that leave us in OT if those shots for the win are unsuccessful (which to that point was an 80% liklihood)? Warner or Gordon, cold off the bench, to try and rally this team for a win? Again, I don't like those chances.

    It just amazes me how often I heard Martz criticized for being too risky and not taking the points in previous games, as I mentioned, and now when he does take the points and go for a later win and more conservative style, he's still criticized. He's truly damned if he does or damned if he doesn't. If he would have lost taking a shot at the endzone, I'm very sure that everyone criticizing him in this thread would have been saying how he should have taken the field goal and not been his aggressive self for once.

    That's just the way things are. When you're not successful, people will attack what you did, regardless of how logical or illogical it seems, for the mere fact that you lost. If the Rams went for the OT win and actually won, I seriously doubt anyone would be critiquing him for his tactics. But when it's an L in the column, it's time to pick apart the gameplan. Anything that could have been different should have been different, and it's Martz's fault for the completely foolishness of how it went down.
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  7. #52
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    When you're not successful, people will attack what you did, regardless of how logical or illogical it seems, for the mere fact that you lost. If the Rams went for the OT win and actually won, I seriously doubt anyone would be critiquing him for his tactics. But when it's an L in the column, it's time to pick apart the gameplan. Anything that could have been different should have been different, and it's Martz's fault for the completely foolishness of how it went down.
    Nick I see that you want to support Martz on this one, but I find it hard to believe that you can't see this particular moment as bad decision making. You do realize that Martz is the head coach for the Rams, and he is paid millions of dollars to make the right decisions to give the Rams the best chance to win. The best personnel decisions, the best game time decisions. He has received praise at times, and he SHOULD receive criticism from the fans and press when he makes boneheaded moves. It is just part of the job. Martz will receive criticism. He should expect it and he should let it roll off.

    I think he deserves some criticism over a loss in the playoffs when there were opportunities to move the offense that were not used. They had momentum building at the end of the 4th quarter and they let it go. I have not seen a good two minute drill out of Martz and that was the perfect time to use a two minute drill. It's something you plan for and something you save your timeouts for.
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  8. #53
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    Nick, you pick some truly uphill battles. I'm curious if you remember the thoughts going through your head when the game was going on. I know that I wasn't sitting back in my chair thinking: "ah, good. Let's run the clock out and go for the tie". It was more along the lines of: "what the hell's going on? Why aren't they running a play?!?". I haven't talked to anyone who thought much different. I can't claim to have my finger on the pulse of what "everyone" feels, but I do know everyone I've talked to were just laughing at Martz and his bonehead decision.
    You obviously haven't heard Balzer talk about it then have you mok?

  9. #54
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by UtterBlitz
    They had momentum building at the end of the 4th quarter and they let it go.
    This is one of the main arguments I see when people support taking a shot at the endzone, but frankly, momentum means nothing if you haven't been able to achieve the desired goal. Did the Rams not have momentum after stopping Carolina on their first drive and moving the ball over 80 yards on their own first drive of the game? Did the Rams not have momentum after Tommy Polley intercepted Delhomme on Carolina's second drive and took the ball back nearly 40 yards? Yes they did, but did they get into the endzone? Nope.

    Momentum yields little if your team hasn't been able to take advantage of their opportunities. The Rams came up short multiple times in the red zone earlier in the day, even when they had momentum. There's little to believe that something different would have happened toward the end of regulation when the Rams once again entered the red zone with momentum. Actually entering the red zone hadn't been a problem for this team. It was getting the touchdown that had been, and it was a big problem. I don't see how you can advocate that they should have gone for the TD because they had momentum when they failed under those same standards earlier in the day.

    That's why I see it as good decision making. The Rams were fairly inept at scoring touchdowns in the red zone that day -- heck, one could make the argument that their ability to score touchdowns in the red zone was questionable all year -- yet Wilkins was on fire. In overtime, the Rams would only need a field goal, which they had no problem getting in position to get. At the end of regulation, the Rams would have needed a touchdown to win, something they'd been struggling to attain all day. It seems like a pretty clear chain of logic here to me, so I'm not sure why my perspective is so hard to believe.
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  10. #55
    thoey's Avatar
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    But, with momentum at the end of the game, you have worn down your opponent. So, the chances of breaking the big one increase with every chance you take. We had one bullet left in the chamber and he decided to give up. We can't win now, but I know we can win in over time. Well, I am sure he thought we could win before the game started too.

    The thing that keeps me liking Martz is his gunslinger attitude. We are going to come out and walk it down the field on you. We are going to load up five receivers and make you try to guess which one is going to score on you. We are going to line up four and then dump it to Marshall as he runs through your confused D. He has this confident and ****y attitude that dares you to try and stop him. And it worked. Well, for three years.

    Now, he is conservative. Instead of Max-Q, we got Max protect. He is not known for that and that is why people are questioning him. Do what you do best. If you don't have the tools to do it, get them. It's like asking a heart surgeon to ply his trade given a can opener and a bag of rubber-bands.

    For those wondering why this is still being debated, just remember, it was that last game we played. I am sure it will start to fade once we play the next game...

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    What was that about Mr. My-Opinion-Matters-Most-Because-It's-Mine?
    Nick, I am glad you came to this board. A lot of the insight you bring is excellent. But when it gets heated, you too come across the way you are accusing Ferter of being. Hell, we all do...
    This space for rent...

  11. #56
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    This is one of the main arguments I see when people support taking a shot at the endzone, but frankly, momentum means nothing if you haven't been able to achieve the desired goal. Did the Rams not have momentum after stopping Carolina on their first drive and moving the ball over 80 yards on their own first drive of the game? Did the Rams not have momentum after Tommy Polley intercepted Delhomme on Carolina's second drive and took the ball back nearly 40 yards? Yes they did, but did they get into the endzone? Nope.

    Momentum yields little if your team hasn't been able to take advantage of their opportunities. The Rams came up short multiple times in the red zone earlier in the day, even when they had momentum. There's little to believe that something different would have happened toward the end of regulation when the Rams once again entered the red zone with momentum. Actually entering the red zone hadn't been a problem for this team. It was getting the touchdown that had been, and it was a big problem. I don't see how you can advocate that they should have gone for the TD because they had momentum when they failed under those same standards earlier in the day.

    That's why I see it as good decision making. The Rams were fairly inept at scoring touchdowns in the red zone that day -- heck, one could make the argument that their ability to score touchdowns in the red zone was questionable all year -- yet Wilkins was on fire. In overtime, the Rams would only need a field goal, which they had no problem getting in position to get. At the end of regulation, the Rams would have needed a touchdown to win, something they'd been struggling to attain all day. It seems like a pretty clear chain of logic here to me, so I'm not sure why my perspective is so hard to believe.
    Nick, I hear what you're saying, but does any of that excuse Martz from at least trying? I mean we had close to a minute left and a TO. I think what some of us can't swallow is, why didn't Martz at least take a shot? Now you said..
    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    But anyways, that's 20% of their attempts leading to the endzone. Meanwhile, of Bulger's 46 attempts, nearly 7% were interceptions.
    So going with these stats, if they had gone for it...
    20% - game ends with Ram TD
    7% - Bulger throws an Int.
    0% - Faulk fumbles
    73% - We don't get the TD, take a timeout, kick FG, go into OT

    Which means, if Martz goes for it, there's a 93% we don't lose in regulation. Now I'm no gambling man, but that sounds pretty good to me. Now, honestly, I think it is easy to read too much into various stats, percentages & probabilities, but all this still begs the question that some of us can not get resolved...why wouldn't Martz at least take a shot?
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  12. #57
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    All the rational about the Martz decision is good for discussion, as are the percentages and theories on momentum, but after all the speculation is said and done, it all comes back to the man himself and HIS admission that HE made a mistake by not going for it. I just don't understand what more anyone needs to settle the issue. Martz owned up to the mistake which is admirable, hpoefully he learns from it and becomes a better coach.

  13. #58
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by thoey
    But, with momentum at the end of the game, you have worn down your opponent. So, the chances of breaking the big one increase with every chance you take.
    How exactly do we know Carolina was worn down? They'd been allowing the Rams to reach the red zone all day, so for the Rams to once again get back into the red zone with the clock ticking toward the end of regulation doesn't show me that Carolina was worn down. Heck, the drive before, they kept the Rams outside the endzone for two minutes after St. Louis had entered the red zone. That doesn't sound like a tired defense to me.

    Besides, they couldn't have been that worn down seeing as how they came out in OT and stopped Faulk completely, held the Rams to a critical third down, and then came up with a huge interception on the next St. Louis drive.


    Quote Originally Posted by thoey
    Nick, I am glad you came to this board. A lot of the insight you bring is excellent. But when it gets heated, you too come across the way you are accusing Ferter of being. Hell, we all do...
    Let me elaborate on the point I was trying to make. When I take part in a debate, I try to use factual evidence to support the position I'm on. In this case, I've used red zone statistics from previous drives in the game, Faulk's rushing totals, and interception numbers to make my point. For someone to tell me that I'm missing the real point and then explain to me what the point is -- and that point is nothing but their opinion with nothing to back it up -- then that's somewhat insulting to me. My post was not an accusation to Ferter as much as it was a notice from me to tell him that, from my shoes, he's doing exactly what he criticized me of doing.


    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    Nick, I hear what you're saying, but does any of that excuse Martz from at least trying?
    If you're still asking why we didn't try, then no, I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying. The whole point and position of my debate has been that it was better not to risk a shot at the endzone.

    You keep asking the same question and I keep giving you the same answer: the reason Martz didn't take a shot, in my opinion, is because the Rams had not found much success in the red zone all day and the risk was too great. I don't know how else I can possibly explain why I feel the Rams didn't go for a win there.
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  14. #59
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike
    Martz owned up to the mistake which is admirable, hpoefully he learns from it and becomes a better coach.
    Martz caving to criticism and saying what he did was a mistake shows weakness, IMO. There are two large criticisms of Martz that I can remember hearing in some of my many Rams discussions, and they are (1) he's too wrapped up in the game emotionally and (2) he's detrimentally aggressive. He showed the ability to overcome both of these in that one moment and, unfortunately, it didn't work out. But he pulled himself away from the emotion of the game, the same emotion that made most fans want to go for the knock-out blow in those final seconds, and made a smart decision based on team performance earlier in the game, and went for a conservative route.

    Hopefully he will become a better head coach, but I don't think saying that this was a mistake and he should have gone for it will bring that about at all. It was a controversial move and I think his admission was made based on the negative reaction to what he did -- a negative reaction that was brought about only because his tactic didn't pay off in the end. As I've said about a dozen times thus far, I sincerely doubt anyone would be criticizing him had the Rams won that game. In fact, I'm sure a lot would be praising his decision.
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  15. #60
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Gotta love your tenacity on this Nick although I really think your reaching in trying to speak for Martz.

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